Victim dynamic

[Sheppane]

I havent been here in a while but thought I could do with some support today.

I have struggling dealing with a relationship with one of my siblings. I think what I gave experienced is a discard - of sorts. Narcissistic family dynamics , she is golden child, I am scapegoat , other sibling floats between. I used to be GC but roles switched when I began to see the dynamics and stopped playing a part of it. The unspoken rule is that everything has to orbit around GC and whoever doesn't do this becomes the SG.
No one in my family every calls me.
 I do call to keep the contact going but effectively if I stopped I don't know what would happen. When I have left it go for longer periods I get messages from Mom that say things like " it would be lovely to hear from you ". Even though she could just call. So you get the picture. Lots of blaming , guilt tripping etc.
Mom and GC have a very codependent enmeshed relationship and Mom feels I never do " enough ".
The real problem is none of this is overtly communicated. It all comes out in rage attacks, eventually, but for the most part it is little remarks here and there , subtle comments. 
What I am struggling with  is this pattern where so I call GC sib just to have a conversation. She doesn't answer, never calls back but instead sends 6 or 7 text messages. Basically updates of her news, usually a large amount of what's going on in her life , never any enquiry as to mine. Maybe that sounds childish but it feels infuriating as it is so full of self absorption.
This week was the same except there is a vibe at the moment of guilt tripping that I am not doing enough for her. Mom also tells me anytime I ring how busy GC is and how exhausted they all are helping her. And then it hangs there. No one ever asks directly. Yesterday she sent another message about how difficult things are and how much she has to do. Again didn't ask directly for help but I could feel the vibe so I said I was sorry I can't help out at the moment but I am very busy with a lot on. This is true.  Then she goes on to say how she would love a vacation but can't afford ( in the context of me going on vacation). This texting dynamic is really becoming difficult. What seems to be happening is I call for connection / a conversation, she doesn't take the call but instead then dumps these messages my direction.  I'm wondering will I just not engage by text and if she wants to speak she can call ? The problem is I try to do it that way but she never calls back. And if she texts and I don't respond then that's just an excuse for her to say I'm not engaging. I feel that this way she controls everything and rather than  connection, all I am getting is dumped on.  Does this make sense ?
What do you think ?

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Sheppane,

It feels awful when we have a sibling who doesn't do what we wish they would do, in regards to connecting with us and having conversations with us.

Given her behavior, do you think she's going to change?

Trees

[bloomie]

Sheppane - welcome back! Glad you reached out as you process the communication dynamics in your FOO. You ask what we think...

I think you are over performing in these relationships. I think that your FOO create an atmosphere that is filled with uncertainty, favoritism, criticism and more you could identify, I am sure. It sounds like you live with the unspoken, ever present threat for potential discard if you don't keep performing. 

You describe what sounds like living in a constant state of gaslighting.

Expecting a reasonable level of reciprocity in familial relationships is healthy. Expecting family members to show a reasonable level of interest in you and what is going on in your life, your health, your pursuits, is healthy and good self care.

Seeing where others may be enmeshed and recognizing guilt tripping messages and not allowing ourselves to be  manipulated or guilted to go further than we can, or want to, is an important part of our respecting and holding our own resources, time, emotional investment as valuable and ours to steward well.

A few years ago I decided to be as good of a friend, sister, human to myself as I was to others. I recognized that I had been over performing in just about every relationship I had and I had been accepting a very similar type of 'relationship' as you describe from siblings and someone who declared herself my BFF.

I decided that I would 'listen' to what another person was actually telling me they wanted in relationship to and with me. The verbal and the non verbal. I adjusted my level of effort to theirs. I kept any contact that did happen to a very superficial level, short and sweet.

When I stopped being the caretaker and activator in these primary relationships I learned a whole lot.

And I have restructured my side of the equation over time to adjust to the reality of the level of interest there actually is in having a warm, safe, loving connection with me where I am considered as well.

It is not easy to face some of the hard things I learned, but they were there all along and my heart knew it.

