So this is what I have to look forward to?

[Pig wrestler]

Hey everyone. Thanks for all of the support lately. I read each and everyone's replies, usually more than once. 😉

I am so NOT gonna even attempt couples counseling. Her chops are way too good.

Question though for the group... So I'm pretty much going to be labeled the bad guy in this relationship (no matter what huh?) whether I continue to stay and we have very superficial conversations or I decide to leave??? She's so polished, I don't stand a chance trying to explain things to friends. Family has seen the other side of things, they would definitely support me.
It just really kind of sucks to be in this position.

I guess I'm really interested in, those of you who chose to stay... what did your relationship look like? And do the questions ever cease from the PD spouse? I know she's fishing, looking to feed her self. I know she does have a FoA. Did y'all stay for the kids and just live separate lives?

How long did it take for things to plateau off?

Thanks again!

[SonofThunder]

I stayed for many years after becoming educated; for particular financial reasons and for both my kids to finish college to reduce their family turmoil while in career studies. That choice is particular to me and my situation and I know some who stay indefinitely and others who decided to leave with young kids, to give the children at least 50% peaceful time in the non-PD's new home as they grow toward adulthood.

I believed the toolbox would enable me to withstand that long haul, but my growing education taught me that even greater intensifying devaluation, later coupled with discard (IDD cycle = Idealization, Devaluation, Discard) was my future and that idealization would never return because I stopped dancing the Karpman drama triangle with my spouse, which works to cycle the IDD over and over.

My experience therefore was a very careful, intensely on-guard (and frankly exhausting) life around a very disgruntled housemate who covertly manipulated me in the need to feed. The late-onset of discard alongside devaluation was what finally pushed me across the line that a seasoned comrade here on Out of the FOG well defines and it goes something like:

"When the pain of staying eclipses the pain of departing, you will know its time." 

That saying was very true for me, but in hindsight, I was pleased with my endurance and education throughout that very difficult period. "Plateau off"... did not occur for me, but rather increasingly covert and deep attempts to punish me to feed her need to supply 'self', through combined devaluation and discard in all types of situations. Im a better skilled person because of the experiences although run ragged both emotionally and physically.  Wishing you the best in your decision making and no matter what, i suggest you master the toolbox through practice, failures, successes and reviewing the 'game-tapes' after each incident to align the toolbox and your skills to improve and reset for the next round. 

SoT

[zad7242]

I am at the "I don't think I can ever forgive you for what you've done to me, but we will be together forever and ever" stage of discarding/valuation/devaluation.

[SonofThunder]

SoT- thank you.

This discard phase you are talking about...it's not actually them throwing you out, right? From what I am reading and experiencing, she never really wants to ultimately get rid of me. Just discard me enough through her words that I come back to her once again. Is this what you are referring to?

I am reading a book now on the IDD cycle and it sounds strangely familiar to me.

I know my education is just beginning but man, this is crappy. The more I learn, the more I recognize, the more it hurts.

Pig wrestler,

Imo, the discard stage has many ways in which it can be administered by the PD.  In your case, its a spouse and also a spouse with kids, so you may experience the discard in ways related to your husband/wife relationship and also in situational ways in the family dynamic.  I also believe discard may be experienced differently depending on the gender of the PD, gender of the nonPD and relationship of the nonPD to the PD (spouse, parent, sibling, friend and so on).

I agree with you that FoA keeps a PD in the relationship, unless they can line up a replacement supply source while still in the original relationship or immediately on the heels of a true departure to keep FoA to a minimum. I personally believe statistically that last comment may apply more to a male PD vs a female PD, but I have no proof to back that opinion. I believe males are more likely to cheat and/or up and leave as a masculine show of who's boss and in the male world, other males may actually applaud that behavior of their PD friend, which is in itself a source of supply. 

Because discard can be very uniquely applied to specific situations within these particular dynamics and unique ways inside our specific relationship, I will instead link to a shorter summary type Dr Ramani video from her Glossary of Narcissistic Relationships video series.  She has other deeper-dive videos on discard, so search up those if interested in more from her.

In my own experience, I was married to my wife and empty-nested, so discarding was crafted specifically to make me feel invisible, unimportant and unnecessary in ways that were catered by her to a male/husband/father.  I could make a long list of ways that Mrs SoT designed to convey those three attributes and it even includes things I found out after they were carried out, in which I was purposefully shielded from any awareness yet it affected me in deep and hurtful ways (emotionally, financially, sexually, situationally).

