Medically diagnosed NPD? anyone?

[JR]

has anyone ever had a Medically diagnosis NPD for the narcissist(s) that have been or are in your life? I cannot believe that a true narcissist would ever even admit they may have a personality disorder in the first place since everyone else has the problem not them. im interested to know if anyone has had someone with this disorder diagnosed by a Medical psychiatric professional and how did it go and turnout if they were tested to be positive for NPD? Its hard me to believe they could be because they would fool the Doctor and lie to them with the fake mask that they are alright its him/her who got the problem, and my feelings(facts) can prove it. I'd love to hear any stories about this and what happened as far as medications or treatments they were prescribed.

[SonofThunder]

Hi JR and another warm welcome to Out of the FOG.

I believe my undiagnosed PD father and undiagnosed soon to be ex-wife, repetitively demonstrate many of the PD traits in the current diagnostic and statistical manual used in psychiatry. 

Both of them have been to individual psychotherapy and neither were diagnosed with a PD.  Imo, these PD folks can be masters at snowballing a therapist as you alluded. 

Imo, a PD diagnosis actually can create a greater problem for the nonPD person in the relationship.  Imo PD's thrive on flipping the script so that after they have played the persecutor role to antagonize and control, they slide right into the victim role when any pushback occurs, claiming the nonPD is the persecutor in the pushback. A diagnosis imo, provides the PD with a new excuse as to why they treat us as they do and that they are the victim of a disorder, so we should shut up and suck it up.  Imo a PD will use a new PD diagnosis as a weapon, creating a wider berth for abuse. 

You may read it said many times here at Out of the FOG that the diagnosis doesn't matter, because it's only the traits experienced that really matter and we know what we experience.  The toolbox (tab found at the top of every page here at the forum) is also what really matters for the non, attempting to minimize the severity, duration and frequency of the experiences, by self protecting using the tools. 

My understanding is that medications may help to take a little edge off a PD, and that DBT therapy is the modality sometimes used with diagnosed PD's.  But, as you stated, many PD's will not last in therapy and some therapists don't last with a PD either.  One can only work with what they are presented. 

Glad you are here with us.  I highly recommend reading through the top 100 traits found at the Personality Disorders tab and staking your tent down at the Toolbox tab for learning and practice, practice, practice! 

I will encourage you to not focus on any diagnosis or hope of beneficial medical treatment, but rather, focus on removing yourself in all available ways using the tools to reduce and/or eliminate yourself as a supply for the PD.  It's surely a difficult trail to navigate, but it's imo the best route, because we are in control of ourselves.  PD's in a parasite fashion, will get supply from available host(s), so when hosting steadily reduces, the PD will find supply dwindling and fight harder to not lose a host. 

Eventually, should the hungry PD not be able to reverse the diminishing supply, they may have to turn to others as supply. All the while we nons steadily improve on self-protection. 

SoT

[JR]

thanx for response and everything you said was spot on as far as gaining any hope of a medical diagnosis that may benefit a victim of these people, the only help i really see in it is to find people that they themselves have had a situation with narcissists and fully understand and believe the things I've said that i've been through with it. I've only told about 2 people i trust about it, my Doctor(diabetes) and a close friend whom is a very empathic person about my findings and dealings with people in my family that I truely believe are pretty much full on NPD none of these people seem to believe me or consider it their problem to deal with, thats why forums like this are a Godsend. I was hoping to find an in-person support group in my area but it seems that only are webinar types with a fee, available in my area or pay a therapist for a one on one, which is tough because i've blown through alot on my money being an unpaid caregiver to my narc parent.

[treesgrowslowly]

The people in my life who would qualify for an NPD diagnosis, would never go and get one. And if they got diagnosed, they would never tell anyone. So it is pointless in my experience, to hope for a diagnosis.

Trust your gut. You've lived with their antics longer than any doctor would anyways. Once we've spent a few years with someone so self-centered and selfish, we can call a duck a duck. Even if no one believes us. They have a pattern of selfish, entitled behavior. I hope you find some support. Survivors of Narc abuse have a lot in common with people who attend Coda meetings, if those are in your area.

Trees

[JR]

The people in my life who would qualify for an NPD diagnosis, would never go and get one. And if they got diagnosed, they would never tell anyone. So it is pointless in my experience, to hope for a diagnosis.

Trust your gut. You've lived with their antics longer than any doctor would anyways. Once we've spent a few years with someone so self-centered and selfish, we can call a duck a duck. Even if no one believes us. They have a pattern of selfish, entitled behavior. I hope you find some support. Survivors of Narc abuse have a lot in common with people who attend Coda meetings, if those are in your area.