[Sheppane]

Thanks you Trees - yes it does feel awful and your point hit home - no I don't think this will change.
Maybe I keep hoping it will.
Or maybe that has more to do with the dynamic itself that I have internalised the belief that " if only " I did more , then the relationship would improve, i.e. it is down to my efforts to make this work , and there must be some other way.
Its a strange mix as we do have moments where I feel connection and it makes me hopeful for the future but that's the minority of the time I guess. If I really mattered to her I am sure she would call.
And also some of this is her personality too I think. She can be extremely opinionated and superior to me and it never really feels on solid ground. So yes it is worth reflecting on whether this will change , as most of the change would need to come from her. I can only do my part. That was my attempt to keep connection by calling every so often, even though she doesn't. But I can see now that even that doesn't " work"..thank you Trees

[Sheppane]

Bloomie you have articulated that in a way I couldn't have. The unspoken ever present threat as you put it is huge  - and what makes it so difficult. If it were spoken I could respond. But it is all subtle , hints, comments , expressions , silent treatments etc. No one says what they think. I sometimes wish there could be a full on show down to get it out in the open.

Over performing is a great way to put it. I think I did that before what you said about reducing my le El of communication to match theirs - but I found the loneliness hard to deal with. The loneliness and also the thoughts that maybe I wasn't trying hard enough. I was probably afraid of being discarded so I made a decision at some point that any effort would have to done from me, otherwise the relationship would disappear .

Now I'm seeing this strategy has just brought me back to where I started as she has reduced her side to text message only. Maybe I have a choice now to decide how I want that to be. The text message " conversations " can be difficult as they have no end and to my mind would be fine as a supplement to actual real conversation , but if that's all that's left maybe I need to think about that.

I don't know what the hardest part is. I guess I don't want to give up on a relationship. But it is very hard work when it is all on one side. You are so right what you said about restructuring your side of the equation. Maybe I need to think more about what I will and won't do.

It's sad , as none of my FOO reach out to me to talk. They show up at large family gatherings and occasions where everything is " staged " and "happy". In between if I never contacted them I would never hear. When I have brought it up before that I would love for them to call me they typically respond with " but you are so busy I never know when suits you ". I am busy , yes, but most people work around that ? So I never really no how to respond to that as it causes me confusion in thinking that they do care , and do want to stay in touch but just don't have the maturity to manage it , so it is left to me.

There is a lot to think about there.

[LemonLime]

Sheppane, I am so sorry you are dealing with this.  It hurts.  I've followed your story over time and can relate to much of what you've said.

Just sending my support.  I do find Jerry Wise on YouTube very good with these types of family dynamics.  He's about self-differentiation, which I needed more than anything when dealing with my Nsib.
And it's free!

Hugs to you

[Sheppane]

Thank you Lemon Lime ! I haven't been on the site in a long time so it is lovely to feel the support again. 
Yes I second Jerry Wise I have found him brilliant.
I think I have " fallen back in " to the dynamic a little, dropped my guard perhaps. Things had improved from how they were a number of years back , and I think I was beginning to feel I " belonged " again. The dynamic in my FOO works like that, in the sense that the absence of the huge toxicity which was previously more overt made me feel we were maybe moving into a different phase, no one is perfect etc etc.
The hallmark of it all though seems to be confusion and lack of consistency. As in, in other relationships I don't need to keep checking with myself whether I feel like I belong , whether I'm " in" or " out".
The other confusing thing is that I can see , more compassionately maybe, that perhaps my FOO don't have the emotional maturity to " do " relationships in a healthy adult way. My sadness over the lack of contact is mainly around " why does no one bother to contact me ?". Yet when I meet I feel loved and perhaps some sadness from them that they don't see me enough. I sometimes wonder is it their own low self esteem that gets in the way of contacting me. With Mom for instance , the sense that she feels I have my own life and she doesn't want to " bother" me. Though I have said to her before I would love if she called, and still she doesn't. So I guess that's a choice she's making.
It's all very confusing.
Thanks for your support. 

I've also forgotten how to reply to a post !!!!

[walking on broken glass]

Hi Sheppane!
I am so sorry you are dealing with all this. I understand that you want to have some kind of relationship with your mum and sis but, because they are both emotionally immature, it is impossible to do it on equal terms. I fully agree with what bloomie said about over performing. Perhaps you can experiment a bit to find out what kind of contact works best for you. Don't blame yourself for having hopes and feelings: you are human and also these relationships never remain static. They can be constantly negotiated. As long as you remember that you have power in your hands and you are not helpless and at their mercy, you can adjust your level of contact as much as you like.