Oppositely, some discard methods were carried out purposefully in my presence or only in my awareness, yet I was unable to dictate her actions/reactions, but only my own.  Imo PD's are hyper-aware to the subtlest things and they get a feed from the discard damage they are inflicting. I was just a source of food supply that was not feeding properly, so if devaluation wasn't causing me to rollover and give in to compliance, then the vast list of deep ways at letting me know I don't matter, provided food supply for my PDw's 'self'. 

Dr Ramani link below for the overview.

When narcissists "devalue" and "discard" (Glossary of Narcissistic Relationships)
https://youtu.be/Oik4IsgQ4uk

SoT

[SonofThunder]

My day to day was like living with an unsatisfied, highly disgruntled college roommate who was behaving as if she was trying to make me to move out, but had no friggin' idea who would even cover the other half of the rent if I did.  Pure ridiculousness.

SoT

[MaxedOut]

So I'm pretty much going to be labeled the bad guy in this relationship (no matter what huh?) whether I continue to stay and we have very superficial conversations or I decide to leave???

Welcome to Stage 3.

But seriosly, you have to get comfortable with the knowledge that you will be labeled the bad guy regardless. There is some freedom in that, no? Plenty of nons- find out that even being the one left,even with their spouse cheating and all sorts of stuff, did not provide a Get Out of Jail free card on being the bad person (and persecutor in the Karpman triangle...).

I think past is prologue in a lot of ways. My STBX's relationships with friends and family includes a mix of permanent bad guy status and dead relationships and others that fluxed some. Part of the equation is whether they want to or try to get back together (love bombing, promises to change, etc.). My instinct was that my wife would not because that wasn't really a part of the smaller IDD/abuse cycles. And, I was right.

It is both sobering and sad to realize it may or probably will be the case that you are "split black" permanently (and frustrating...). It also contains a gift. A lot of my time, engergy, and stress over the years was about showing I wasn't the monster she saw during dysregulation/devaluation and that I love and care for her, despite what that black-and-white thinking said (and also gently pushing on the more extreme idealization points). So much of my thinking, weighing, planning was about trying to manage her reactions to things. Before I saw the "I'm going to be the bad guy here" I realized in everyday conflict cycles that "it does't really matter what I do here...there is no answer to the puzzle... sure there are things that are not helpful or that are not how I do things... but it's really about the cycle, the script, the wounds I can't fix."

I could be a little more relaxed, and felt less like the person always listening for ticking then sweating and panicing trying to figure out whether to cut the red wire or the white wire. I then could see patterns more easily and create and enforce boundaries better. You realize the person will take intense anger out on you regardless, but that often they will probably be reregulated in a fairly predictable time frame (whether a few hours, the next day, or you see patterns where its probably going to be two weeks of escalating confict, peak, then several weeks of calm before tensiosn starts to build). For many PDs it's as much about time and working through a sort of... script of emotions/thinking. There sure were and are things I can do to make it worse but a surprisingly large number of things that are sort of neutral. Sure I'd get criticized for different things but it doesn't change the feeling angry, transferring that, assigning reasons, etc. part. Gray rock, medium chill, yellow rock, getting out of dodge.... initial resistance but basically the same cycles. But with me getting abused, hooked, and carried in the emotional storm less.

There's such power in that, because you then have two new questions:

• If you know this is how it ends (or at least it ends how it ends) no matter what you do, what do you want to do?
• If you are not really able to change stuff or steer outcomes, what should you base your decisions and behavior on?

"I didn't cause it, I can't cure it, I can't control it."

[MaxedOut]

Understand I am not trying to be flippant or say it's a fore gone conclusion. I am literally going through this right now; the switching between negative splitting and more moderated moods and attempts to handle things in ways that are mutual that characterized the first month of separation are gone. It's just terrible stuff. I'm just a conglomeration of awful characteristics to her. There's just hate and anger.

And it hurts. It's sad and awful and hard when I am also grieving the relationship. I love her and care about her and miss many things about the her, the relationship, our life, but that processing is not a journey we are taking together. And coming to some peace about that prior has helped me not to totally spin out and to be able to better make decisions (neither getting swayed by trying to meet unmeetable demands nor getting into a an adversarial hate filled mindset myself).

[Queenfrog]

I long ago stopped worrying about whether I'm painted as the "bad guy." This site has helped with that. PigWrestler, what kinds of questions are you referring to?

