In-laws access to kids

[Peace0711]

Hi - I'm so glad to have found this community. First time poster here.

I'm married to a golden child son who is enmeshed with his parents. He makes excuses for their poor behavior and is weirdly obedient to them. He puts up with their guilt tripping and manipulation and obeys to keep the peace. They definitely have some PDs (although I'm unsure if it's narcissism or just emotional immaturity).

My husband and I now have a LO. I have set a boundary around seeing them around the upcoming holidays. But he wants to visit with LO with just them two early (since they are coming in town early). I feel like I'm controlling him, but it absolutely terrifies me not being there to help protect LO since I'm not confident that husband will step in when poor behavior or inappropriate comments are made in front of or to LO since he can't even stick up for himself.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation? Have you been able to convince DH that to have access to LO you also have to be there (not just DH)?

[bloomie]

Peace0711 - welcome to Out of the FOG. You have found a community of fellow travelers who will support and encourage you. This is a place to exhale and know that many of us here have walked very similar paths to what you are describing with in laws, our DH's and our LO's.

I want to every so gently say to you what I wish someone had said to me early on when faced with a H who was enmeshed and accommodating to his own difficult entitled parents with PD traits.

You are the emotional center of your family. The heart beat of your home and family life. The care and protection of your LO has been entrusted to you and your H. Your LO is relying on you to be empowered in your protection of them.

The family you and your DH are building comes first! Your own comfort and concerns with any situation YOUR child will be exposed to is more important than pleasing anyone else.

Exercising your responsibility to protect and care for your LO and to the best of your ability not allow them to be exposed to poor behaviors and inappropriate comments by anyone without your presence is not controlling. It is your mandate as a parent. A sacred trust.

What it seems like is that you and your DH might want to come to some agreements on priorities for your family and whose comfort and wellbeing comes first. That would be yours and your child's. Your family's comfort.

Something important to help you may be to revisit the commitment and promises you made to each other at the start of your marriage. The intentions and desires for your family you may have already spoken and established.

You are a separate, united, family of your own. You are building legacies together. United doesn't mean we always agree or see everything exactly the same, it means we are united in purpose and protection over our marriage and our children's well being and when one of us is truly uncomfortable with something, we honor that and defer to our united purpose.

You and your H don't have to agree on the potential for harm from your in laws or see this exactly the same. Having been raised up by these people your H he has been marinating in the family dynamics all of his life and it may take some time to clear his vision.

If you have people in your life - a faith community, a trusted wise older couple, a mentoring type of relationship you both could turn to and work through what separating and differentiation from your H's family of origin looks like, that could be a huge help to both of you. This is a lot to try and sort through on your own. At least it has been for me. I needed a support system with all of this.

The family systems approach that Jerry Wise uses in his free youtube vids has been really helpful to me. And my time here, asking questions, getting insights from others who have traveled this road have helped me more than I can say.

Keep coming back and working through things. We are here to cheer you on! Let us know how you are doing as you are able.

 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi Peace, and welcome! Yes, I have been here too. I'm also married to a mother-enmeshed man. He has grown enormously in these last several years, but yes, it absolutely was a huge strain on our marriage. You don't mention your own family background, but I was the scapegoat in my FOO. My in-laws capitalized on my unassuming nature and desire to please. "Being controlling" was a big fear for me too when navigating this situation, when I was in fact raised to be a doormat. But my love and mama bear instincts did in fact overcome all the narcissistic abuse tactics meant to keep me compliant.

Bloomie is spot-on when she says that your family, yours and your husband's and now your LO, take precedence. Every time, 100%. In healthy families, the grandparents are not regularly creating competition and conflict. And when there are conflicts, they know to defer to the parents of the children. You are the queen. Embrace that. This might sound silly but I mentally put on my crown when having to engage my uBPD Queen-type MIL. I knew there would be conflict, but I wasn't going to be usurped.