Trees

thanx for the response, again I think your spot on with your characterizations and that the Medical psychiatric profession either cannot do anything with these people and can only give the victims token help with it as far as I can see. In my Narc parents case she sees a Psychiatrist whenever she wants not a regular schedule and is being treated for depression and anxiety I've never asked this Doctor about a NPD diagnosis and he has never mentioned any to me. Maybe they aren't allowed to discuss their patients conditions to others because of privacy laws? or because the Narc has him drinking the Kool-Aid of BS and lying manipulation that Narcs are so good at, basically her Psychiatrist only see's her maybe only 3-4 hours max per year, and Im dealing 24/7 behind closed doors with this, if it wasn't for GOOGLE search i probably may have never figured it out myself, all the boxs check for NPD with other family members included, plus enablers, flying monkeys etc.

[LemonLime]

In my experience as a physician (non-psychiatrist) I can say that we don't enjoy dealing with the N's anymore than anyone else does.  In addition, most of us would not recognize the diagnosis given our limited contact with the N (short appointment times these days) and wouldn't know what to do if we did recognize the diagnosis.   It feels like there would be no incentive to bring up this kind of diagnosis to the N.  We'd get our heads bitten off and probably excoriated on Yelp.

If they act up in our office, we hold our breath and hope they leave soon and "fire" us as their doctors.

The psychiatrists are probably much more brave but they have more time.  My guess is most get fired by their N patients.

I have found the YouTube psychologists who specialize in N's to be quite good.  Dr. Ramani, Les Carter, etc.
I think Jerry Wise is excellent for dealing with self-differentiation which was essential to me.

[JR]

when Narcs act up in the outside world(in public) most people just consider this kind of behavior as stubbornness or a  Difficult person, when I take her to  Doctor or anywhere else and she "acts up" I'm there trying to patch things up or explain away when they use "word salad" talk as like an interpreter would do, just ordering lunch would leave the waitress baffled by how they order lunch, like the lunch special has certain things with the order and the entitled narc thinks they can get any variation they want just because they are so special ,they live in a world where the only rules are the ones they want to live by.
another good YOUTUBE  narc channel is NARCDAILY pretty spot on and THE LITTLE SHAMAN these are pretty much no nonsense when it comes to splaining about Narcissistic behavior and life.

[Liketheducks]

Back in the mid 80's my Dad was court ordered counseling as a result of a restraining order placed due to DV.  He pointed a gun at me.    At the time, he was diagnosed bi-polar (but I think that was about as trendy as NPD is today at the time) with schizoid tendencies.   Mom wasn't ordered counseling at the time.

Fast forward to 2022, when I was meeting a new counselor for myself.   Mine was retiring and had referred me.   I've stayed in maybe a monthly session as an adult, because I am TRYING to break this cycle as much as I can. I knew I had PTSD and or likely C-PTSD, but I don't think the US diagnostic book was recognizing C-PTSD.  My brothers and I have all struggled with anxiety and depression.   Sadly, I lost one brother to suicide just last year. New counselor, with the caveat that she's not seeing or treating my parents, said that likely dad was NPD of some variety and mom was BPD of some variety, just by virtue of me.   My symptoms and issues were textbook for a child of that pairing.   

At this point, it was validating at the time.   Though, I know telling either of my parents that would never make a difference to them.   They're not going to change.   I'm choosing to focus on the totally unfair, but all my responsibility, task of healing from what their dysfunction did.   They're no fun to deal with, but I CAN keep myself safe.   Coming here and getting help has been an absolute Godsend.

[JR]

Back in the mid 80's my Dad was court ordered counseling as a result of a restraining order placed due to DV.  He pointed a gun at me.    At the time, he was diagnosed bi-polar (but I think that was about as trendy as NPD is today at the time) with schizoid tendencies.   Mom wasn't ordered counseling at the time.

Fast forward to 2022, when I was meeting a new counselor for myself.   Mine was retiring and had referred me.   I've stayed in maybe a monthly session as an adult, because I am TRYING to break this cycle as much as I can. I knew I had PTSD and or likely C-PTSD, but I don't think the US diagnostic book was recognizing C-PTSD.  My brothers and I have all struggled with anxiety and depression.   Sadly, I lost one brother to suicide just last year. New counselor, with the caveat that she's not seeing or treating my parents, said that likely dad was NPD of some variety and mom was BPD of some variety, just by virtue of me.   My symptoms and issues were textbook for a child of that pairing.   

