Therapist TL:DR - Why are you volunteering $$ to abuser?

[MaxedOut]

I'll try and stay vague-ish per forum guidance and my own interests but wanted to hear others' thoughts/experiences. A major issue in relationship with sTBXw was what I call "reverse financial abuse" as in controlling, aggressive, verbally abusive behaviors around finances, even though I am the primary earner (e.g., I better not so much as have a whiff of annoyance about another big credit card bill, me mentioning maybe we can plan a budget is me being abusive and controlling, me holding the stress of financial management and tasks despite her refusing to share those and getting called controlling for handling it, me avoiding spending on myself to somewhat balance out her spending).

So coming into the territory of separation and divorce, I have pretty habituated patterns of:
- Avoiding things I know will make her angry;
- Avoidant, fawning, and conciliatory behaviors around money topics that could trigger her shame;
- Totally imbalanced expectations for the two of us (what others consider fair couples financial stuff is not near this territory);
- Her characterizations of me as a terrible person ringing in my head;
- Years of her talking about me leaving being a thing that will destroy her and leave her "living on the streets"
- Compassion for her money worries (her earning ability has changed significantly)

And, in the present time, I would like to reach a quick settlement agreement, as would she. Plus I feel guilty generally about the impacts to her of my leaving. And don't want her thinking I was a jerk about the divorce terms (while understanding she may think that no matter what).

How this has played out is an initial draft offer from me that is above what a court would likely grant her. Aspects have left my therapist and a couple of friends shaking their heads (and the first lawyer I consulted with). And said head shakers don't know the half of it, when it comes to treatment of me.

Also, I and therapist are worried about potential safety/DV risks (which made me lean towards a good offer). Therapist is pretty good about calling me out for putting my own interests after SOs and others and pointed out that financial recovery is part of recovery (continuing to view things as "what can I provide her?" is not part of recovery). I thought about a specific and very clear logic-reason I had said to the lawyers/others about one part of the offer. I repeated it to the therapist and realized moments later it didn't really come from me. It came from me in her worldview. If positions were reversed I wouldn't expect things to be that way or interpret them the same.

And of course, the early responses from spouse on the agreement were very much lashing out. And signals since indicate she will be looking to extract a lot more and maybe feels I am out to "lowball" her. I was hoping a more than fair offer would keep that grounded. And it may still, as legal advice to her comes into play (or not).

Part of the past week or two has been realizing how deep the programming is from years of control and verbal/emotional abuse. And how off from normal my assessments of "this is going ok, on the better range of reactions I expected." How much a few nice words and "sorry" balances out a series of nasty grams.

I am rereading Splitting, which has been really helpful in understanding the typical ranges of behaviors (and made me grateful we do not have children).

My current feeling is not to consider much more in negotiations, and be ready to file with court rapidly if agreement looks like rounds of stuff (the settle quickly part for me is about avoiding stuff like contentious, dragged out process that may drag right into court anyway).

My questions are less about the legal experience and more about the interior landscape. Have others had similar processes of de-programming? Struggling with divorce process after similar financial control/intimidation? Any advice or previews of the internal journey?

[notrightinthehead]

MaxedOut - how appropriate your name is! I know a bit about feeling guilty and going beyond what most people would consider generous. What strikes me in your post is how much you are in your wife's head. How much you see all your decisions in her light. Would you be willing to use a thought stop technique and tell yourself to go back to your own mind, your own needs, your own expectations, and your own healing? Your loved one has grown so big, that there is barely anything left of you, it seems to me.
You have a very good head on your shoulders and you can think clearly and rationlly. You also seem to have good advice available and a support system. Maybe it is time now to listen to the advice and reduce the dominance of the person living in your head. You could - every time you go into her persona in your mind - tell yourself to STOP and make an effort to find our what you want. What would be in YOUR best interest.
It's not easy. I am 6 years no contact and still can hear my NPDh judgement of me several times a day. Then I tell myself that I don't care what he thinks and go on with the task on hand.
You might ask your therapist about co-dependency. Or check out CoDA. They have online meetings too.
I wish you a lot of strength and keep my fingers crossed for you that it will go as fast as you hope for.

[escapingman]

MaxedOut, take a step back and let the divorce lawyers deal with everything. Whatever you are going to offer is not going to be enough. You ex will also be OK with whatever she is going to get. You have a lawyer so you don't have to deal with the financial aspects of the divorce yourself. Then during negotiation you can surrender bits to reach an agreement in the end. During my divorce my now ex wife asked for more than I could ever have given (basically a monthly allowance higher than my monthly salary). In end she settled for very close to my initial offer, and she is doing fine.