With my DH, a principle that was really helpful was that both parents had veto power. A frequent source of conflict was outrageous gifts from the grandparents. If it was a no from either of us, it was a no. We didn't keep the thing. If one of us (me) didn't approve of an ice cream trip right before dinner, it didn't happen. Whatever. But we both presented that united front as WE have decided thus and such.

Spoiler alert: This went very badly. The boundaries were repeatedly busted in increasingly absurd and dramatic ways such that I gave up and went NC, and my kids too. Because I had come to be a big believer in the mantra, "Too toxic for me, too toxic for my kids." As you rightly say, LO can't even stick up for himself. DH wasn't happy with this. At all. But staying the course was absolutely worth it. I wouldn't want to do it again, but if I had to, no hesitation. Protecting them from the crazy was my biggest motivation. Ultimately even if I was there to run interference and even if I could have done it in this imaginary perfect way that left me unaffected, there would have been constant conflict, inappropriate attempts at boundary-busting, and all sorts of abusive behaviors that are just not healthy for children to witness.

Your trust level with your in-laws must be very, very low for you to have an "absolutely not" boundary for DH to manage any visit without you. But it's also really problematic that your DH wants to have visits without you, especially given your concerns. Sounds like there is more to that story if you are willing to share. But another pithy statement I learned on this forum seems apt here: We don't allow our family to be divided into loved and unloved parts. A FAMILY visit at holiday time is basic decency level in my humble opinion.

[Rebel13]

Hi Peace0711,

You don't mention what your boundary with your in-laws is for the holidays. Do you mean that you are not planning to see them at all? If you have plans to see them already, with your husband and child, then mightn't that visit be enough, and your husband could go on his own if he wants to see his parents more than that?

[Call Me Cordelia]

Oh, yes, Rebel you are right the boundary is not necessarily explicit. Peace, I interpreted the boundary to be that your child doesn't see the in-laws without you present but your husband wants to take him without you anyway. I also read it that the way it would shake out means you don't see them for the holidays. So if I was off-base in my reply because of that I'm sorry.

[Peace0711]

Bloomie - Thank you so much for the warm welcome and for validating my feelings. It means so much to me. You're so right, I shouldn't feel bad about doing everything that I can to protect LO. I will do anything to protect them.

My husband and I do go to therapy and we have made great progress, but I feel we still haven't addressed the root cause of our issues which is the need for my husband to separate from his parents. It seems like he skates by balancing our family and his but it often comes with constant fighting to get there which is exhausting. He's a great partner and father otherwise. His family is really the only reason we fight.

Call Me Cordelia - Thanks as well for such a thoughtful response. You give very insightful advice. Thank you for that.

More about me and my family. I grew up in a very loving family and with very emotional mature parents. My Mom is very aware and goes out of her way to make sure to communicate and consider other peoples needs first. For example, my MIL will be like what time are you coming on xmas eve - don't leave too late, don't stop for lunch. Whereas my mom would be like what day works for you guys to visit. Drive safe, take your time. Do what works best for you guys. I grew up in a family that is very considerate of other peoples needs, so seeing people who are so self centered and controlling is very jarring to me.

I'm an introvert and am very go with the flow which is probably why my in-laws have taken advantage of our family for a while (although for a while i deferred to my DH). That being said i'm not afraid to be the bad guy or set boundaries. i've begun to realize it works best to speak up in the moment and to not rely on my husband to always stick up for us. So i've started to be more vocal and its working.

My husband and I have been together for close to 9 years (known each other for 13 years). The first 6 years his parents basically ignored me. I remember the first time meeting them leaving disappointed but not completely knowing why in that moment. In those first 6 years they we're never warm or welcoming and made me feel like an outsider. Over the years, they did make several unkind comments and a lot of passive aggressive ones but what makes it very difficult is that it's mostly covert (death by a thousand paper cuts) so explaining it to my husband feels exhausting.

Recently I have found that my MIL has started to make more of an effort but it feels very fake to me and I anticipate it's driven by the fact that there is now a grandchild in the picture and she wants access. My FIL is emotionally immature. He talks non stop--you can't get a word in and when you do he basically ignores what you said and returns to talking about himself. He requires constant admiration and stroking of the ego by DH (which he is conditioned to do).

