What do you mean by boundaries?

[Pig wrestler]

The book is on my reading list. I'll get to it. In the meantime, what the heck are y'all talking about boundaries for? I didn't realize there were boundaries in marriage? I'm being perfectly honest here. It is such a foreign concept to me. What does that even look like?

[NBRiverGuy]

There are boundaries in every relationship and many of us here struggle with setting them. Boundaries are personal and unique to every individual which is why they are so hard to define. You have to set your own limits and when someone, whether it is a casual acquaintance or your wife, violates them you must have a counteraction in place and follow through. For example. My BPDw has a habit of verbally attacking me in circles for hours at a time. I did not have a personal boundary set to get out of the circle and it would go on for three plus hours sometimes. I finally set a boundary where now if she says something hateful, finishes her thought, and then circles back to the beginning to start over again, I say, "You have already expressed your thought on that and you are repeating yourself. I am removing myself from the conversation." I walk away. If she follows me, trying to start it back up, I say, "I have left this conversation. If you continue to follow me, I am leaving the house." And I follow through.

[NBRiverGuy]

Wow! Thanks NBR.

You are welcome. That is just one example. I would say that a common theme for those of us in long-term relationships with PDs is that we have failed to set clear boundaries for the PD person. Like you, I did not know what setting boundaries meant because I had healthy family relationships where personal boundaries were simply understood. PDs' lack of respect for personal boundaries is one of their defining characteristics which is why it is so necessary for us nons to define our boundaries for them. When you first begin setting boundaries with your PD, be prepared for massive resistance.

[square]

You are asking great questions.

We have boundaries because no matter how close we are to another person, we are separate people.

We each have rights and responsibilities.

You get to decide what happens to your body, you get to decide what your values are, you have the right to your own private thoughts, you have the right to like and dislike what you wish, and so on.

Of course in a close relationship, we consider each other and affect each other. Often in a marriage, a couple will form overlapping values, for example - but as individuals, never exactly identical. To have identical values actually would require one person subsuming their own to adopt the other's.

In a marriage, we are consuderate about our bodies, both offering our own and accepting our spouse's, not only in terms of intimacy but also for things like a spouse doing hard labor to help the other, a spouse physically protecting another from a threat, a spouse choosing to expose themselves to the other's viral illness to provide care to them, and on and on.

But these must remain choices and not the result of coercion and control. With PDs, there is a marked imbalance here where the PD demands some form of capitulation from another, takes away the rights and responsibilities of another.

As flawed human beings we all, not just PDs, stumble often and infringe on others. But with PDs the imbalance is severe.

Your wirk, should you choose to accept it, is to learn what your inherent rights and responsibilities are, and how to live those boundaries.

To live them well involves no control of others. We simply decide what we will do or not do, tolerate or not tolerate, and how we will respond if we will not tolerate something.

Those reasoned and moral responses may include:

Refusing to escalate conflicts

Remaining calm

Discarding feelings of guilt when we decide guilt is not called for

Choosing our own actions despite other demands

Allowing others to think and feel as they choose

Choosing healthier coping mechanisms

Removing ourselves from conflict

[NBRiverGuy]

Thanks Square. I will be reading and re reading your post until it makes sense

You can click on a user's name and see their post history. Do yourself a favor and read through Square's posts. She has a unique way with words and helpful insights. She will also be direct with you if she feels you are being too wishy-washy. I mean that in the most complimentary way, Square. 

[SonofThunder]

Pig wrestler, notice in the replies thus far, that boundaries are NOT punishment.  It's a very thin line in execution of self-protecting boundary actions & reactions and so well worth your time to learn PROPER boundaries. 

*If you desire, Cloud & Townsend also wrote the book Boundaries in Marriage. 

Ive said this elsewhere on the forum, but imo it's a good analogy and easy to visualize. Let's say that today, the road repair crew started work on repairing a bridge that you use daily to get to/from work.  The only way to get to work otherwise takes an extra 20 minutes! Uggghh!! 

The road repair crew does not put up a hopeful sign that says:

"drivers, please dont try and drive through our construction because we don't want to be hurt by you or for you to hurt yourself". 

Instead, they put up a thick concrete barrier and warning/detour signs.  If you try to drive through the concrete wall, you may end up injured, but the road crew will be safe.  That wall and the warning signs about the bridge are together a PROPER boundary.

You may feel punished by the road crew for having to take the detour but the road crew did not create the boundary to punish you, but to protect themselves and their bridge work.  You have no ability to alter the boundary and again, they didn't ask you if you would think about their needs; they just controlled their own actions/reactions and you had to detour. 