At this point, it was validating at the time.   Though, I know telling either of my parents that would never make a difference to them.   They're not going to change.   I'm choosing to focus on the totally unfair, but all my responsibility, task of healing from what their dysfunction did.   They're no fun to deal with, but I CAN keep myself safe.   Coming here and getting help has been an absolute Godsend.

I believe every word of your Narc experience hopefully that gives you some relief from the abuse, my issue is there is really no one i could go to and tell about this abuse that would believe what Im telling them! Because Narcs mask their Toxic behavior from the outside world very well and lay it on the victim behind closed doors where normal people  will not see and pickup on it. very frustrating that they know exactly what they are doing and exposure to others is frightening to them but they will do the leg work to make sure others think that your actually the problem here. I agree this forum is a Godsend there is no other online forum that lets victims vent about this horrible disorder. in a big way it helps being able get it off your shoulders with people you know are on your side.

[treesgrowslowly]

when Narcs act up in the outside world(in public) most people just consider this kind of behavior as stubbornness or a  Difficult person, when I take her to  Doctor or anywhere else and she "acts up" I'm there trying to patch things up or explain away when they use "word salad" talk as like an interpreter would do, just ordering lunch would leave the waitress baffled by how they order lunch, like the lunch special has certain things with the order and the entitled narc thinks they can get any variation they want just because they are so special ,they live in a world where the only rules are the ones they want to live by.
another good YOUTUBE  narc channel is NARCDAILY pretty spot on and THE LITTLE SHAMAN these are pretty much no nonsense when it comes to splaining about Narcissistic behavior and life.

Oh geez...we have the same parent. Lol. Its crazy how they act in restaurants.

Also I want to say that I too, used GOOGLE to learn that I had a parent with NPD. No one else told me that, just a google search and found a website that described my life to me.

It is sad, there is no actual treatment to cure their selfishness. If you learn about how NPD develops, you realize it is baked into their mentality - for good. I'm very grateful I don't have NPD. They act like they are fine and we are the problem, but their life does not look good. The disorder that prevents them from getting help. Their relationships are train wrecks.

Trees

[JR]

when Narcs act up in the outside world(in public) most people just consider this kind of behavior as stubbornness or a  Difficult person, when I take her to  Doctor or anywhere else and she "acts up" I'm there trying to patch things up or explain away when they use "word salad" talk as like an interpreter would do, just ordering lunch would leave the waitress baffled by how they order lunch, like the lunch special has certain things with the order and the entitled narc thinks they can get any variation they want just because they are so special ,they live in a world where the only rules are the ones they want to live by.
another good YOUTUBE  narc channel is NARCDAILY pretty spot on and THE LITTLE SHAMAN these are pretty much no nonsense when it comes to splaining about Narcissistic behavior and life.

Oh geez...we have the same parent. Lol. Its crazy how they act in restaurants.

Also I want to say that I too, used GOOGLE to learn that I had a parent with NPD. No one else told me that, just a google search and found a website that described my life to me.

It is sad, there is no actual treatment to cure their selfishness. If you learn about how NPD develops, you realize it is baked into their mentality - for good. I'm very grateful I don't have NPD. They act like they are fine and we are the problem, but their life does not look good. The disorder that prevents them from getting help. Their relationships are train wrecks.

Trees

yes i can remember how one day i got very confused about the lying,false perceptions about situations, saying things that had no bearing on reality, telling me something that i knew wasn't actually true(gaslighting)  from people who are supposed to be adults aged 60,64and 84 years old and went on GOOGLE search and typed in PEOPLE WHO CONSISTENTLY LIE(for no reason) answer was Narcissism and I followed the breadcrumbs to this point today. And that AHHAAA moment when I knew I found the needle in a haystack which I wasn't to supposed to have found. Also found out that I'm the Scapegoat which also explains why i treated so differently, and badly in family and was(am) angry about it, I wish there was some kinda of justice i could heap on these creatures but what im finding out is that they like confrontation with those they think have maligned them somehow to release their toxicity on others(supply) and will make every effort to harass, drive wedges between folks to the bitter end and think they won something.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi JR,

This forum has been a godsend for a lot of us as we realize that AHA about our NPD parents and others. But I think NPD parents in specific, really do a lot to cause so many problems for their adult children. There are different forms of Narcissism and some narc parents are more retaliative and do more hoovering, while others go full discard and never contact their adult children again.

In this forum, we have probably seen it all (or close) in regards to NPD abuse and recovery from that abuse.