I'm staying in my relationship with uPDh indefinitely for a few reasons that I won't detail on this particular thread. I wouldn't count on any "plateau." For me, things have mellowed out a bit because he is aging and just doesn't have all the spitfire that he used to. His mental acuity is starting to decline, too, and I think that's forcing him to give me a little bit more respect in a way. Your results may vary.

The person saying that you'll just be talking about the weather is correct. Beyond the Toolbox, I try not to share anything too personal with my spouse, because it leads to hurt every time. I tell him white lies, too, like when he asked me the other day whether I'm glad I married him. It's all distancing, but I have to protect myself and I don't want to cause him any unnecessary hurt. Still, we have some moments of closeness, and we try to take care of one another as best we can. (His caretaking is over the top and controlling; my caretaking is too little.)

After suffering decades of abuse, I spend a lot of time and energy pumping myself up, stage-managing our relationship, managing my "fleas", etc. If you stay, understand that it will take a huge chunk out of your life that could have been spent on other things.

I am in awe of the sophisticated psychological talk on here. I still have a lot to learn.

[Cascade]

I have decided to stay. Our relationship has grown more peaceful with our kids being grown. We do talk about the weather, and we can talk a bit about other things, but for the most part we don't talk much. I'm an introvert so I'm okay with the lack of conversation. One thing I miss is emotional intimacy, since that is one thing my spouse doesn't seem capable of providing. It's not safe for me to share anything with him that I want to keep private, since he has shared the things I've said to others. He also still enjoys pushing my buttons, with both the things he says and little things he does around the house to annoy me. His latest is turning around the soap dispensers so they are facing the wrong way. 

[blunk]

He also still enjoys pushing my buttons, with both the things he says and little things he does around the house to annoy me. His latest is turning around the soap dispensers so they are facing the wrong way. 

Cascade, this reminds me of my BPDxh. He would insist that I placed the toilet paper roll the wrong way. He would change it, I would change it back, again and again. Until one day I decided that it was a silly thing to get upset about, and I left it alone. He changed it, and the next day he changed it again. The fact was that he didn't care enough to even remember which was the "right way", he had simply decided that whichever way I liked it must be wrong. Talk about pushing buttons!

[Cascade]

Blunk, that's so funny!

[downwiththefog]

Hi @Pig wrestler. Great thread you started.

Devaluation for me has taken the form of constant criticism - sometimes to details that are even funny, though we haven't matched the toilet roll orientation    - and often of open hate. 
I lost count of how many times I've been told that her hatred is growing stronger and stronger.
Then there are insults, expression of disgust and debasing talks.
There also is a lot of wearing me down and demands that I fix our relationship. Or how I shall fix it since she says it's impossible, etc ...
She recognises that it's sour, but the fault is 100% with me.

True, throughout the years I have made tons of mistakes in handling a uPD partner. I still do, because my grey rocking works up to a point and sometimes I need to vent my frustrations - and that feeds her greatly.
My mistakes are then magnified and take centre stage in her interaction with me.

My turning point occurred a few years ago when I realised I could no longer wish for her unconditional affection. Attempting to obtain that has allowed her to control me.

There is not a throwing out (yet), actually I must not dare I try to plan and do something for me without telling her first !

I wish you well and peace.

[notrightinthehead]

It took me years to kill my hope that my marriage would ever get better. Then getting better and better at medium chill and setting boundaries calmed our home situation significantly. Which allowed the kids to experience a more stable and safe home and go through puberty and develop their own perspective. At the same time I worked on myself - strengthening my self confidence and self reliance through therapy and exposure to learning situations. I became increasingly useless as enabler or supply for him and more independent. After both kids had left for university I was away from home for months at a time. So I faded out of the marriage. By then we hardly ever talked about anything other than news or weather. When he yelled at me I got up and left without a word. There was no emotional connection from my side anymore. I don"t think I even liked him anymore. He was more like an unpleasant neighbor or colleague to me. Eventually he made the final discard by getting himself on dating sites and picking a new supply. He is on girlfriend number 3 by now. I hope he finally found someone who will make him happy. I don't care anymore.

[zad7242]

My day to day was like living with an unsatisfied, highly disgruntled college roommate who was behaving as if she was trying to make me to move out, but had no friggin' idea who would even cover the other half of the rent if I did.  Pure ridiculousness.

