The other side

[bloomie]

square - I've been wondering how you are doing and settling in. Thank you for the update!

I am imagining you in your own safe and peaceful space where things are orderly and are a reflection of you and your DD. I keep flashing back to when the mantra 'save square' was born and I am so grateful you have taken such a difficult, but life sustaining step. You are so very brave!

[SeaBreeze]

Glad to see your update! Happy to hear you are enjoying your space. I can definitely understand that!! And yes, though there may still be challenges, they are YOURS, to deal with as YOU see fit.

(As for the oil leak, if it's a leaky seal or gasket, as opposed to a cracked engine block...there is a well-known brand of oil additive favored by mechanics that includes a "stop leaks" formula in their line of products. I figure I can't name the brand here, but if you do an online search or just ask a mechanic or auto parts store, the brand will come up. I used this additive on a car that was slinging oil due to faulty gaskets, and it fixed it! Car drove fine for 2 more years until it was unfortunately totaled for different reasons. Just a thought!)

[SonofThunder]

Glad to see your update! Happy to hear you are enjoying your space. I can definitely understand that!! And yes, though there may still be challenges, they are YOURS, to deal with as YOU see fit.

(As for the oil leak, if it's a leaky seal or gasket, as opposed to a cracked engine block...there is a well-known brand of oil additive favored by mechanics that includes a "stop leaks" formula in their line of products. I figure I can't name the brand here, but if you do an online search or just ask a mechanic or auto parts store, the brand will come up. I used this additive on a car that was slinging oil due to faulty gaskets, and it fixed it! Car drove fine for 2 more years until it was unfortunately totaled for different reasons. Just a thought!)

[1footouttadefog]

Glad to read you are in your own space and that hostilities are at a minimum.

I hope your daughter comes around emotionally. 

I can remember back about 14-15 years ago when I moved onto my own room in the basement.  I did not even sleep there at first.  I just set up a TV watching area with a chair book case and a few other furnishings that were excess from around the house.

When I set up a bed down there I can remember H would come down the steps like dozens a time a night to tell me about a news headline and how so had to fight for that time and space.  And eventually retrained him to tell me everything before so headed down for the night. 

Just being able to walk into a space and know it was over, the demands on my brain capacity and physical being would stop and I could rest mentally or otherwise was so huge. 

I people outside just don't understand how life and soul encompassing it can all become. 

Relax and enjoy your place.  Be patient, your belongings will come to you over time and I agree on the cloth aspects of furnishings. 

I have a little cabin shed thingie I have been working on for years now.  Almost verything except one mattress was used or recycled.  One mattress was my daughter's, so that is different.

My goal was that everything would be used recycled or repurposed. A few items like sleeping bags cook stove and heaters and such are new now because in the aftermath of Helene I gave things away. 


My goal was to have the coolest to me possible little sanctuary out of used stuff. So far it's working a piece at a time.  There is a cute little box of cube shaped wooden drawers with hot shoes for handles, not my style actually, that I love.  Last trip out, I was able to quickly find matches, a phone charger, a multi tool and several things organized into those little drawers.  It made me so happy, Silly, but it did.  Someday I will make or find new drawer pulls and replace the horse shoes. 

I hope you have happy moments making your place your home. 
 

[notrightinthehead]

I guess I should remember that next time I see him sinking.

Yes, please do!

[Rebel13]

I moved out two months ago.

CONGRATULATIONS! I'm so, so glad things are mostly going smoothly, that you are finding things to enjoy (a clean, welcoming space that you are in charge of) and that your worst fears of the fallout did NOT come true! I can imagine that it might feel a little anticlimactic or unnecessary, given how well your husband seems to be behaving, but you seem to be very clear about all the reasons the change was the right thing for you, and how much better things are this way.

I'm so happy for you!

[square]

Bloomie, thank you.

SeaBreeze, thank you. I'm going to try the sealant - great idea.

1foot, thank you. I actually did end up with a free used sofa after all, despite not wanting to risk gross/allergenic upholstery. But I was offered one and it turned out to be a clean, pretty one that exactly matched my aesthetic. Go figure! Someone even delivered it to me! What luck!

Yesterday I got a lovely set of dishes in my aesthetic at Goodwill. I'm still looking out for some more lamps and a small coffee table, but I'm content to wait until I find them.

As for silly little things making one happy, yesterday was the first of February and February is my least favorite month. And I care nothing for Valentine's Day. Yet I found myself weirdly enthused by putting the red tablecloth on the table and asking DD to crochet a couple of pink hearts to put on it, and sticking heart shaped window clings on the windows. These tiny touches feel so nice. And I have a sage green tablecloth ready to go for next month, lol.