When you are designing proper boundaries, your actions/reactions are your designs for yourself.  You cannot control the actions/reactions of your PDw, but as you read in the above replies, the PD may alter their actions when you activate a boundary for yourself and therefore you may need additional boundaries (planned for yourself in advance) to handle the steady escalation (example from NBRiverGuy a PD spouse following you when you walk away and so your next boundary gets put into action if followed). 

Boundaries is a critical tool to master.

From the Toolbox:
https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/boundaries

SoT

[Rebel13]

You may feel punished by the road crew for having to take the detour but the road crew did not create the boundary to punish you, but to protect themselves and their bridge work.  You have no ability to alter the boundary and again, they didn't ask you if you would think about their needs; they just controlled their own actions/reactions and you had to detour. 

So brilliant.

[MaxedOut]

From the Toolbox:
https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/boundaries

I had read this piece a time or two before but missed the little link at the bottom, which is a nice one:

B.R.E.A.T.H.E
Yes, B.R.E.A.T.H.E. 

Boundaries. We erect boundaries to protect us from abuse.

Respect.  We respect ourselves enough to say "No" to more abuse.

Equal.  We are equal to anyone, and won't allow others to demean us. 

Action.  We will do more than talk-- we will take action to change our lives.

Truth.  We will stand up for ourselves and speak the truth, or let our silence speak in NC.

Heroes.  We will be our own heroes, drawing on our inner strength to overcome adversity.

Everyone.  We understand that everyone is entitled to live their own lives without interference from a PD.

Have a happy day tomorrow!

Contributed by member illogical

[SonofThunder]

Thank you for your kind words, Rebel13

SoT

[bloomie]

Pig wrestler - what great questions and stellar insights the community has offered so far.

I wanted to add... not sure if another member has mentioned this already, but in my own experience, those that have disordered behavior and ways of responding to the world respond very differently to another person's limits and boundaries than those who are reasonably healthy in their behaviors and world view.

When I first began to understand how wide open I had thrown the gates to my life - my energy, resources, time and attention I didn't realize how important it is to do circle of intimacy work alongside of boundary work.

I had made myself a huge target for those who would manipulate and take advantage and I was so depleted I applied the same boundaries to everyone at first.  And I blundered and confused myself and others and communicated poorly! 

Not everyone belongs in our inner circle that we have a relationship with and interactions with. Not everyone is safe. Those in my most intimate circle have more access to my resources, my confidences, my time and emotional energy than those further out. I preserve and protect and set my course to prioritize those closest to me.

At the center, is me. And some things are just meant for me and are about me. And I protect and preserve the things that are essentially me.

What boundaries and circle of intimacy work offer us and allow us to do is to invite others into safety. An example is a boundary we have here at Out of the FOG and that is we don't allow name calling. So, as you share here, there is a level of safety around that guideline and boundary in the community.

In our most intimate relationships, where we are highly invested, it is normal to feel some fear and angst when we experience push back as we, for example, remove ourselves from a circular conversation as mentioned above, or refuse to cooperate with another's dysregulation or emotional immaturity. What we can offer is compassion and a kind of boundaries 'after care' when appropriate because this is a shift for our loved ones and that can be hard on both sides.

This is deep work, worthy work and takes time. I am excited for you to begin to speak the language of love and safety within your family that is a byproduct of knowing where we begin and another ends and what is ours to do.

Here is a helpful article that describes the circles of intimacy piece of all of this fairly well.

https://www.dis-sos.com/circles-of-relationships/

[SonofThunder]

Wow what wonderful insights bloomie!  Bravo!

SoT

[NBRiverGuy]

This is deep work, worthy work and takes time. I am excited for you to begin to speak the language of love and safety within your family that is a byproduct of knowing where we begin and another ends and what is ours to do.

It is easy to lose your sense of self when you are in a long-term relationship with a PD. It happens without you even realizing. It took a professional therapist to tell me just this week, "You have so many thoughts and feelings swirling around up there that you don't know which ones are yours and which ones are hers." My 'deep work' right now is to separate those things out. It is not nearly as easy as it sounds.

[MaxedOut]

Here's a good vid from Jimmy Knowles on PD playbook reactions to boundaries (5 ways a Narcissist will Weaponize your Boundaries): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hsmtx6kSeM&t=484s
Most of his content is more general but a decent amount geared towards partners of people with PDs and PD traits.