Now is time to put yourself first, you have lived in her world for long enough, now it's your time.

Good luck!

[MaxedOut]

Super helpful insight and reminders from you both. Notright, what I have been realizing is I am often not aware of being in her framework at certain times. I think I am doing well being in my own head because there are lots of areas I am conscious of and doing well to reject and shift. And each day I am a little more "me." But then something like this area leave me realize, crap, that's *my values* but laid onto her framing. And then looking at things from my value but not her framing, or by switching roles, makes me see the gap.

I was listening to a Dr. Ramani episode yesterday with Juliet Landau who shared a reflective process she and her husband (both of whom have NPD parents) started during a movie project about hires - asking they are inclined to bring someone on due to x, y, z qualities or due to a certain kind of familiarity. I think I need to create something like that and figure out when to apply it.

Thank you for the reminder/reassurance NB. I feel more grounded today. I got a sort of ridiculous pay-this request about a bill from sTBXw yesterday that was not helping. I keep reminding myself to not get wrapped up in details until we have a response on the table and specifically told my lawyer not to address/discuss specific issues until there is a whole response back.

I think it is also time to revive a mental trick I used years ago to defang the internal voice fond of drinking (I stopped years ago) when I start feeling fear and intimidation rise up. I have been reminding myself I am safe, not under her control anymore, and not obligated to manage her emotions.

I have been building a bit of a an ad-hoc mental collection of reminders/affirmations as things pop in my head and resonate:
- I didn't rescue myself just to __________
- This [text, email, reaction] is why I needed to leave, and will not be my reality for much longer
- I didn't want to choose between her and me and I did my best
- This too shall pass. I can endure the discomfort.
- Oddly, given my agn-atheist bent, the first week or so "Let go and let God" was in my head (I think the let go part was the biggie during the flood of lash out messages that came my way initially)
- Does this need a response? Does it need a response now? Does it need a response from me?
- Is my body/instinct telling me something? (If applicable, It's ok to not do something that feels emotionally unsafe even if your rational mind thinks it's physically safe)
- What is the outcome I want and do I think the action I'm considering move that direction?
- BIFF: Brief, informative -but boy, not extra info-, friendly, firm communications

I have also observed my SNS reactions shifting from mostly flight/freeze anxiety trauma type stuff similar to recent years (but with less fawn) to more fight/flee. And I've been working to discharge/calm/engage PNS when I feel that happening. Notably, some of the chronic anxiety symptoms are easing (I was *not* an anxious person prior to this relationship).

But yeah, I think I need a reality check process/reflective practice. I have the advantage now that I am not having to respond to my spouse in the moment. so there is space for some extra process.

[NBRiverGuy]

- Years of her talking about me leaving being a thing that will destroy her and leave her "living on the streets"

This one has got a pretty strong grasp on me right now. "I couldn't/wouldn't want to live without you" talk.

[square]

I am often not aware of being in her framework at certain times. I think I am doing well being in my own head because there are lots of areas I am conscious of and doing well to reject and shift. And each day I am a little more "me." But then something like this area leave me realize, crap, that's *my values* but laid onto her framing. And then looking at things from my value but not her framing, or by switching roles, makes me see the gap.

Makes sense. Your value "I want to be fair" is truly yours and a solid one. But her framework is "this (excessive thing) is what's fair."

I too struggle to escape the framework. My H's framework has been voiced very loudly and consistently and has drowned out my own voice.

- This [text, email, reaction] is why I needed to leave, and will not be my reality for much longer

I never had to do this, but I was prepared to say "this is why" if he reacted to the separation in a toxic way. And last year when I said I was done (and got myself on the apartment waiting list), he listed my faults (real and perceived) in an effort to deflect - as if he was the one rejecting me. I said he was free to leave. That shut that down.

- I didn't want to choose between her and me and I did my best

I did say something a bit similar. He kept phrasing things in a way that bothered me, like "are you sure you want to leave?" and "so this is your choice?"

I responded each time by saying "this isn't what I wanted at all. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with you. I tried everything I could think of. I even begged you. It's not what I want, it's what I need."

I said that several times and maybe something imprinted, I don't know. I think it was partly reassuring to him because it wasn't "you're horrible and I hate you" but "I care and wanted to be with you but can't."

- Oddly, given my agn-atheist bent, the first week or so "Let go and let God" was in my head (I think the let go part was the biggie during the flood of lash out messages that came my way initially)

I'm a nearly lifelong agn-atheist recently turned agn-believer, so fist bump or something.