My MIL is more emotionally there and is capable of having a meaningful conversation but she chooses not to with me. She is also very self centered. She requires my DH to make a big deal about her birthday and buy her gifts for every occasion otherwise there will be consequences. Both parents guilt trip and emotionally manipulates my DH and he goes along with it. It seems exhausting but he's been conditioned to take care of them emotionally needs since he was little.

Rebel13 - We invited the inlaws for thanksgiving from Thursday through Saturday. They told us they booked their hotel from Wednesday through Saturday. I said to husband it's completely reasonable they don't want to drive on thanksgiving but we can say we won't be available to entertain them on Wednesday. I'll be too tired getting ready to host for Thanksgiving (we are hosting a lot of people that day including my family and his) and bc his family is very draining and unhelpful to me and we'll be spending plenty of time with them.

My DH is a people pleaser and wanted to invite them to our house on Wednesday. He got really (alarmingly) defensive and pushed me on this and said it's rude if we don't. I shut that down but suggested he can go meet up with them if he pleased. But now he wants to take LO and do dinner with them (I can stay home). What is really irking me here is that I see him going out of his way to try and please them. In this case his parents haven't pushed any of our boundaries, but I'm starting to realize it's DH that doesn't want to lose his Golden Boy status and it's not his parents.

Bringing LO without me gives me massive anxiety. But he is in disagreement with me here. I'm worried that by bringing LO it enforces poor boundaries in the future and it also gives them exactly what they want. Time with DH and LO without me. I also worry about DH not sticking up for LO.

Sorry this was a super long post, so if you're still reading--thank you. <3

[Rebel13]

Hi Peace,

With plans already in place for a three-day visit, I think it's perfectly reasonable for you and your child to stay at home on Wednesday. Of course you'll have to negotiate that with your husband, and I wish you luck! I don't know exactly what his situation is, but having been raised by dysfunctional, self-absorbed parents, I know how hard it is to feel stuck in the middle, placating to ward off bad parental behavior without making my partner uncomfortable or unhappy. It was quite a tightrope walk for me, which I minimized as much as I could by living thousands of miles away!

I have empathy for you both in this difficult situation, and I support you in setting the boundaries that feel right to you and taking good care of your child.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I hope I have time for more later, but my crown went on on your behalf here. It's also perfectly reasonable to say, "DH, we have a houseful of people here on Thanksgiving, we need all hands on deck the night before. I need you here."

[bloomie]

I hope I have time for more later, but my crown went on on your behalf here. It's also perfectly reasonable to say, "DH, we have a houseful of people here on Thanksgiving, we need all hands on deck the night before. I need you here."

My thoughts exactly.

I would also add... your family of choice - you, husband, LO are establishing patterns and communicating messages in all of this. An important lesson I learned later in the game than you are, I'm thinking.. is that consistent patterns and messages are kind and what love looks like. It seems you are very blessed to have great examples of that in your FOO.

Example... the day before hosting both sides of your extended family for a holiday truly is an all hands on deck situation and you need each other and even a bit of down time if you can build that in before the hosting for three days begins.

So, declining to add another day of entertaining and visiting before hand, for any of you, and making preparation and time together a priority is kind - to you and to others. If you plan on accommodating your in laws every time they roll into town then go along, but if you prefer to exercise your human right to structure your time and energy as is best for you, then a kindly worded 'that doesn't work for us' (delivered by their son) is in order. 

The messages you would be sending is you own your time and energy and you use it wisely as you all see fit. You are the parents and you plan for your child as you see fit and is best for all of you.

There is a huge difference between controlling behaviors and demanding your own way and stewarding your family relationships well. When we put on that beautiful crown Cordelia mentions, we stand up in the  middle of our own family life and we steward the time, energy, resources, experiences well, with our partners. We reinforce with demanding family members good and healthy interactions and reasonable limits. We don't reinforce divisive, inappropriate and entitled behaviors.

Start as you mean to go from this point on to the best of your ability, and as much as you can, do it in love and grace. You've got this! We are rooting you on!

