What would you do

[Sheppane]

I decided today having not heard from FOO in more than 2 weeks that I would call. Ive realized that no one will contact me for all the various excuses they make so it I want to continue to have a relationship it's sadly on me to keep the contact. It is just the way they are. My dad actually did message me during the week but it was to forward something he saw on social media. On the one hand I can see that as his way of keeping in touch , and I replied to it. But I would never get a message enquiring about me / how I am / what's going on in my life. Does that sound immature and petulant of me? I am 51 so maybe I'm the one bring childish here ? It's just that I have so many friends who have an active relationship with their parents which is reciprocal and does not require one person to do all the work.
I was tempted today to leave it go and see what happens if I let it go further ie wait and see how long it would have to be until someone actually contacted me. But then I'm equally to blame - they could easily say well we haven't heard from you. I don't know whether putting in a boundary that if I don't hear in 2 wks I call them is something that would work for me, and at least in future I would have no regret that I didn't try. Or else maybe it just strengthens that whole thing of well she will call
us every 2 wks - that's all we ever hear from her so obviously she doesn't want us to get in contact with her. What do people think?
I rang Mom to say hello today but it turned out she was in my sibs house for lunch , who was entertaining one of Moms friends. Sib is close to Mom's friend's and this particular friend fawns over her. Moms friend's would never express an interest in visiting me although as I'm not close to them that would be a bit weird anyway!
Mom continued on to tell me all sibs news and how she had been minding my niece for weekend as sib had various social events. That hurts too as it has always been the case that sib ( the GC) has always had lots of help from my parents. I could really do with a break sometimes but have resigned myself to the fact that the same rules don't apply to the SG.
Which made me think of a new term ,a " half SG". I am not always 100% the SG which has always been confusing. I am just the one on the outside, who doesn't really matter as much. If I said this to them it would provoke tears, huge emotion and protest and they would deny. But if actions speak louder than words I would have to say it must be true.

[walking on broken glass]

I am so sorry Sheppane. I know how much it hurts to be the outsider and the scapegoat. It's not childish to want your family to care about you and show interest in your life. But there's no way to make them change habits and ways. In the past I had said many times to my parents, when they complained that they didn't hear from me, 'you can call me too, you know. It's allowed'. Their response was they did not want to bother me 🙄 Perhaps it would be easier for you if you decided that this is how your relationship works, the burden is on you to make contact, and it's ok that it bothers you but you cannot change the dynamic. Perhaps you can see this from a different perspective, as having more freedom? In the sense that you choose when you feel like talking and you make the move but when you don't really want to engage, they won't force you or pressure you. I am not sure if this helps at all.

[Rebel13]

I don't think it's childish. I think it's completely normal to want reciprocal relationships, and to feel hurt/sad/etc. when you realize you don't have them, with the people who are supposed to care about you the most.

I also feel that terrible pain you mention, when my father raves about all the things my brother, the eternal golden child, does. (I figured out he's a Lindsay Gibson "driven" type so he does all kinds of very visible accomplishments, extreme exercising, building/making stuff, etc. I sent them something that I had made for them, and crickets.)

The only thing that helps, in my experience, is acceptance, which is kind of what wobg said. This is how it is. This is how they are. They are probably not going to change. And then I decide how I want to act, based on my knowledge/awareness of the reality. I don't think you can do a wrong thing, unless it's staying in a situation that's hurtful to you and inhibits your ability to live your life fully. Otherwise, you decide what level of contact, sharing, closeness etc. works for you, knowing that you are going to have to be the one to maintain it. And with the awareness that that can change over time, as your interest in maintaining it changes, etc. I haven't found that judging myself for the decisions I've made in the face of the family dynamics has helped me, so I try not to do that. I'm not always successful    -- you know how that goes. I wish you as much peace and calm as you can get, given what you are dealing with.