We also have people with the whole wide range of experiences from daily contact to low contact to very low contact to no contact. Back when I realized I had to go NC to save my self, no one was talking about it yet. There were few places online that talked at all about narcissistic parents. Therapists said really stupid things about it to me over the years. Today there is more and more understanding out there, but considering there was no understanding even 20 years ago, in most places, we still have a lot of progress to make so that more people understand what our lives have been like.

Figuring out what to do as the adult child of a Narc parent is not easy. I've been so grateful for this forum so that we can offer ideas and support. I'm glad you found us.

Trees

[firepoetry]

My Nex is currently stating that they are a narcissist, and stated this to our daughter's therapist, but also simultaneously believes and accuses "EVERYONE" of being a narcissist / sociopath.

He is a victim-based narcissist, but is trying to reinvent himself as the savior narcissist. He has recently gotten "training" to be a peer therapist, and is now the expert that is set to "help" everyone else out of their narcissistic trauma. So, while uncommon, this exists as well.

Also, make no mistake, he can't listen to anyone, empathize with anyone, let alone help them. So I believe that he finds that this is a new way to manipulate and control vulnerable people. Further, in about 5-10 years, there is going to be a mass of people stating that peer counseling is trauma because narcissists have taken over that realm, too.

[JR]

yes this is the only free type forum;resource where you can actually interact with others that have the same situation which is such a relief, because no one else in the outside world could never believe that this behavior actually exists, of the 2 people i've actually told/mentioned this irrational behavior to, it seems like the attitude is you dont actually have the medical credentials to evaluate and determine a NPD diagnosis, they think your playing Dr. Phil. or something, mostly because they dont see it or are'nt abused by it therefore it is'nt, kinda like human nature if it doesnt effect me but does effect you too bad for you, thats some tough love there The biggest problem with these NPD people is the lack of self awareness and empathy towards others is horrendous where they cannot even see the toxic behavior they thrown on others which is how they regulate themselves, like if they have a bad day(many) its YOU that made me unhappy therefore some sort of retribution and punishment needs to be administered to you for that slight. Nobody in the non-narcissist would ever believe adults like these could ever be so rude,toxic,nasty because they never see,its the false mask that narcissists use to fool others into believing they are mr./mrs. niceguy.

[JR]

My Nex is currently stating that they are a narcissist, and stated this to our daughter's therapist, but also simultaneously believes and accuses "EVERYONE" of being a narcissist / sociopath.

He is a victim-based narcissist, but is trying to reinvent himself as the savior narcissist. He has recently gotten "training" to be a peer therapist, and is now the expert that is set to "help" everyone else out of their narcissistic trauma. So, while uncommon, this exists as well.

Also, make no mistake, he can't listen to anyone, empathize with anyone, let alone help them. So I believe that he finds that this is a new way to manipulate and control vulnerable people. Further, in about 5-10 years, there is going to be a mass of people stating that peer counseling is trauma because narcissists have taken over that realm, too.

i think the narcissist always want to play the hero, like the knight on the white horse coming to the damsels aid, there's only black and white in their world, either your the good guy or your the bad guy, so that must mean your always the bad guy because they are always going to be the hero, and what happens to the bad guys? they must be punished>with toxic abuse.

[treesgrowslowly]

JR,

That is a really important point. People with empathy, have a really hard time believing that someone behaves like the Narc parent does. They discount it "no, that can't be true". They wear rose colored glasses. Wait until a narc comes into their life and almost destroys it - and then they will be forced to see what destruction this personality causes.

The narcs in my life work to hide their full blown abusive stuff so that most people they know, do not know how they behave behind closed doors (or when they are driving and no one knows how reckless they are).

If there are people in your life who deny that your parents behave like this, you have to decide if you think you can get through to them or if you want to let them stay naive. It is naive to not realize there are narcissists who wrek havoc on the lives of people around them. You and I and others here were forced out of that naive stuff because we had these parents. We got screwed, in the lottery of who your parents are. No one chooses their parents. People with non-narcissistic parents tend to believe we all had their parents! You try to tell them otherwise, and they go into all that stuff you said - telling you you're wrong, you want to be Dr. Phil etc...

Everyone on this forum with narc parents, has had to deal with the naive denial that is out there.

The truth is that if some of the people in your life, believe you, and start to listen and educate themselves on what you have had to live with, your entire life, they would need to update their own naive beliefs about how they think the world works. And so most people are not going to do that are they?