[Peace0711]

Thank you all for the responses and the support. It really means so much to not feel like i'm alone or the crazy one in all of this.

DH and I did talk with our therapist and the session itself was unproductive. DH doesn't understand why I feel the way I do and thinks I'm in the wrong for wanting to set the boundary and that his desire of wanting to see his parents should matter too. I got very upset based on the fact that I feel so unseen based on everything that has happened and him still not understanding why I feel the way I feel and the reason for my boundaries. It's like he still doesn't get it after 9 years together. I just want him to support me and back me but he's so eager to please his parents.

All of that being said, he's open to doing some work to help mend our relationship. Are there any tools, books or resources that you would recommend for him or us? My initial though is the book "adult children of emotionally immature parents" so he can understand why i'm so drained when I spend time with his family and why i need boundaries for myself (he sees no flaws in his parents despite everything). But at the end of the day it's not his parents that are causing our issues, it's his lack of support for me.

Any suggestions are much appreciated! Thanks again.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Peace0711,

This is familiar to me. My IL's didn't care to get to know me and are emotionally immature people, and so I remember back to some similar dynamics.

Like you said, it doesn't seem like he understands where you are coming from. His parents ignored you for 6 years, and he doesn't see that as problematic behaviour. You described your experience with them as 'death by a thousand cuts". So it sounds like they have some emotional immaturity. It is immature to ignore a new member of their family. People with good communication skills, don't do that sort of stuff.

He's enmeshed with them, it seems pretty clear. He wants to please them, which is where a lot of people go (emotionally) when they have emotionally immature parents. They know, that if they Don't please the parents, bad feelings happen for them. That they don't want to deal with.

Emotionally immature in laws are so hard to deal with because they have surface sweet or surface personas in public. They can act mature and turn it on and off. The surface persona is just their surface act, for when they want to act mature. It doesn't reveal how they behave back at home, when they are tired and don't get their way. The surface act, it hides the real cost of trying to engage with them, and how it exhausting it all is for you - the emotionally developed person in the mix. 

A lot of people with immature parents, end up in FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) which is a lot of denial. Then they get married, and their wife / husband is like, trying to get them out of denial and they don't want to get out of denial. That has to happen on their own timetable (if it happens at all).

You're not bonded or enmeshed with his parents and never will be. 

If he can't understand what was off about their behaviour, back when they were ignoring you, and he rationalizes it away, that's FOG stuff. He doesn't want to talk to them about their own behaviours. Classic stuff, in a family with emotionally immature parents. Sweep it under the rug is what we call that in the forum here. Lets just all sweep it under the rug. The problem is, there's a child in the family now and sweeping bad behaviour under the rug won't work.

It is hard to have a spouse who is in the FOG about his own parents, and a child to raise. You have to do what you feel is right for your child. FOG is an intergenerational problem in a lot of our families. The parents have FOG, the grandparents have FOG, and so on. I did a lot and bore a lot of loss, to ensure that the next generation didn't grow up with all that same FOG I did.

I was VERY focused on watching how people treated my child. I really take to heart, the fact that you are already worried about what these people are going to say and do around your child when they are visiting. I think there is a real disconnect in a lot of families. Grandparents who want to continue with their bad behaviour, based on being emotionally immature their entire lives, and then those of us who refuse to put our kids through the cycle of the FOG based family system. The person who wants to put an end to the FOG and the "sweep it under the rug" cycle tends to feel the way you feel. Unseen and misunderstood. You are what they call the truth teller. The person in the family who refuses to sweep it all under the rug, go into denial and pretend no one is emotionally immature. I know how lonely that place is.

I know some people do figure out a way of doing visits with the grandparents, and it sounds like you and your husband want to figure that out.

Trees

[Peace0711]

Hi Tree - Thanks so much for reaching out with your insight. It sounds like you have a lot of experience in this area and wisdom. I'm sorry that you've gone through a similar situation.