[Sheppane]

Thank you WOBG. "In the past I had said many times to my parents, when they complained that they didn't hear from me, 'you can call me too, you know. It's allowed'. Their response was they did not want to bother me" ....EXACTLY the same!!!
At times I do just accept this is how it is and completely let them off the hook on it. But I think the more work I have done on myself over the years makes it difficult to accept this is just how it is - because I know they don't take that approach with other people, their friends etc. if they did and felt that they couldn't contact anyone at all because they would be bothering them, then they would have no friends.
My Mom in particular calls my sister a lot so clearly doesn't have the same concerns that she is bothering her if she calls.
I think it is a passive aggressive sort of gaslighting thing too. Because she says " but I never know when is a good time for you " or " but you are always busy" ...trying to make it my fault that she "can't " call me.
I know what you mean about seeing it from that different perspective. What happens me is I wait and wait , hoping someone might call , but it doesn't happen so then I do. I feel tempted sometimes just to let it go and see how long I would have to wait. Maybe I should try that just to flush it out. So that when I get the inevitable " nice to hear your voice " or a text message that says " I haven't heard from you hope everything is ok " that I can point out , maybe for the last time, that she can contact me any time of her choosing.
Sorry I sound like I am going around in circles here. Thank you so much for your reply, it really does help.

Thanks Rebel 13. I'm sorry you have the same. I really like your use of the word "eternal" in there for the GC. Somehow that helps me realize that the GC will always be the one who "matters" more. And I really like what you said about not judging yourself. I do a lot of that! Is this the right thing to do or not, etc. we can only do what we think is right or best, I guess.
I think I have a huge fear of the future when they are no longer here and worry should I have "tried" harder and how painful that might feel.

[walking on broken glass]

I think I have a huge fear of the future when they are no longer here and worry should I have "tried" harder and how painful that might feel.

But you are trying! Really hard. They are the ones that are not trying. Why don't they consider how they will feel when you're gone, having made no effort to get to know you better and be there for you? We always think of our responsibility, our potential guilt. How come they are immune to that, especially since they are the ones who are badly behaved?

I am saying this just to show you that you shouldn't be hard on yourself and be quick to take up all responsibility. Perhaps shifting the responsibility on to them in a fictional dialogue in your head will help you.

I understand the logic of waiting to see how long it will be until they reach out to you before you do, but I am not sure it will be beneficial for your mental health. It might be a useful exercise with healthy individuals, with whom you could have a discussion about the balance in your relationship and they could hear you and take in your point of view. This is not something that can happen with PDs. You will be getting more and more upset and distressed when they won't contact you, and when you have a discussion, your points will be dismissed and invalidated. It will be hurtful and maddening. And yes, of course 'we don't want to bother you' is a stupid excuse, and of course they are capable of picking up the phone to ask how you are doing, but this will not feed their ego, that you are the one that needs them and wants to be in touch. And since this is the problem in the core of their personality, they will never admit to it.

Is it possible to have some kind of exercise, whereby when you feel sad that they are not in touch and you are tempted to write to them, write down your feelings instead and what prompts this impulse? Or write to us here? I have zero psychotherapy background, so this is just my silly idea, but I wonder if you would find something like that beneficial, and would help you take away the focus from you concern about your relationship with your family and shift it on to yourself.

[Sheppane]

WOBG everything here makes so much sense. You are so right, I always blame myself when it is they who do not contact me. If I can just remind myself that yes, I AM trying. And maybe they are not wilfully trying to hurt me - I dont think they are - but even that it doesn't occur to them that always leaving it to me to contact them might hurt a bit says something too. I have children and I can't imagine a time in the future when I would just opt out of contacting them. It's weird because when I see them it's all normal and for the most part, at the moment pleasant. That's probably as good as it gets.
So yes I do have to work on acceptance.
What you said about ego is interesting - how did I never think of it like that ?!? It never occurred to me.
And yes thank you for that suggestion to just journal when I feel sad about it, or to write here. Maybe that's all I need to do at this point. Feel sad and drop the whys and the what ifs and the sense of responsibility abd trying to make sense of it. I think it is mostly the contrast with siblings that hurts. That may just be that they are so enmeshed I have just fallen into the background, again not necessarily a wilful discard. Or maybe I am just making excuses!
Thanks for your kind reply

[walking on broken glass]

I think it is mostly the contrast with siblings that hurts. That may just be that they are so enmeshed I have just fallen into the background, again not necessarily a wilful discard. Or maybe I am just making excuses!

