What would you do

[Sheppane]

I don't know if anyone else experiences this. I have very little contact from FOO now - what I mean by that is the only contact I have is the contact I make. In the past things have been difficult but we seem to have reached a level of calm now. Interactions are mostly fine but it still is very difficult for me that no one ever contacts me. I have explicitly stated I like to have contact but I get " oh but you might be busy , oh but you might not want ME calling " etc etc . A mixture of low self esteem at reaching out and passive aggressiveness. Anyway my question is this. I have a lot going on at the moment. Some health scares and other major stressful events in past few days As I don't hear from FOO they of course do not know any of this.

I feel lonely and unsupported. Because usually people pick up on tthese things due to casual contact
 etc. So because no one ever valls they don't know. I find myself
thinking will I call? To let them know? Or wait for them to contact
and tell them then what has been going on ? It seems strange to need
 to issue a press release but this has happened before. I am a bit fed up of this dynamic. I think mainly because it highlights that I don't matter. Big things happen in my life and the only way FOO know about it is if I announce it, as no one contacts me anyway. Id love to know am I the only one with this dynamic?

[walking on broken glass]

Hi Sheppane,
I am so sorry you are dealing with this. No, you are not the only one! I have been scapegoated by my family so I know this feeling of loneliness and isolation very well. At the same time, I don't feel like sharing personal stuff with them because they cannot offer me any support (quite the opposite actually). I understand the need and the craving for contact, but are you sure that, if you share what has been going on in your life lately, you will get the support you need? Isn't it better to confide in good friends who will be more empathetic?

It might be that my recent experiences with my family are colouring my views here and your situation may be different. But think whether what you desire and miss is the idea of a supportive family that doesn't exist in reality. Because, if they were caring and empathetic, they would be in your life and they would know about significant life events.
Sending lots of hugs. Remember that there are people who care about you and that you are not alone.

[Rebel13]

Hi Sheppane,

I had cancer and major surgery in 2023 and shared your feelings! I'm also very low contact with my family, mainly when initiated by me. I was really careful which of them I shared information with, and when, and had low expectations so I wasn't disappointed. However, I WAS pretty disappointed in the reactions of almost everyone that I considered a friend! I joined a support group in early 2024 and a lot of people in the group had similar experiences. The facilitator, an oncology social worker, said that she heard this kind of thing a lot, and she thinks it is because of the relentless positivity and unwillingness to show weakness/vulnerability that characterizes the culture at least in the US. People either don't know how to be supportive and helpful, or they don't want to think about bad things because they're afraid it could happen to them. (Or they're self-absorbed, insight added by me!) My takeaway was that health problems are super isolating and we are lucky (which I was) if we have a great partner and/or one or two kind and helpful friends who can do the practical things that I remember being more prevalent during crises when I was a kid -- driving people to appointments, bringing food over, chatting to distract, listening to support. The world has changed, I guess!

[Call Me Cordelia]

The world may have changed but the good souls are still here! I have built up the kind of supportive community you are talking about, Rebel. Certainly not on my own, but just to say it does exist! One of our neighbors has needed those things in the last week due to their baby being born with a health condition requiring a NICU stay. Neighbors have given rides, childcare, brought meals. This is normal where I live, but we have made a conscious decision that we were going to be part of a community, build up trust, and treat our neighbors like family. And they have been more a family to me than my FOO ever felt like. I can't and wouldn't do that for just anyone though, or accept that kind of help from just anybody either. The trust has to be built over many more mundane interactions. That social worker is right, we are an isolated culture, and that foundation is something that has to be built intentionally most of the time. For those of us who come from PD families, that goes double in my opinion. It's so much dang work, and it shouldn't be that hard, but at least it's enjoyable most of the time.

I'm sorry you are suffering right now! I pray that you have peace and good health in the new year, and you find the people you can build these relationships with. It's totally a gift but it's also something that has to be continually invested in. I spent so much time trying to cultivate the relationship with my family and make it something it just couldn't be, no matter what I did.

I too relate to your feelings and experience of being in a one-sided and completely unsupportive relationship with my family members. They very rarely initiated contact, shut down nearly every tiny request I dared to make, and yet felt entitled to know all of my personal information, lest they bear the shame of hearing something about me secondhand! It was all so life-depleting. I didn't have the capacity for the life-giving relationships when I was so worn down by my FOO. I really grew so much just as a person after I went NC and dealt with the immediate aftermath, because I finally had the space in my life to not constantly be trying to fill their bottomless pit of being miserable and finding fault with me, trying to twist myself in a way that would finally gain their approval! My NC came out of their complete lack of empathy and care when I had a major health issue myself. I called a timeout from them because they were starting drama I just had zero bandwidth for and it was making me sicker. They went completely bananas because HOW DARE I and ended up trying to get me labeled an unfit mother. So... yeah dealing with PD family while sick can be the worst.