Yes, I've begun to realize they are emotionally immature. It's taken me a while to put a name to it and to understand the discomfort I've felt around them. I remember the first time meeting them and leaving feeling so disappointed. Their behavior has been so problematic and jarring to me. And mostly very exhausting to be around. Whereas, my husband is used to it / thinks it's normal. Perhaps he's better at tuning them out than I am since he grew up with their behavior.

The anticipation of our visits with them is very emotional draining to me and provokes so much anxiety. The recent visits aren't even as bad as my first visits with them, but I think I'm emotionally damaged by them and traumatized by what my husband previously allowed them to get away with.

I do suspect that he's enmeshed with them. He grew up the GC and is definitely used to guilt trips and manipulation (although he wouldn't point it out as such). It seems like he's fine with it. Again he's used to them arguing with him until they get their way. It makes me so sad for him that he can't see this behavior as unloving and problematic and that he allows it. He says he doesn't feel guilt but deep down he must be so scared of their disapproval. Lately I've witnessed him trying to go out of his way to please them (unprompted by his parents) and it feels so icky to me.

You're right in that my husband does a lot of rationalizing / making excuses for them. ...."They didn't mean anything by it, my parents aren't as adept in that area (wedding related) which is why they laughed at you when you shared your wishes, my mom is just curious, she said it was just a joke, they haven't tried to get to know you because you're an introvert". ......typing this and thinking about all these instances make me sad.

I've decided to pick up two books by Lindsay Gibson, including Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. I'm hoping my husband will read them. I've begun reading them myself and it's been therapeutic to me.

I suppose the only thing I can do is worry about myself and my LO's boundaries and peace. And its up to my husband to worry about himself. Although I wish so badly for him to come face to face with their behavior and to be able to recognize it for what it is. As I've mentioned before, a lot of their behavior (at least lately) is covert, passive aggressive and emotionally draining. It would be so much easier if they were more overt or had a big outburst. While that would be worse behavior it would be easier for my husband to see.

I'm so worried about protecting LO. I am very focused on watching how they treat LO. Do you have any tips in this area? Up until now I've always been able to be present with LO with the in-laws, but I'm worried that there will be situations in the future that DH might want to spend time with the in-laws when I might not be available. That worries me. I trust my husband, but he is disillusioned by their behavior. I have so much anxiety around it, my gut is telling me I need to be there to protect LO. Not that husband wouldn't protect LO but that he doesn't know how to when it comes to his parents. It's hard to protect someone from something that you yourself cannot see........which makes me feel like I'm the crazy one. Tree, thanks for seeing me and for making me feel I'm not the crazy one and that I'm validated with everything I've been feeling.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Peace0711,

I have been through this, unfortunately. I've also been here with this forum for years and have heard from others with similar experiences with the ILs.

The thing about the people in the fog is that they are in denial. So then, when your parents act badly in front of your LO, it is going to be hard on you, if your husband rationalizes their behavior towards LO, the same way he rationalizes their behavior towards you.

My advice is to use the guidance that Lindsay Gibson gives people, in her books and interviews on youtube. She talks about keeping visits shorter, when relatives are emotionally immature. That is great advice.  I wish I had taken that advice when I met my ILs!

Others can say what they think about this but I have seen a pattern where the emotionally immature in laws like the supply from their little grandkids, when they are small and cute. Then when the grandkids get older, the emotionally immature grandparent can't get supply out of the kid so easily, and they are less interested.

Some people go to all the visits, just to be there for their LO.

Trees

[Peace0711]

Thanks Tree! <3

[Call Me Cordelia]

I can only speak from my own experience, and my in-laws were pretty extreme in their outrageous behavior toward my little ones. They were the ignoring types... in their opinion they shouldn't have had grandchildren at all so they mostly acted as if they didn't exist, but then when they thought they may have outed themselves tried to go over the top with the playing best grandparent/buying them off with gifts and gaining brownie points by undermining my parenting crapola. And more but that was the general dynamic: they were completely uninterested and then had spurts of engulfing no-boundaries behavior around holidays and times they felt they had to play the part. I think it would be even harder to navigate the more subtle forms of dysfunction, which may be your situation. I applaud you again for recognizing it and staying true to your own observations in the face of all the ways you are being undermined and gaslit.