This may all sound unrelated to the forum topic but.. I just feel like I've been squashed for so long. I don't know. Everything was so hard. Everything was so pointless. I felt stupid and apologetic for enjoying anything. Things I tried to make nice were messed up or destroyed. And I'd get yelled at if I even just seemed a bit sad about it yet said nothing.

NRITH, I will try!

Rebel, thank you.

[Poison Ivy]

Thanks for the update, square. It's very important to find joy, even in small things and especially when so much seems to be going wrong in the world. (I pay attention to politics but this is not a political statement; I'm thinking of the deadly plane crashes last week.)

[square]

J

It's been a really rough time lately. DD has been under a lot of pressure between starting a job and doing school. I was doing everything I could to be supportive.

The job was too much for her to handle. I gently encouraged her to stock it out but she decided to quit and I accepted her decision. In my mind it was hard, but I didn't share any of that with her, just let her make her own call and move on.

At the same time, she has an exam coming up in A&P.  I've been helping her study. I struggle to find the right approach in helping to study. I had homeschooled her for most of her schooling. I'm a problem solver and tackling study materials is something I can manage well. And DD and I have developed a lot of insight into her learning and thinking styles over the years.

On the other hand, I've also wanted to encourage her independence. This is college work. Over the years I've pushed for her to do more on her own but she absolutely insists on getting whatever help she wants. Fortunately, she has indeed become more independent and mostly does her work on her own with no help. But when she decides she needs help, she feels absolutely entitled to demand it.

So we had a confluence of stressors, a big exam and new job. She quit the job. She's behind on studying. She's stressed. Really stressed.

Of course I offer her max support and help right now. I offer to split up the study guide so we can both gather the materials. She has to study and learn it but I was happy to organize part of the materials just to help out. She is generally unappreciative of such things but I try to just find the balance and move on.

So I suggest we look at the guide and figure out who should do what. She is angry about this and says unhelpful shut-down stuff like "I don't even know what you're talking about" and "Ii don't have time for this." I try to explain. I make a few suggestions. She's being incredibly rude and I'm letting it roll off because I know she's stressed but I'm already wondering how much of a doormat and maybe caretaker I'm being. How many moms are helping this much? I've created a monster.

SHe continues her NO NO NO approach which is her anxiety coping method. I ask her what she would like to do. NO NO NO. I'm done, I'm not going to stand on my head for nothing. I tell her we can try again later. She said "why am I responsible for this anyway??" and something in me just collapsed.

It felt exactly like H. When H is stressed he just yells at me about how I am to blame and demands I fix it, regardless of his responsibility or even my physical ability to do something. Many, many, many times I've been screamed at because he missed an exit driving - and I, his BLIND passenger who can't even see a 20 foot exit sign, is entirely to blame.

I don't need or want DD's gratitude.

Appreciation would sure be nice but I don't get it and I accept that.

But to hear her say what I've suspected all along, that she does in fact feel I am RESPONSIBLE for her studies and probably everything else?

Oh, no.

Folks, I can NOT accept this.

I've failed as a parent.

DD went off on me and it felt exactly like her father. I told her that I was happy to help but I was not responsible. That she would need to ASK and not demand.

Instead of backing off even just a little but she doubled down, tripled down. Several of her father's lines came out. This girl worked for two shifts and quit, but now she's pulling "you don't even have to work" on me. Folks, I worked until I couldn't anymore, my years as the sole breadwinner were not only not appreciated but demeaned. FUCK THIS. Hearing this from my daughter too?? FUCK THIS.

She had a whole list of why I owed her unlimited help, which is also crazy because I was already giving it to her. She just completely buckled at the idea that we would look at the study guide together, and nothing I suggested was good enough because she wanted me to eave a magic wand and just make it all go away. Because that's my JOB and I do a really bad job of it.

So she unloaded. I've been "nothing but mean" to her for months. She "hates my stupid apartment" and never wants to come here and just pretends she's okay. I "abandoned" her. There were some if H's greatest hits including the favorite "you have ZERO EMPATHY."

I just look and see how I've literally structured my days and life around her and her needs and feel aghast that it's been nothing at all. If I give her 100% and it adds up to zero, I've got nothing.

And it's not just because she's upset. I generally feel this attitude from her that I'm required to do what she deems necessary. I just usually let it roll off and assume that deep down she sorta appreciates it. But she's clearly laud out that she sees it like her father does - that for a variety of reasons including "their lives are hard" and "mine is so easy" that I'm obligated to take full responsibility for them and also serve as their scapegoat.