So I guess the choice of telling them or not depends on what you are hoping to achieve by doing so. It's completely up to you. It's fair to say that people won't know what your needs are if you don't communicate them. We can ask for help. We may or may not get what we want, but we do all need support. I'm glad you reached out here.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I'm coming back because I'm not satisfied with my reply. I think I maybe went a little bit toxic positivity on you and I'm sorry. Like it was the worst but I came through and if I can do it so can you! Heart heart heart good vibes!

I do so want to validate everything you wrote about your FOO's lack of interest being harder to bear when wow you do have big news. And big needs. And you feel that you don't matter to them. It's so lonely, and so wrong. You really are worthy of love, and it's such a shame they are missing out on the gift that you are.

[bloomie]

Sheppane - I am so sorry that you are going through health scares and major stressors in your life. And I am thankful you trusted us and reached out for support as all of this is so isolating in general, but add into the mix the lack of everyday communication and general support from your family... that is a lot!

Sadly, you are not alone in having family not healthy enough to be there for you. To be trustworthy and walk with you during this steep part of the path. It hurts and there is true grief in the realizations that come at times like this. I hope you are able to make space for this in your life when you are ready and able.

I have learned that the lack of even a reasonable level of reciprocity and interest in the relationship, our wellbeing, what is going on in our life, to respond to our stated needs and preferences for another to initiate even a phone call or simple text message, is emotionally neglectful and highly damaging to those of us on the receiving end of it.

Right now, it would seem that the first priority is protecting your well being, health and peace. If there are one or two people in your life who are actively supporting you - those are your people. I believe that from the ashes of these times we can slowly build genuine, trustworthy, community and support for ourselves and to be that for others. It takes time and energy you may not have right now, but when you are ready, you will continue to build for yourself on solid ground with healthy people.

In the meantime, we are here and we are listening and we care! Keep coming back!

[Sheppane]

Thank you all so much for your responses. WOBG when you said this "But think whether what you desire and miss is the idea of a supportive family that doesn't exist in reality. Because, if they were caring and empathetic, they would be in your life and they would know about significant life events." That felt very true. Maybe I just needed someone else to valid ate that feeling. Rebel13 I'm sorry to hear of your ill health and your similar experience. That's an interesting comment made by the social worker and it rings very true in our world I think. 
Call me cordelia no apology needed! I found your post /reply super helpful. I'm sorry you have gone through this also and it makes me feel less alone. Also what you said about what do I expect to get out of it. Again maybe what I am realising is I am just sad about it. Because it highlights the lack of involvement in my life and the necessity for me to make announcements to people who themselves are too emotionally immature to reach out. It probably isn't that they don't care and as you say how can they know if no one tells them. But this has happened before and I have got supportive messages by text but never so much as a phone call which I suppose feels like what people who really care would do.thank you for your kind words and reminder that I am worthy of love. At times I beat myself up for being too "precious" about this as I am a grown adult now! But also I can have a tendency to interpret their actions, or similar with friends as evidence that I don't matter to people. So thank you for your kindness.
Thank you Bloomie for hearing me also..yes it is grief I guess. I find it terribly confusing as it is not like I am experiencing upfront toxicity. Even before the holidays I was thinking to myself it is clear that my FOO will never reach out to me by calling or arranging to meet yet when I do arrange it myself and meet them they are delighted. So it may be a lack of self esteem issue on their part and maybe what's for me is to figure out if I am ok with that , always being the one to initiate. I guess it stings because I know mom calls my siblings. But yet when we meet all is well. In other words it gets to one or two weeks of no contact ..I wait and hope I might hear something ....nothing and then I contact. If I held out it puts me under strain. But it would be interesting to see how long it would last. It is sad to look back at my phone and realise none of my FOO called me for a chat in 2024. They do text (in response to me) but that's almost worse sometimes as texting can be ambiguous and it's never clear when the conversation is over. Anyway I guess this is simply how it is. Tha nks all for your support   

[Rebel13]

Again maybe what I am realising is I am just sad about it. Because it highlights the lack of involvement in my life and the necessity for me to make announcements to people who themselves are too emotionally immature to reach out.