So yeah, kids first, 100% of the time. We dealt with that first and the kids were removed from the field of battle. But that wasn't enough. What was so so helpful to me was to hear that I didn't have an in-law problem so much any more, but I still had a husband problem. Your description of your husband skating by and balancing both families rang true to my experience. If you have bandwidth, also Dr. Ken Adams for work on dealing with mother-enmeshed men.

Another thing that early on that was so key in staying grounded in my observations was documenting the heck out of every interaction. My MiL had a huge ragey blowup at me and I really wanted to go NC at that point, but my husband was so not on board with that. He was willing to write it off as a one-off and move on. But no, I argued, it wasn't about the blowup, it was about the constant patterns that made the blowup even possible. She came to visit us for a week. Wayyyy too long. She was in "best behavior." But I journaled everything, good, bad, and ugly. I brought the journal to therapy and shared with him what I saw. The patterns of backhanded compliments, of making me out to be the bad guy to the kids, of posturing for her imaginary audience, of expecting to receive accolades for every stinkin thing, on and on. The mask had fallen off and it never really went back on. Basically I was the prosecuting attorney. But it WORKED. He acknowledged everything, because most of those events were recent and he witnessed it himself. Not forever, he did slip back into FOG. But enough to get me and the kids NC and with my therapist as witness to the agreement. Of course NC may not be your goal, but it sounds as if you have a similar opportunity to observe behavior coming up over Thanksgiving, and you are already in therapy which is great. Staying grounded in objective fact is your friend. We had planned on x at your suggestion. (See dated entry.) Your mother said, "Y," and then You suggested y+z and then that you never wanted x on the following day. It was exhausting to do but so worth it.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Welcome, Peace.  I just want to validate something.  Some enmeshed husbands (wives, too, in some instances) are absolutely not up to the job of protecting LO's from family PD's.  You'd think the paternal instinct would kick in.  I've seen it firsthand and been shocked by it.  I don't know your husband and I'm sure many do step up to the plate and protect their kids.  But some don't, even in extreme circumstances. They allow the PD's total control.  It may not be a majority of them, but I can attest it's not zero. 

[Peace0711]

Thanks Call Me Cordelia. That's a good idea to keep a journal and share with him my observations. It sounds like those observations have helped you setup NC with the in-laws including kids? I'm just worried about the subtle jabs and their lack of empathy / disinterest in me won't be "alarming" or toxic enough for him. I'm  having trouble processing. Even when I think back, I question myself is it that bad? (Maybe I have put up with them for too long!) Yes it wasn't kind or warm/welcoming, yes it was emotionally draining, yes my Mom or someone who loves and cares about me wouldn't treat me like that. But in my husband's mind its because I don't like them so I have a bias against them and since he spends plenty of time with my family I should do the same with his. He does acknowledge he disagrees with some of their behavior, but I get the sense that it all feels nit picky to him.

Its so much harder to rationalize when someone isn't overtly rude or mean to you in front of others (although there have been several instances in the past). I'm finding the subtlety and passive aggressive comments so much harder to get him to see and empathize with. They have tried to be "nice" since we had LO--but I can see through their fake facade. But sometimes I feel like I'm the crazy one.

My FIL is very emotionally immature in the sense he'll talk at you nonstop and you can't get a word in. While he doesn't care about trying to get to know me or does he try at having a conversation at least he has for the most part acknowledge my presence by talking my ear off. He doesn't text on the group chat nor does he seem interesting in engaging with LO besides trying to force a hug. Husband periodically calls him, I don't talk to his family on the phone so for the most part, the only time i interact with FIL is when I see him in person. He does act like a child and guilt trips my husband (via my MIL - she's the one that tells DH that FIL is upset). For example, he acted like a child when we were planning to meet them halfway for my FIL's birthday and MIL expressed to DH how upset FIL was that we weren't visting them for his birthday. They guilt tripped my DH to drive 4 hours each way for one night to visit for his birthday bc if his son doesn't want to visit him for his birthday he doesn't want to meet halfway to celebrate (I did not go for obvious reasons). My MIL also yells at my husband (for FIL) for not getting his obligatory birthday present there in time (they are so weird about birthdays it drives me crazy). While I find him exhausting and problematic I do find him less problematic than MIL because I think of him similar to a child. That being said, I would absolutely not trust LO alone with him (and without me present).