You say that your sis won't take calls and she just messages about her own life. How about if you text her something like 'Sorry, I can't really get into a proper conversation in writing, call me when you have some free time?' and then see how she reacts? But also, if you do speak on the phone, won't the conversation be one-sided still? Why would it be different over the phone?

With your mum I guess is a bit different because I find that older people are set in their ways and it is difficult to train them to change their habits. My mum never calls me either, but expects me to call. I have told her many times she can call me too but she says she doesn't want to disturb me 🙄 I just gave up.

Just examine how it feels when you take a step back from the relationship. Maybe it will be a relief not to have to just be on the receiving end of your sister's newsletter? Maybe you will see that you don't miss the relationship so much. But if you keep 'supplying' her, you will be stuck in the same cycle.

Sending lots of hugs 

[Sheppane]

Thank you walking 
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the reminder not to blame myself for having hopes and feelings - I think I do a bit of I " should" have this figured out by now. Who knows, really ?
That's a great idea it never actually occured to me that I could message to say I couldn't engage in a text flurry - probably for reasons of fear - I think if I did that I would get no answer , no call, and then I'm left wondering are we now headed into the silent treatment again. That's what I find makes texting so ambiguous , it can be too hard to read.

And yes, it still is one sided over the phone ! It's usually about 30 mins of me listening at which point I need to go.i suppose the only difference is I can respond to things that are said / speak up or even challenge in a way that seems to get confrontational or testy via texts. In texts I might say something very normal and get a loaded response of " what do you mean by that " or " I don't understand what you mean"( get that one a lot). So I guess I feel there is less vagueness by phone.

Thanks for sharing that about your mum too. I've always struggled with it in the sense that I feel on the one hand she is perfectly capable of calling my sister / her friends and just not me. So  I leave gaps, hoping she'll call, then she doesn't so I ended up calling her. And she'll also send texts if she hasn't heard from me saying " call me sometime it would be lovely to hear from you ". Which all feels w but manipulative and designed to make me feel guilty, when I'm the only one doing any of the calling !

On the other hand, sometimes I feel maybe I'm better off accepting that's the way she is. The only decision then is whether I'm happy to be the only person making any effort in the relationship. I think that's what's hard and confusing about it.

So I carry on, calling her every week or so, hoping sometime she might call me but that hasn't happened in about a year or more .

I never thought about that dynamic about the newsletter (lol) being about me giving "supply". It's a good way to think about it. I find that readjusting my level of contact over the years has never really brought me anywhere stable. But I'm really getting tired of the one sided nature of it.
Thanks for hearing me 

[walking on broken glass]

My mum is exactly the same! My dad was even worse, when he was alive. He would not call but then if I didn't get in touch for a while he would send me sad emojis and cute kittens holding signs 'where are you?' Then I would call and he would say something like 'so you are alive!' It makes me laugh now but it was very infuriating. And you are right, it is manipulative. It is about them feeling they have the power over us, because we called them.
What my own experience taught me is that there is no level and kind of contact that will ever be normal and satisfactory. It sounds miserable but once you accept that, it takes the pressure off a little bit. Like, it's not your fault that things are like that because you can't control what other people are like. And you do your best. It's ok to want to talk to your sis even if the conversation is one-sided. It's also ok if you decide to get some distance. As long as you don't beat yourself up about it

[Sheppane]

That sounds very similar - I get the cute animal emojis too  !
You are right , accepting this will never be * normal * is so needed. I think where I always struggle is finding a place to stand in the ever shifting goalposts. Maybe that's part of it - there is no one firm place to stand as the consistency is never really there. Sometimes it's fine, sometimes not , sometimes awful. And you never really quite know ! Thanks for reminding me that it's ok to have the one sided conversations too. I guess sometimes I can tolerate them , though they feel like crumbs at times. It's the hurtful digs I'm not so good at managing in the moment , so sometimes the hangover after just isn't worth it. But I don't think NC is an option for me. LC seems to be where I'm at. But I guess that could always go either way. Thanks !

[Rebel13]

Hi Sheppane! This all sounds so familiar to me. Communication dynamics are so confusing in my family too. I spent a LONG time feeling responsible for there not being more contact. It was my fault because I moved away, I didn't call enough, etc. etc. When I finally got the chance to take a step back and look at the situation more objectively, I saw that the actual dynamics weren't how I was imagining them, i.e., there wasn't a big happy loving family over there somewhere, having happy times without me. All of the relationships are fractured and fraught. Therefore, none of my family members were CAPABLE of creating "a firm place to stand" with me, because they didn't have it for themselves or with each other. I had to create that consistency for myself, so I did. I thought about what I wanted, what mattered to me, what felt good (and not), what I wanted and was able to offer, without regard to the "shoulds" or other expectations that I had put on myself or accepted from others. I'm not trying to say that's easy, but life is so much better on the other side. So I wish you lots of luck in figuring out what that looks like to you!