You and I could point out to these people that the only thing they 'did' differently is that they were born to more healthy parents than you and I were. But I don't think we can have that conversation with most people. Maybe if you are close with certain people they will be willing to see your side, without accusing you of acting like Dr. phil. I think it scares them if they are forced to think about what we live with. Even some therapists get scared when we talk about what we actually lived with. If they had caring parents, we might be shocking them if we tell them how our parents act.

Trees

[JR]

JR,

That is a really important point. People with empathy, have a really hard time believing that someone behaves like the Narc parent does. They discount it "no, that can't be true". They wear rose colored glasses. Wait until a narc comes into their life and almost destroys it - and then they will be forced to see what destruction this personality causes.

The narcs in my life work to hide their full blown abusive stuff so that most people they know, do not know how they behave behind closed doors (or when they are driving and no one knows how reckless they are).

If there are people in your life who deny that your parents behave like this, you have to decide if you think you can get through to them or if you want to let them stay naive. It is naive to not realize there are narcissists who wrek havoc on the lives of people around them. You and I and others here were forced out of that naive stuff because we had these parents. We got screwed, in the lottery of who your parents are. No one chooses their parents. People with non-narcissistic parents tend to believe we all had their parents! You try to tell them otherwise, and they go into all that stuff you said - telling you you're wrong, you want to be Dr. Phil etc...

Everyone on this forum with narc parents, has had to deal with the naive denial that is out there.

The truth is that if some of the people in your life, believe you, and start to listen and educate themselves on what you have had to live with, your entire life, they would need to update their own naive beliefs about how they think the world works. And so most people are not going to do that are they?

You and I could point out to these people that the only thing they 'did' differently is that they were born to more healthy parents than you and I were. But I don't think we can have that conversation with most people. Maybe if you are close with certain people they will be willing to see your side, without accusing you of acting like Dr. phil. I think it scares them if they are forced to think about what we live with. Even some therapists get scared when we talk about what we actually lived with. If they had caring parents, we might be shocking them if we tell them how our parents act.

Trees

trees
exactly,exactly exactly to everything you said here! growing up in a narcissist family as the scapegoat just because you are an empath and are refusing to be force fed the Kool-aid they are administering sets you up for abuse, but even if you play along with their BS you'll still get it at the time and place of their choosing doesnt matter, I'd rather fight the good and dish it back to them. then at least I'll retain a wee bit of my self respect, to me using the Grey Rock method where you are just a human punching bag to them for more abuse and emboldens them even more, if you ask me. Although the grey rock isnt a the true silver bullet to stop abuse its just to no get yourself worked up and punch them in the face(reactive abuse) then they call the police on you for assaulting them they are being victimized by you even you may have sacrificed so much to keep the family relationship together. The Narcs i know have blown up so many relationships already, but it still hasnt effected how they should adjust their behavior towards people at all, totally tone deaf.  I never knew at that time what exactly what i was dealing with, now that im much more educated i can read their every BS trick in their arsenal,

[Liketheducks]

JR....reading through the thread and I thought of something more.   The truth will out.   You may feel no one will believe you when if you talk about your parents, but it will always come out.   

And frankly, when I've had to engage law enforcement....my experience has been that they've been able to see the Narc for their true colors.   They don't want to deal with them either.

[JR]

JR....reading through the thread and I thought of something more.   The truth will out.   You may feel no one will believe you when if you talk about your parents, but it will always come out.   

And frankly, when I've had to engage law enforcement....my experience has been that they've been able to see the Narc for their true colors.   They don't want to deal with them either.

I think  some of the relations these people have blown up the victims just thought that the Narcs were just Toxic jerks and cut the ties with them, they never went as far as investigating why they are toxic jerks, as people or family that deal with it 24/7 have to eventually take the deep dive to find out why after getting married or having grown up in a Narc family its more difficult to go no contact when the narc is a husband,wife,sibling, close relative and calling the Police on them would seem to make a bad situation worse(they would wait it out a few days.months.years.decades then ramp it back up) although i have visited the police station on my narc brother 2 years ago Easter about him after he put paddle locks on my fence gate and outside tool shed for a perceived slight to him by me, told the cops that i thought he was a narcissist they looked at me like what the heck is that with no results other than i have it record with the law that i reported this issue. the cops told me just take your lawn mower and weed whacker out of the shed just in case he comes back   i had to get a locksmith unpick one lock luckily i had a key for the other lock on my gate.

[Liketheducks]

I'm fairly certain that most people in law enforcement deal with the bulk of human dysfunction on the daily.   I agree....remove your things and emotions from the narc's place.   Take care of your side of the street.  Having to DO that, realizing that your FOO isn't safe will always be a trigger for me.   But, protecting that child within you make them stronger.