Anyway, I have really really enjoyed giving up responsibilities that are not mine. I was raised to be responsible for everything, not to a toxic degree but it was burdensome. I like being responsible for myself but it's a relief to let others carry their own stuff.

But closer to your point, I had to jump off this cliff not knowing what I'll land on. I still don't know. It is scary but also there is a part of me that appreciates the experience. It feels irresponsible in some ways, but in other ways it feels more... natural? Not sure.

(I was *not* an anxious person prior to this relationship).

Saaaaaame.

[NBRiverGuy]

This [text, email, reaction] is why I needed to leave, and will not be my reality for much longer

I made a list after W's last tirade titled "These Are the Things She Said to You". Whenever I begin to doubt myself, I pull that list out and read over them one-by-one.

[MaxedOut]

I have a list like that too NB. And the bullet list I posted are really inside voice reminders, LOL.

[Here Again]

Wow, i can totally relate, so much to talk about

I'll try and stay vague-ish per forum guidance and my own interests but wanted to hear others' thoughts/experiences. A major issue in relationship with sTBXw was what I call "reverse financial abuse" as in controlling, aggressive, verbally abusive behaviors around finances, even though I am the primary earner (e.g., I better not so much as have a whiff of annoyance about another big credit card bill, me mentioning maybe we can plan a budget is me being abusive and controlling, me holding the stress of financial management and tasks despite her refusing to share those and getting called controlling for handling it, me avoiding spending on myself to somewhat balance out her spending).

So coming into the territory of separation and divorce, I have pretty habituated patterns of:
- Avoiding things I know will make her angry;
- Avoidant, fawning, and conciliatory behaviors around money topics that could trigger her shame;
- Totally imbalanced expectations for the two of us (what others consider fair couples financial stuff is not near this territory);
- Her characterizations of me as a terrible person ringing in my head;
- Years of her talking about me leaving being a thing that will destroy her and leave her "living on the streets"
- Compassion for her money worries (her earning ability has changed significantly)

And, in the present time, I would like to reach a quick settlement agreement, as would she. Plus I feel guilty generally about the impacts to her of my leaving. And don't want her thinking I was a jerk about the divorce terms (while understanding she may think that no matter what).

How this has played out is an initial draft offer from me that is above what a court would likely grant her. Aspects have left my therapist and a couple of friends shaking their heads (and the first lawyer I consulted with). And said head shakers don't know the half of it, when it comes to treatment of me.

Also, I and therapist are worried about potential safety/DV risks (which made me lean towards a good offer). Therapist is pretty good about calling me out for putting my own interests after SOs and others and pointed out that financial recovery is part of recovery (continuing to view things as "what can I provide her?" is not part of recovery). I thought about a specific and very clear logic-reason I had said to the lawyers/others about one part of the offer. I repeated it to the therapist and realized moments later it didn't really come from me. It came from me in her worldview. If positions were reversed I wouldn't expect things to be that way or interpret them the same.

And of course, the early responses from spouse on the agreement were very much lashing out. And signals since indicate she will be looking to extract a lot more and maybe feels I am out to "lowball" her. I was hoping a more than fair offer would keep that grounded. And it may still, as legal advice to her comes into play (or not).

Part of the past week or two has been realizing how deep the programming is from years of control and verbal/emotional abuse. And how off from normal my assessments of "this is going ok, on the better range of reactions I expected." How much a few nice words and "sorry" balances out a series of nasty grams.

I am rereading Splitting, which has been really helpful in understanding the typical ranges of behaviors (and made me grateful we do not have children).

My current feeling is not to consider much more in negotiations, and be ready to file with court rapidly if agreement looks like rounds of stuff (the settle quickly part for me is about avoiding stuff like contentious, dragged out process that may drag right into court anyway).

My questions are less about the legal experience and more about the interior landscape. Have others had similar processes of de-programming? Struggling with divorce process after similar financial control/intimidation? Any advice or previews of the internal journey?

[Here Again]

I am so grateful for this wonderul web site and Forum. Seeking insight on HOW to exit the relationship from life partner who is spending me into oblivion. Enough already. I can't take it anymore. I know it has to end. No legal issues. But I face guilt and perceived obligation. Screaming for help.

[Rebel13]

Hi Here Again,

You might want to start a new thread for this post, and also I think I've read a good discussion of this topic elsewhere on the forum. However, here's a link to a post by one of my favorite bloggers where she asks her commenters to share their ideas and experiences about making financial and legal preparation to leave a relationship.

https://www.chumplady.com/how-did-you-line-up-your-ducks-2/

Best of luck to you and I hope you can find the help you need.