MIL I find so much more problematic. She seems to be the one that does all of the controlling and guilt tripping. I'm starting to wonder if FIL was the one who guilt trips for his birthday or if its really her trying to control DH. She is more emotionally there and can have a normal conversation so I feel like she should know better about her behavior. She can ask a billion questions to DH inquiring about the status of all of his friends but fails to ask me one about myself. So to me it seems much more intentional and deliberate and therefore hurtful. She's the one that ignored my presence the first several years. She is the one that makes all of the passive aggressive comments. Since FIL doesn't communicate really with us, it's MIL that is the one making all of the demands. While DH appeases his father, I think he's scared of his mother. One of the first years we were dating he was so scared because he was late calling his mother for her birthday. Mean while, he didn't forget, he already sent a present AND flowers. But sure enough MIL texted "I'm waiting to hear from my rotten son who doesn't care about his old mother." While she seems to be more emotionally there she 100% acts like a child too.

Sorry for rambling......it feels therapeutic to get this all out.

[Peace0711]

Lookin 2 B Free - Thanks for validating that I should absolutely push to be present always. You are so right and I will be 100% trusting my gut and sticking my ground no matter how irrational or crazy it might make me seem.

I bought Adult Children of Emotional Immature Parents and Ken Adam's Mother Enmeshed Men and my DH claims not much resonates to him. He does admit and checks off certain traits that he thinks his parents do have, but several of the examples in the books are much more extreme. I'm finding it really hard to get him to see the passive aggressive and more subtlety in the toxicity. If I read the checklists I check off several more than he does based on how they have treated me. The problem is, I don't know what life was like for him when he was younger as much as he does and he is the GC so they treat him much differently than how they treat and have treated me.

He does admit to their guilt tripping and some of their other problematic behavior. But he passes it off as what is he supposed to do about it other than help set boundaries when appropriate. He has done better about helping me set boundaries over the years, but we still have issues (Thanksgiving as an example).

Maybe I'm going about it wrong. I wanted him to read those books wishing he would have a lightbulb moment and for him to understand why I feel the way I do and for him to better understand why I need boundaries and why he should set boundaries and stick up for himself instead of allowing their problematic behavior. I guess I was also hoping it would help him realize and see what problematic behavior is. It says he has an open mind reading them but it all doesn't seem to resonate to him as they did to me when I read those books. I'm not sure if it's because he's the GC and I'm obviously not. Or if it's because he's in denial.

Anyhow, my job is to continue protecting LO at all costs and doing the best to keep myself mentally sane.

[Call Me Cordelia]

"Anyhow, my job is to continue protecting LO at all costs and doing the best to keep myself mentally sane."



My DH would see some of the stuff, but fall back to, "But my childhood had a lot of positives..." And yes there was some of oh well I was just determined to put the worst spin on everything for sure. But yes, at the end of the day we did agree to NC for me and the kids... until such time as MiL demonstrated significant self-work and understanding of why I cut her off and what she had to do differently to win back my trust. I thought she had a snowball's chance in hell of ever doing that, DH figured it would be a year tops. But those were the terms and here we are seven years down the road. We just left town for a weekend because she threatened to show up on our doorstep. 

I think why it worked so well for me was that 1) We agreed to the exercise in advance in therapy. I would be recording whatever happened, good and bad. There were also neutral things I wrote down. 2) My argument going in that it was the pattern, not just one or two things I chose to hold a grudge about. 3) My evidence proved #2 in spades, and was validated by my therapist. 4) DH agreed that his mother was really trying to be "good" after raging at me on her previous visit. So this was the best we could hope for here. He also acknowledged my substantial efforts to be a gracious and considerate DIL in spite of everything. 5) ...maybe. My memory is a bit fuzzy here but I remember periodically showing an entry soon after something happened to get DH to corroborate it. He knew I was trying to be objective. Maybe your DH is different but that seemed to win major trust with him. Me making extraordinary efforts to be fair to those who I wanted nothing to do with contrasted very favorably with MIL's tactics, to say the least.