I know exactly how you feel. My mum has always been very enmeshed with my sister. I didn't want her to be enmeshed with me, of course not, as this is very unhealthy, but I still wanted her to care about me as a mum would do, and be interested in my life. When I lived in the same city as my sister, when we were both students, she would come to visit and stayed with my sister most of the days, and maybe a couple of days with me. And even when she was in my place, she would Skype my sister and talk to her. Every time my sister bought me a gift it was the best in the world, when I got her something it was always defective. You get the point. I had accepted that this was the status quo because my mum felt that my sister needed her more and I didn't, but recent events have shown that it goes way deeper than that. I am not trying to suggest that the same thing is true for your family but just bear in mind that things might not be as innocent as they seem to be. When my mum unleashed all her thoughts on me, I was shocked to find out how similar her mindset was to my sister's. Perhaps it's a blessing in disguise that your relationship is kept on this superficial level.

[Sheppane]

WOBG this is so helpful. I am the same that I don't want enmeshment but it stings to feel she doesn't care about me as a mum would do, or show much interest in my life. Most days I have spoken to her recently she has been in sibs house. I get a sinking feeling each time. Petty maybe, but I think it's also just more of the same realization that she never bothered to just call in to me unannounced. Ever. I think once she might have called to say she was in the area but it's so hard to even recall that I might be imagining. And it was always the same as with calls " I didn't want to because you are always so busy and I'm trying to be a good Mom and give you space ". And yet she spends a lot of time telling me how busy my sis is so the same logic clearly doesn't apply. Infact the opposite - she calls in to visit her to see her and mind their kids - so the fact that she feels my sister is busy makes her visit her more, not less!!

What you said about accepting the status quo and believing that what's going on here is that your mum feels your sister needs her more - I can really relate to that. It is exactly how it has always been and sis is enabled and fawned over ( in a way which has also not been healthy for her). But wow what you said about there possibly being something deeper .....that has really made me think. My Mom raged at me a few years ago in response to me setting a healthy boundary. It lasted for about 30 mins and I felt so ill afterwards. I have written down somewhere all the things she said but basically I am a huge disappointment / a mean and less than daughter/ sister / aunt ( she even brought my nieces and nephews into it)/ never do enough for anyone including my "aging" parents (they are lucky to be very fit and healthy and by no means inform)/ can't talk to her friends about me because it is so painful for her to even talk about me to others etc etc etc. This is all in the past now, she semi apologized at the time (said she was stressed!) but didn't really row back on anything she said or express any regret about how she could say such hurtful or untruthful things. Maybe that's because she believed them, just wished she hadn't said them. So I think what you say is correct - this may not be far below the surface. I keep things pleasant and superficial so we never go there anymore. But I think I minor provocation would be sure to unleash the truth.

Sometimes I think that would be better, to "know" for sure, before she leaves this life. It's a strange place to live in this weird world of superficiality with sometimes occasional flashes of closeness, never to really know.

Apologies, this was a long reply!

[walking on broken glass]

Hi Sheppane!
I am really sorry your mum had a similar explosion. It is awful and nothing they say afterwards can rectify or fix it. (She was stressed? Ha!) I know what you mean about how difficult and unsafe it feels not to know where exactly you stand with PD family, and ideally you would like the clarity, even if it was unpleasant. But I don't think they are capable of giving us that. In fact, at the core of their disorder is probably this emptiness and this lack of a secure core. Like a black hole that swallows everything or a mirror that reflects things. No stability, no awareness, no self reflection. Your mum is probably both the pleasant woman that chit chats with you and the rageful, bitter one that accuses you of all sorts of things. I don't think they are able to think of other people in a nuanced, rounded, empathetic way. They just alternate based on their emotions. This is what is so difficult to accept. I have been ruminating as well about my mum's outburst: is this what she really thinks of me? When in the past she was nice to me, did she really mean it? Was it all a lie? Like, what is her 'real' opinion of me? How can all these disparate signs be reconciled? They can't. When she yelled at me, she really did think I was that awful. After she calmed down, she probably didn't give it much though and moved on. It must be puzzling for her that I am still dwelling on it and that my behaviour towards her has changed. But I am healthy, she is not. In a way, we can view this inability to comprehend them as a blessing for being the emotionally mature, healthy ones.
Sending you hugs and understanding 