I'm kind of currently feeling this but the strategy my uPD partner is using right now is to tell me that her therapist and friends tell her I should be moving out and fact I won't is proof I am a narcissist. Apparently, they tell her she should leave me as an alternative, she tells them she can't leave because she would rather suffer with me then give up being able to raise her step-children. Wife gets to be a hero for sticking it out to raise my bio children from a previous marriage, and I'm terrible for not leaving. Also, I highly doubt she is seeing a therapist due to lack of payments on our CC etc. I highly believe she is manipulating me to think she has this group of supporters who all think I'm an awful husband.

[downwiththefog]

tonight she has said it very clearly and plainly ... *I* am a narcissist, *I* am a gaslighter, *I* must go and find who can cure/fix me.

This landmark message arrived after a trigger that reminded her of when I filed for divorce, told her after the fact and refused to discuss it on the spot.
When we later started discussing, she convinced me to cancel my divorce and I dragged her to therapy. What a huge mistake, that therapy.
Now that we are in a full devaluation phase - when we are alone and I cannot excuse myself, like in the car, I get a vomit of insults and am reminded that her hatred is growing every day - she finally said it clearly that the narc it's me.

No matter how MC I try to be and how aggressive she is, after these episodes when we're back home and the kids are around, she's relaxed and sweet and I'm grumpy. MC comes with a price.

[MaxedOut]

Downwiththefog, I feel you. I ended up blocking my ubpdstbxw about 3 weeks ago during a barrage of abusive and paranoid texts including stuff like "if you come near me or the house, I'll take you with me."

After several requests to stop texting me/stop texting me like that, I got a string of texts calling me an abuser. And yep, she's called me a narcissist, a sociopath, etc.

But she has also called others close to her similar. And she went off on others in the same dysregulated and paranoid episode. We are no contact now (per her preference and my relieved agreement).

As with your experience, mine was increasingly and more consistent devaluation, insults, and hatred. And yes, that was with me not fighting back, reacting strongly, etc. The projection part can really be galling.

Oh yeah, I have never accused her of gaslighting but that became a frequent accusation towards me. I am not exactly sure what she thinks is gaslighting but effectively anything I didn't 100% agree with or endorse seemed to fall in the basket, no additional ingredients needed. I definitely was not questioning her or characterizing her in any way nor messing with her — any of the necessary components to create gaslighting versus simply not seeing things the same way or remembering things differently,

Often gaslighting accusations were about what she "knew" I felt, thought, believed so me actually saying what was going on internally was "gaslighting" 

There are certainly sad, grieving, angry, etc, emotions but it's so much better (for me at least) on the other side.

[downwiththefog]

Thanks for your support, @MaxedOut.
Unfortunately I made all sort of mistakes in the past when I realized that something was wrong but could not understand the dynamics.
And when I started educating myself, I got my lightbulb moments and tried to fix her, so I explained all that I though was wrong with her behaviors.
Big mistake. But I only get hindsight after the fact ...

Anecdote on hate - last night among all the abuse, she said that because I am so horrible she hopes I will die a horrible death in horrible pain as the right punishment.
This was a new low. I'm ready waiting for the next one!
 

[blunk]

Wow, that is pretty low. Speaking for myself...that was my exact last straw.

After telling my bpdxh that I was so stressed I hadn't been able to eat in days, he said that he was glad and hoped that I died. While I was still reeling from that incident (for which he tried to demand immediate forgiveness) he told me that he hoped I killed myself. I had been 99% in my decision to divorce, but that did it. I broke MC and told him that the fact that he could even use his mouth to form those words towards me said loud and clear that he did not love me, and probably never had.

I am so sorry you are dealing with this level of devaluation and abuse.

[square]

Yup. I had to have a bone marrow biopsy once. There are worse procedures but they aren't a lot of fun, and I was chronically ill so did not feel very emotionally strong about it.

The night before, he was screaming at me, totally out of control. I said quietly, with tears, "Could we please maybe discuss this another time? I've got the biopsy in the morning and I'm scared." He said he hoped I died. That he hoped it went horribly and I died. Stormed oht, slamming the door, leaving me feeling totally broken.

It absolutely effected me. The next morning I had the biopsy but I was emotionally empty and it hurt. I'm normally able to tolerate stuff but I was a total wimp and I felt crushed and alone.

That is the total opposite of love.

[notrightinthehead]

Yes. And it leaves scars . Something like that changes you. It cannot be undone.