[Poison Ivy]

I'm sorry this is happening, square. One of my children, while in her teens, briefly behaved like your DD has been doing lately. In my child's situation, I think the behavior was caused by anxiety, depression, and ADD. Overall and since then (she's in her 30s now), she is grateful for my love and support and is mostly very independent. I did worry that she was going to be just like her father, my ex. She isn't.

[square]

That is very good to hear, PI.

I think I'm going to be taking a big step back and drawing a hard line that she needs to be the one "driving." She can ASK me to help with xyz, but demands are going to lead to me noping out immediately. She does not back down so I anticipate she'll pay consequences but those will be hers and not mine. So if she doesn't want to be in a position of having to back down, she needs to mind how she ASKS in the first place.

I am deeply uneasy with the emotional warfare she waged in an attempt to get me to comply. The more it didn't work, the more she doubled down.

I also put my finger on something. For H, this has all been about resentment. His negative feelings toward me come down to "your life is so easy, therefore you should be punished." It's the theme of our marriage. It comes up over and over again. My feelings about this are so mixed up. On one hand I feel like, wow, I think a lot of people would disagree that my lige is so easy. Hey, does anyone want my easy life? I'm deafblind and spent seven years trapped in a house with a psychotic man who hates me. The life everyone wants! But he really means it because what he really wants out of life is to not have to work and just hide in his room all day. I have zero respect for that. I would like to be working. I would like to be productive. His ideal life is something I honestly scorn, I can't believe I married someone who feels like that. Yet he scorns me for not working and says I do nothing all day when in fact I feel like I have bent my life around taking care of DD. And he used to shred me to bits for neing the sole breadwinner, saying every hour I worked I was "stealing from the family." Dude, what? Make it make sense.

I'm sorry guys, this is my mind right now.

[Rebel13]

I'm so sorry square. You definitely do NOT deserve to be dressed down and held responsible for problems that belong to other people.

I have been fussing lately about a couple of friends who have some struggles. I brought this up in therapy and my therapist said, "But that is their journey, not yours." I want to talk to her about it more, but in that moment I interpreted her tone and manner to almost imply that I'm TAKING SOMETHING AWAY FROM THEM by trying to solve problems that aren't mine to solve. My brain got REALLY stuck on that idea and I have been thinking about it a lot -- because of course as a codependent people-pleasing fixer I would NEVER want to take anything away from another person!!!!!

This article has been helping me a lot with this. I must have read it 20 times by now. I feel like I have been posting it everywhere, but here it is again: https://rickhanson.com/be-peace-pain-others/

More practically, don't ask me how I know, but a lot of colleges and universities have various resources to help students with study habits and tutoring for specific subjects or in general. There's a lot more awareness and support for neurodivergence and learning disabilities now than there was when I was in school. I wonder if your daughter's school has a place like that where she could get help from someone she doesn't have a lot of history with. She might be able to listen to them in a way that she can't with you.

It must be really awful to feel like you just got your own safe space and then see some of the unpleasant behaviors rear their ugly heads again. Fortunately you have all the skills and knowledge you developed to cope when you were living with your husband, and those can serve you well this time around too, even though obviously it's a different relationship. You still got this.

[Poison Ivy]

Thank you for sharing the blog post, Rebel13. It's very relevant and helpful for me.

[SonofThunder]

I also put my finger on something. For H, this has all been about resentment. His negative feelings toward me come down to "your life is so easy, therefore you should be punished." It's the theme of our marriage. It comes up over and over again. My feelings about this are so mixed up. On one hand I feel like, wow, I think a lot of people would disagree that my lige is so easy. Hey, does anyone want my easy life? I'm deafblind and spent seven years trapped in a house with a psychotic man who hates me. The life everyone wants! But he really means it because what he really wants out of life is to not have to work and just hide in his room all day. I have zero respect for that. I would like to be working. I would like to be productive. His ideal life is something I honestly scorn, I can't believe I married someone who feels like that. Yet he scorns me for not working and says I do nothing all day when in fact I feel like I have bent my life around taking care of DD. And he used to shred me to bits for neing the sole breadwinner, saying every hour I worked I was "stealing from the family." Dude, what? Make it make sense.

Hi Square, sorry you're going through a sucky patch with your DD. 

Regarding your H, you asked to "make it make sense." Ok. Projection.

As difficult as projection is to deal with, the fact that it occurs is actually validation that we are the opposite from the PD who is projecting.  Imo it's that obvious opposite in us that supplies the needed hurt-points the PD needs to not feel out of control. It's total predation to feed.

If the PD were to project something that is actually true about both the PD and the non, it would return very low points or none at all because no opposite exists.  So, when your H projected something that conveyed "your life is so easy, therefore you should be punished.", it came from him with three hidden truths.