[Sheppane]

Thanks WOBG. It is the real tragedy underneath it all, isn't it? The fact that as you say there is an emptiness and lack of a secure core at the centre of it all. I used to find that also a bit confusing because it led me to feel sorry for them , and to in part at least excuse them for their behaviour. But through my own healing I think I have come to see that it is possible for it to be true that they have this core emptiness, and have compassion for that, but to also have compassion for ourselves who suffer as a result. In other words both can be true.

[mary_poppins]

Hi Sheppane.

I get it, you want them to care and reach out. I can offer my perspective. When I was in VLC which transitioned into 4 happy years of no contact, I had health problems and many, many money problems. I was homeless at one point, had to suffer through upper respiratory infections, job loss, relaitonship loss and you name it. I even moved countries. But even if I told them all of that (in the past, I used to tell them about my problems especially about job loss or other types of losses), they would not be able to mumble even an empathetic word. It is scary that they actually don't even try to hide their lack of empathy, it's as if they're proud of it or it does not affect them.

(I am sure that my parents think the way they do things is the right way and if people get mad at them for their shitty behavior, it is not their problem-it's theirs. That other person has a bad temper to react so angrily to their hurtful acts. If they were stronger, they would not be affected by them. Actually this is how my mother justifies her abuses to her sister whom she is now in no contact-her sister went no contact with her due to the abuse).

So, rather than experiencing their lack of empathy and careless attitude, I prefer to say nothing, I mean ZERO things about my problems. All they know is that I don't have problems, everything in my life is perfect (except the lack of job) and my friends, my relationships, everything in my life is going tremendously well.

Don't say anything unless you want to grieve how ugly narcissists can get when you need the most support. I rather receive zero support than be criticized or treated terribly by cruel people. Loneliness and silence are so much better companions.

[Rebel13]

I think I have a huge fear of the future when they are no longer here and worry should I have "tried" harder and how painful that might feel.

I can so relate to this! I struggle with that one too. Since I went NC with my mom, though, I have realized that, when I think forward to that time, there really isn't anything else I can/could do. I've tried my best to be the daughter she wanted, and always fell short. Because her expectations are unreasonable, and her behavior is irrational and emotion-based, as wobg describes so clearly above. There's nothing to work with, there.

I'm hoping that I'll come to the same conclusions when/if I have those thoughts/feelings about other family members when they pass -- that I did my best. I came across something recently that's kind of relevant:

See the big picture

Whatever the pain of another person happens to be – perhaps due to illness, family quarrel, poverty, aging, depression, stressful job, worry about a child, disappointment in love, or the devastation of war – it is made up of many parts (emotions, sensations, thoughts, etc.) that are the result of a vast web of causes.

When you recognize this truth, it is strangely calming. You still care about the other person and you do what you can, but you see that this pain and its causes are a tiny part of a larger and mostly impersonal whole.

This recognition of the whole – the whole of one person's life, of the past emerging into the present, of the natural world, of physical reality altogether – tends to settle down the neural networks in the top middle of the brain that ruminate and agitate. It also tends to activate and strengthen neural networks on the sides of the brain that support spacious mindfulness, staying in the present, taking life less personally – and a growing sense of peace.


That's from here:  https://rickhanson.com/be-peace-pain-others/ and it made me feel a little better, a little more open, about this sort of thing.

[SpiritedChange]

Hi Sheppane,

I can so relate to feeling like a half scapegoat and deliberately excluded from my FOO after I started setting boundaries with my mother. I now realize that this kind of behavior is actually a form of emotional abuse.

To answer your question, what I would do is walk away. After making excuses for them for the last five years I have finally decided that I am going to walk away. As of yesterday I have gone NC with everyone except my "half-safe" father (divorced from my mother, and lately we only have contact every few months since I decided to stop initiating) and I have blocked them all.