Yes, this! Sometimes there are the feelings, right? Certainly, for myself, I've realized there's a pretty big well of sadness and grief about so many things relating to my family and upbringing. It feels like a bottomless pit sometimes, like if I start letting those feelings through, I'll never stop crying. But I'm learning that if I acknowledge to myself "I am just sad about it" and learn some ways to comfort myself, the feeling doesn't really go on forever. It passes, and I don't necessarily have to do anything about it besides provide comfort and compassion for myself. (Still acquiring healthy methods as opposed to the self medicating I did earlier in life!)

Hang in there. Wishing you all you need to cope with your difficulties and stresses right now.

[Sheppane]

Thank you Rebel13. I was very upset last night and couldnt sleep. Felt a mix of anger / sadness as I went to bed, some arguments with partner, general irritability etc. I couldn't really figure what was wrong only that I felt a feeling of " I don't matter". Not just to FOO but to friends aswell. Maybe this time of year brings out the loneliness. Or if I do matter that I don't matter " enough". My friendships have changed as time has passed this is normal I know but I now have one or two close friends only. A lot of acquaintances and people who would probably become closer friends had we all the time to invest in those relationships. Life is busy for everyone I know. But reading your post made me realise that maybe it is grief. That this feeling of I don't matter enough comes from the lack of reciprocity from FOO. I decided to reach out and tell them what's been going on and while I got a supportive message back from mom, the content of which you couldn't "fault" I heard nothing from my father. Sometimes Mom doesn't pass on information (a control thing I guess) but equally he doesn't bother to make contact. As I type I can feel myself getting tangled in all of this again.thanj you for your reply Rebel that helped enormously. 

[walking on broken glass]

I am so sorry Sheppane. I hope today you feel a little better. It's hard to avoid reminiscing and taking stock this time of the year. You know, every year this time around, when I listen to the Lenon song 'And so this is Christmas and what have you done?' it always makes me sad. I think 'what have I done?' and it is never enough. So I get how easy it is to descend to a pessimistic way of thinking, especially if your year has been particularly tumultuous. Friendships do change over the years. I also have one or two close friends on whom I know I can count and who have always been there for me, as I have been for them. I don't think I could handle more close friends to be honest! The older I get, the more strict I am with my needs and the amount of energy I put in a friendship. I prefer to be in close contact with people with whom I see eye to eye and get me, rather than having a lot of 'fair weather' friends.
Unexpectedly in the past year I have made two more good friends where I live, which I did not even think possible in my age!

So yeah relationships change but it is so important you have people in your life that care about you - be it friends, partners or strangers on the internet ☺️

[walking on broken glass]

One more thing: I think those of us who come from PD families, have a more urgent need to form stable relationships with people outside our families. We need people to support and validate us, make us feel valued, heard, and loved. I know that in the past this craving has led me trust people more quickly than I should, put in more energy than I received and form unequal relationships and friendships. This is why I now see as a mark of pride having few but well chosen friends who withstood the test of time. Maybe then having one or two close friends is a sign of healthy choices and good judgement, something to rejoice about and not lament.

[treesgrowslowly]

 

I wish it was easier for us adult children of PD's / narcissistic types, to find the stable, reciprocal friendships that we all want and need.

There's a lot going on when someone in our life is taking time out, regularly, to invest in a genuine check-in with us.

Sheppane, I am also TOTALLY tired of this dynamic where people only text if I text them first. Like what the heck. Like you said, its a combination of low self esteem and passive aggression on their part. Blaming us for their inability to check-in with us.

Only you can know if some of the people in your FOO can offer something that actually "fills your bucket". If they can't be there for you emotionally, would a meet-up to see a movie or go to a sporting event together fill your bucket? Only you can know that. You might have kind people in your FOO who can watch a movie with you, but can't have a satisfying heart to heart conversation with you. Only you can know if you'd feel better if you engaged with them on their level, which is what you'd be doing if you suggest an activity that is their speed and doesn't require them to connect with you in a deeper way.

I don't really know what to do with all the people in our life who don't reach out until we text / call / email them. I would love to shake these people to wake them up, but I don't. But I want to! It's so frustrating when you've got so many people in your life who are like this! Just know that it's them, not you. It is ok to realize that someone in our life, is showing up the way that they can, and I do think that this time of year, reveals that our parents didn't show up enough for us. Which brings healthy but painful grief. I feel it too at this time of year.