1. Im lazy
2. You are a hard worker and even through difficulty. (opposite)
3. I need hurt-points from #2 to make myself feel powerful.

When he "...used to shred me to bits for being the sole breadwinner, saying every hour I worked I was "stealing from the family."

1. I am an unproductive, unsupportive husband and father. 
2. My wife supports us all by her hard work outside and inside the home (opposite)
3. I need hurt-points from #2 to make myself feel powerful. 

Both #1 and #2 are true, but they are hidden in the projected (and effective) insult.

Wishing you the best.

SoT

[square]

Thanks for helping me through this, guys.

PI, you have an interesting point about anxiety and ADD (I don't believe my DD is depressed). I do know DD has a frustrating "shutdown" when her anxiety spikes, and literally everything is a NO. If she asked me for $20 during one of those episodes and I opened my purse and said "I don't have a $20 but here's a $50" I swear she would refuse it.

I know other people, such as teachers, find it VERY frustrating, not just me. One problem is that she actually does reset okay if left by herself for a while but she absolutely refuses to go calm down. She really freaked out when I walked away, like full on hysteria, and unfortunately I just had nothing left to soothe her with. Didn't yell or anything, just couldn't provide comfort.

The ADD thing probably contributes to overwhelm. I find it easy to make a plan and break projects into tasks and so on, so my family just totally relies on me to do it. I can live without appreciation but being blamed for fixing only 99% of someone else's problem, well, it's not cool with me.

DD has matured, as you said yours did. So, thanks.

[square]

Thanks for the validation, Rebel.

I definitely identify with this way of telling a helpful person to help someone by letting them go on their journey.

It sort of reminds me of the epiphany "what people think of me is none of my business." I definitely respect that! Well, I think it's a bit different for marriages but in general, yeah.

That is an interesting article indeed, I will haveto sit with it. Thank you.

Also an interesting thought on college resources.

Yes, I used what I learned here and with my H last night with DD. I wasn't perfect but I managed myself okay even while flooded. It wasn't any fun.

I have to admit, it kind of hurts when she says she "hates" my "stupid apartment." As you said, it's my safe space, and I tried really hard to make it comfortable for her. But I have to accept that she does not like it and that's okay. Her safe space is her room at the house, and she spends less time there because I'm here and that sucks for her.

I am thinking I am going to buy some food for her to have at the house so she can stay there more. I don't ask her to come over, she just does, and maybe it's just for food. Her dad doesn't stock any food.

[square]

Thanks, SoT. That does make sense. It does feel better to have it laid out that it's really the opposite and that it's useless unless there is a difference between us.

I think the best part is that your framework clearly explains why I could be devalued for both breadwinning and for not working due to disability. I think that was the sticking point for me. If it was just one I could have made logical sense of it, but getting hit from both sides melted my circuits. I think I can process it now.

[square]

A good update.

After a night to rest, DD showed up today and made some effort to try to pick my mood up, which I think may literally be the first time she ever did that kind of emotional work. Just like trying to make me laugh and stuff. This is a big deal to me because I'm used to having to do the work of making myself feel better and often others too. And it can be a LOT of work in my situation.

I let her succeed in that venture but still felt committed to holding the line about the studying being hers to lead on. And sure enough, she started testing herself out loud about the first part of the material. Then stated a plan for the day for how she would study. Terrific. But what about the new material? She asked, yes asked, me if I could help her. YES!!! And I suggested she pick which part she wanted to do while I worked on the rest, and she did.

It was hOuRs of work and there's more to do tomorrow but I think she accepted the concept that she's responsible and I'm not and it's just nice that I'm willing to help if she asks.

Discussing this directly is a no go, so it's down to reading indirect signals, which is fine.

[SonofThunder]

What a positive update! So happy to read what good things occurred for you and DD.  Congratulations and well done mom!

SoT

[notrightinthehead]

I am late to join this discussion. I was very touched by your description of  the situation with your daughter, Square, and I can relate to it as I had a hard time with my adult daugther, who moved back in with me, before Christmas too. I was lucky to get away for a month, while re-considering my behaviour and when I returned we had a few talks in which I outlined what kind of behaviour I expected. I also told her that some of what she had said to me had hurt me deeply.
SoT had encouraged me to put my foot down and move away from my co-dependent, doormat behaviour. Truth is, I felt so guilty about her childhood that I was far too tolerant.
Just like in your situation, once we free ourselves and allow us to stand up for ourselves, even with our children, they notice the change and treat us with more respect.
From what you describe you have and are going well far beyond of what could be expected from you. You are tolerant of rather ungrateful and dismissive behaviour. You don't need to bend and fold up any more. You are valuable, worthy of kindness and respect. Use the tools you unfortunately had to learn. You deserve better.