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi again Sheppane,

I didn't want to post a "tear off the bandaid quickly" type of post, but I also wanted to offer the support that ultimately, helps us see the situation with these siblings more clearly.

I know this feeling so well. Our desire for these people to grow up is so visceral for us. Like how can they be THIS age and still act like this? And we want a sibling who knows how to treat us. Is that so much to ask? Apparently it is....

I love Jerry Wise videos. They are part of my "keeping myself sane" first aid kit as an adult survivor of chaotic abuse. When I feel confused, Jerry Wise steps in with a video to remind me I'm not the disordered one!!

There are a lot of people (unfortunately) who are what Patrick Teahan calls "half safe". I like that term because that is how it feels. This person can be in a good mood and then whoa, they can be not in a good mood and we get their chaotic stuff. The systems feelings, as Jerry Wise calls them.

When I read your OP it sounded to me like sometimes, your sister does act like you expect, like a sister 'should' but other times, she's in her chaotic state, and wants you to do what she wants you to do to.

My guessing here - but her work, would be that she would need to sort out what she does and how she acts -and you can't do that work for her right? That's the heart breaking part. She has to look at how she's acting, because otherwise how can she ever really change?

The first time I watched this video, it helped me so much. Even with everything I had already learned about the toxic family system, he explains enmeshment and why one person can't fix this system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LVQMgPhP3A

IMHO LC is the hardest dynamic to manage because the immature person is always pushing back. So tiring! However I have learned that a lot of people here do find their way with LC and I have no doubt that it will get easier for you, as you look at what your sister can and cannot do in the context of her relationship with you.

What Bloomie described above here is something I'm working on too. To see the other person (especially a relative) clearly is proving really hard for me. It isn't easy to do this but over time I hope that it gets easier. Who wouldn't want a healthy, mindful, loving sibling who communicates well? I mean, we all wish we had that and the heart hurts when we realize oh, this person is not who I thought they were. 

Trees

[walking on broken glass]

Thanks for that video, trees! I didn't know about any of those people. I will check them out. Do you perhaps have any other suggestions for sibling dynamics?

I concur about the LC. It did work for me for a number of years but I put up with it begrudgingly and it was a lot of work. Not sure whether I an VLC or NC just now. It's rather passive NC in the sense that I don't initiate and sis hasn't got in touch either but if she did I might consider replying, depending the circumstances.

One thing I will say though, in case it helps you, Sheppane, is that not being in touch with sis and not having to worry about talking to her has been amazing. It was a constant load that I wasn't aware I was carrying all the time.

[Sheppane]

Hi Rebel. It really hit home when you said " I saw that the actual dynamics weren't how I was imagining them, i.e., there wasn't a big happy loving family over there somewhere, having happy times without me". I hadn't thought of it like that by because that's exactly how it seems. It's the lack of consistency and constantly having to " try" so hard which I find exhausting. Thank you for that. It really is up to me to figure out what the right level of engagement is .at the moment it is definitely very different than it used to be . I know I can only engage as much as I want / on my terms and can't do anything about their side. That's probably the hard part - doing that as best I can but with no expectations for anything in return. Part of me always hopes that my engagement will lead them to engage in a better way with me , or at least in a way I would like but it never really happens like that. So the only way to approach it is to engage on my terms but I have to know that will not change anything on their side. Sometimes it does , and I get hopeful again but it usually goes back to the more usual inconsistencies and subtle communications. So why bother ? Maybe it's fear of future regret. I think I would like to look back and say I did the best I could and the rest was up to them. I don't know I will need to think more on that.