It's like when I order food for delivery, the delivery driver puts the food on the doorstep and leaves. Which is the protocol for their job. But if that was a close friend, they'd bring in the food, hand it to me, give me a hug, ask how I"m doing that day, and then I'd invite them in and share the meal with them.

People in our lives who show up, but they don't show up in the way that we needed them to, it feels like when I go get the food from the doorstep. The delivery is complete, nothing else is going to happen between me and the person who delivered my food. They showed up to deliver the food, not to ask how my week has been.

It's hard when we have parents who show up, but the showing up didn't go far enough, to include all of that concern and love that we yearn for at this time of year. It would be completely crackers of me to expect a delivery person to show up the way a close friend could. But for those of us with PD parents, our parents show up and deliver something and leave, and we're like wait what? You're my parent, you're supposed to do a lot more than this. You're not supposed to just "leave the food on the doorstep and leave". But sometimes that is all our parents can do.

You do matter - and this time of year is incredibly hard for some of us. In January, for various reasons, it gets a bit easier. I always feel better when I can put December behind me for another year. Every December, I lose my footing and I am not surprised as to why. This time of year there's nothing but messages that don't apply to my life. They still have not written a holiday song for the survivors of parental narc abuse. Where is THAT song??

You matter here Sheppane. You've made so many posts over the year that I've appreciated reading and thinking about.

Trees

[Sheppane]

Thank you for your kind replies it was so helpful to read them.
I am still struggling but I really appreciate your words. WOBG that is very true what you said about us needing firm friendships outside of family. I think I have always felt like an outsider, or 2nd rank to everyone, even friends. Frankly as I get older it doesn't upset me losing friendships that no longer serve me but I suppose it perhaps puts more pressure on the few remaining, or at least it feels that way! I never really thought about having few friends being a sign of good judgement so thank you for pointing that out!

Trees I think you made me realise that actually I find this time of year much more difficult than I had appreciated. I always prefer new year to Christmas, I have always thought this was because it was that feeling of a new beginning, but maybe infact it is also because Christmas is then behind me. I enjoy the lead into Christmas and the day itself but I think that period in-between can be challenging for me as you said it is easy to lose ones footing. I am going to try and be gentle with myself about that.
The analogy of the delivery driver is very accurate and a great way to describe that scenario. I am also trying to be kind to my FOO in the sense that while I may feel loss and disappointment maybe the way they show up for me is the best they can do. I don't know. That's always a tricky one as it's always possible to compare how they can show up for others, but then again I suppose family relationships are particularly complex in that regard. Maybe it is easier for them to show up to people to whom they are less emotionally connected to, for various reasons.
Thank you this is a wonderful community and I really appreciate your comments. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Watching FOO show up for others in the way we wish they would for us majorly hurts. In my case, I believe my mother in particular used this for two reason: 1) Good old supply in building up her false self to the public audience. 2) Deliberately as a scapegoating and abuse tactic. She knew exactly what she was doing when she said she couldn't come visit me and then in the next breath told me how GRATEFUL these other people were to her for taking their child the same age as my son under her wing and how they would be lost without her when he changed schools.  There were times I felt distinctly that she was daring me to call her out on the difference.

I didn't. I didn't understand it, but I knew instinctively there would be no satisfactory resolution there. I knew at minimum I was being punished for not living in my hometown and they resented driving to us. That was in the open. Now I know it was way deeper. They were ashamed to admit to the audience that I chose not to live near them after telling everyone I was coming "home." You just don't get the same level of accolades and talked about publicly for just being a decent grandmother. We were in fact entitled to some level of attention from her, it cost her something, I was already painted all bad, AND I had built my own life such that I didn't cross paths ever with anyone she cared about impressing. The best supply option available from me was in trying to hurt me. All of that to say, it's completely a reflection of their disorder, nothing to do with us, and you know that. They neglected us and made it our job to validate them. Sadly we're left in adulthood playing catchup from this sad lack and of course we question our "enoughness," since we were tasked from birth with filling a bottomless pit and never being filled ourselves. It's such a core wound that it's going to come up again and again, like an old broken bone that aches when the weather changes. Or Christmas comes around again.

[walking on broken glass]

All of that to say, it's completely a reflection of their disorder, nothing to do with us, and you know that. They neglected us and made it our job to validate them. Sadly we're left in adulthood playing catchup from this sad lack and of course we question our "enoughness," since we were tasked from birth with filling a bottomless pit and never being filled ourselves. It's such a core wound that it's going to come up again and again, like an old broken bone that aches when the weather changes. Or Christmas comes around again.