I don't think the books are going to work until the person reading them is no longer invested in denial, until they want to see.

What is he supposed to do about it except set boundaries? Well, yes, set boundaries! And keep them. But to set them you have to see they are needed. It's kind of a prerequisite.

[treesgrowslowly]

Maybe I'm going about it wrong. I wanted him to read those books wishing he would have a lightbulb moment and for him to understand why I feel the way I do and for him to better understand why I need boundaries and why he should set boundaries and stick up for himself instead of allowing their problematic behavior. I guess I was also hoping it would help him realize and see what problematic behavior is. It says he has an open mind reading them but it all doesn't seem to resonate to him as they did to me when I read those books. I'm not sure if it's because he's the GC and I'm obviously not. Or if it's because he's in denial.

Anyhow, my job is to continue protecting LO at all costs and doing the best to keep myself mentally sane.

I can offer up what I have learned after thinking about this for so many years...and being here on the boards and learning from others:

Our significant other has to want to come out of their FOG. That is their own personal "journey" that we can encourage, we can support, but we cannot force. We can hand them them map, get them to the trail head but we can't walk through the path for them. They have to want to come out of their own FOG about their parents and their childhood. Until they are at that point in their own lives, they will put up some sort of boundary around it - and stay in denial about their parent's actual traits.

Some people never reckon with their own childhood.
And some of us married those people....

That said - there is hope for those of us in marriages where that person (still in the FOG and in denial about their parents being EI or PD) can work with us to make a plan that creates limits on how much their parents intrude into our family. i.e. even if they are in the fog, they can still agree to leave after 3 hours instead of spending 5 hours at their parent's house during the visit. Or they can agree to take 2 cars so that you can leave early with your child, to get them home and then your spouse can stay and hang out with his EI parents for as long as they please!!

So he can agree to a plan for the visits and time with your in laws, that limits how much crazy you're stuck putting up with each visit - that isn't dependent on him coming Out of the FOG. If he's able to see this as something he's doing in his role as your husband.

Some people find it very very hard to get out of their FOG. They are terrified of what happens if they start to see their parents clearly. They don't want to deal with their parents reactions to boundaries. 

If he can agree to the specific things that you need him to agree to, regarding his parents and their access to your child, that might be all you can go for because the rest of it is about him coming out of his FOG, which he can only do on his timetable. We can ask for things like "Let's agree to leave after 3 hours" but we can't demand that someone take on the psychological work of coming out of their FOG and seeing their parents clearly for the first time in their lives.

Sometimes we have to let go of our desire for our partner to grow psychologically, and we have to just focus on figuring out if they can get on board with some limits around how often their parents see our kids. I totally agree with Call me Cordelia. That denial is driving his behavior. If your DH doesn't want to collaborate with you on a plan for how often his parents see your child, you are walking uphill.

He doesn't have to see his parents the way you do, to agree to limit how often they see your LO.

Oh, and something else I've learned. Some people are stuck in a very "I put up with this, I suffered with it, so you can too" attitude. If you protect your LO from toxicity, your DH may feel "no one did that for me". Does that resonate? I personally believe that some people keep the family FOG going, because "no one did that for me". Meaning, they make the next generation put up with the confusion and misery they grew up with. They have learned to put up with it, so their kids should too. I believe this does drive some people's behavior and explains why they stay in denial. I think it is happening at a subconscious level.

What I felt when I had a child was the opposite. I felt a strong urge to never ever make my child live through the confusion and abuse I grew up with. I bet most of us here, felt that way upon having a child. We felt this strong feeling of "No way will my child have to put up with the FOG I grew up with". But not everyone feels that urge apparently.

Trees