Trees thank you for that video it was very interesting. I love the term " half safe" that describes it perfectly. Never being able to entirely rely or know what you'll get or in my case what half comment / half remark , half dig will come my way. As well as being half safe I think my FOO can also be half toxic. As in , it is subtle , quite covert , mangled communication..lots of golden child /enabler dynamic with my mom and sis , then I get persecuted for not doing " enough " but the persecution is rarely direct. It is hinted at , or just presented to me how GC sib is the victim , or else how my mom and dad are the victims and that whole triangle keeps moving around. I know the only thing is not to be on the triangle though because otherwise I also make myself a victim of everyone else ! But half safe is a brilliant description . That really helps. No direct communication in my FOO ( except for in rage attacks - though since I lowered my contact level the opportunity for these does not present so much anymore )- just half communication..

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Sheppane,

One of the things I had to learn about these half safe people and family systems, is that the 'golden rule' doesn't apply. We can (and do) treat people well, and they run right over us in return. Yes, we can do unto others - but with an understanding of how these others are going to respond.

A big hurdle for us is that if we have these half safe people as family members, then none of the visiting or holiday events can be relaxing...because the event is full of half safe people. Who go back and forth with being kind, and then being chaotic and then bouncing back and forth in that. And that is all on them. That is how they are living with their symptoms. We have to visit / call them, with the knowledge that they are only half safe. It means we'll never get much out of the relationship. That is what I have realized. 

I don't share this view with most people because most people will then say "oh you are not supposed to GET something out of your relationships". But those people want to be treated well. So that is what I'm talking about. Being treated well is what they expect. From us. So they are "getting" treated well. I try to dismantle that nonsense about us not having our own needs, and that we're supposed to somehow just give and give to people without getting to feel loved, supported, understood, and have people in our corner as we go through life. You are in essence, asking to be treated the way that you've treated others. But when those others are disordered, anxious, depressed, traumatized and / or emotionally immature, they may only give you their 'half safe' self. 

You have done your best with people who are half safe. There isn't a lot of room to relax around these half-safe people. Especially because they don't admit to being half-safe.

Half safe people create a lot of drama.

Drama can create (short term) trauma bonding - and a lot of people think that stuff is what 'family' is supposed to be. I've seen. Over and over. Now that some of those people are older, they can't even stay bonded, they are so resentful after years of immature behavior with one another. Relatives who used to stir the pot and cause drama, now stay home, and no one wants to bother with them anymore at this point. And they never woke up and learned anything. Some of them act like they are in one of those awful reality shows where everyone is dramatic instead of authentic. No one wants to deal with them anymore. Some of my family systems (that I am NC with) have come apart at the seams in recent years, no one is talking to one another because that drama wore everyone down. None of them woke up.

Trees

[JR]

Hi Sheppane,

One of the things I had to learn about these half safe people and family systems, is that the 'golden rule' doesn't apply. We can (and do) treat people well, and they run right over us in return. Yes, we can do unto others - but with an understanding of how these others are going to respond.

A big hurdle for us is that if we have these half safe people as family members, then none of the visiting or holiday events can be relaxing...because the event is full of half safe people. Who go back and forth with being kind, and then being chaotic and then bouncing back and forth in that. And that is all on them. That is how they are living with their symptoms. We have to visit / call them, with the knowledge that they are only half safe. It means we'll never get much out of the relationship. That is what I have realized. 

I don't share this view with most people because most people will then say "oh you are not supposed to GET something out of your relationships". But those people want to be treated well. So that is what I'm talking about. Being treated well is what they expect. From us. So they are "getting" treated well. I try to dismantle that nonsense about us not having our own needs, and that we're supposed to somehow just give and give to people without getting to feel loved, supported, understood, and have people in our corner as we go through life. You are in essence, asking to be treated the way that you've treated others. But when those others are disordered, anxious, depressed, traumatized and / or emotionally immature, they may only give you their 'half safe' self. 

You have done your best with people who are half safe. There isn't a lot of room to relax around these half-safe people. Especially because they don't admit to being half-safe.

Half safe people create a lot of drama.

Drama can create (short term) trauma bonding - and a lot of people think that stuff is what 'family' is supposed to be. I've seen. Over and over. Now that some of those people are older, they can't even stay bonded, they are so resentful after years of immature behavior with one another. Relatives who used to stir the pot and cause drama, now stay home, and no one wants to bother with them anymore at this point. And they never woke up and learned anything. Some of them act like they are in one of those awful reality shows where everyone is dramatic instead of authentic. No one wants to deal with them anymore. Some of my family systems (that I am NC with) have come apart at the seams in recent years, no one is talking to one another because that drama wore everyone down. None of them woke up.

Trees