So sad but so eloquently put.

[treesgrowslowly]

Yep. So well put Call me Cordelia.

I realized there's a whole other level of recovery when we realize 1) these limitations were always there - my parent was always this immature / unskilled / disordered...

2) their disorder / immaturity altered the trajectory of my life.

People don't need to be emotionally mature to have children. Sometimes, a deeply immature person, goes and has a child. And then that child grows up, and has empathy and insight and energy and compassion and the capacity to play, and the child looks at the parent and thinks - where are you? Why is there no there there? But that parent was stunted in their development, for whatever reason, but they still procreated, and the child grew up, and the parent didn't grow up.

Then we get to Christmas time and I feel like it is a time of year where the mess of emotionally immature people having kids - the chickens come home to roost. We emotionally mature adult children can be puzzled as to why the things that are 'easy' for us, are not easy for our own parents. But I do not believe that empathy is a skill. It's a facet of temperament. Emotionally immature people, no matter what age, they don't take the focus off of themselves, and they use others to regulate. This creates loneliness for the people they are using. More and more, I realize that my loneliness, is a good indicator of how emotionally absent / immature the other person is that I'm trying to engage with. The more absent they are, this registers as 'I'm lonely' for me.

I had a therapist once tell me - the absence you see when you look at how little they reach out with you, that's the same absence they have with themselves. If they had a meaningful (non-narcissistic) relationship with themselves, they could also have that with others, including their adult children.

Trees

[TimetoHeal]

hi, Shepanne,

I hope you are feeling better.  I am late to the conversation, but it jumped out at me because I deal with the same thing with my FOO.  My mother only ever texts me to rant and complain about her latest aches, pains, misery, etc.  She never asks how I am.  I literally could be anybody, or even a blank screen.  She may ask a perfunctory question about how her grandchildren are.  She will NEVER call me, but you'd better bet she is counting the days until I call her, because as soon as I do, I get a guilt trip message about how long it has been.  It's awful.  Last year, I had a major health scare and spent a few days in the hospital.  My BFF who was at the hospital with me called my mother to let her know what was going on. Mother fell apart and made it all about her.  Why was this happening to her?  That sort of thing.  She never came to see me.  My brother lives in another state and I see/hear from him once a year if I'm lucky.

My social circle is super small now too.  I have 3 really close friends who I trust and who support me.  I know having 3 is actually being very blessed!  I used to have more, but found out many of them were narcs themselves, so they had to go.  My exH was a narc, so there is no supportive partner in my life.

Anyway, all this to say, you are DEFINITELY not alone.  I'm so thankful for these forums, and thankful that you shared here.  I hope you get lots of support from your friends and partner and the best treatment available from your doctors. 

[Rebel13]

Last year, I had a major health scare and spent a few days in the hospital.  My BFF who was at the hospital with me called my mother to let her know what was going on. Mother fell apart and made it all about her.

Yes, this is exactly why I didn't tell my mother about my health problems/surgery in 2023.

My brother lives in another state and I see/hear from him once a year if I'm lucky.

Yep, me too! Sometimes the similarities -- in what I always thought was my particular, peculiar situation  -- are so strange, and yet strangely reassuring. It's not just me.

[TimetoHeal]

Yes, this is exactly why I didn't tell my mother about my health problems/surgery in 2023.





Yep, me too! Sometimes the similarities -- in what I always thought was my particular, peculiar situation  -- are so strange, and yet strangely reassuring. It's not just me.

Isn't it crazy?  Like you said, strange, but strangely reassuring. I've decided I won't share any health/personal information with my mother again even if I am on fire.  LOL

[Sheppane]

Thank you all so much for your replies. I've had a lot going on and haven't been able to log on much lately.
Call me cordelia I love that analogy of the aching bone. It is so true as sometimes I think things are"better" and then this old wound comes up again .like a painful bone it is a case of learning to live with it I guess. As when it is "better" I feel a bit weird and I forget. And being truthful it always feels strange when that old wound calms down a bit. Unsettling even. The familiarity maybe. And when it's back again I feel more like this is what I'm used to! Which is strange as you would think I would not want that wound to be paining me anymore. But I guess there are other emotions mixed in there too which maybe make it hard to let go of completely?
Trees thank you for your reply and yes that idea of using others to regulate creating loneliness - it makes perfect sense when you say it like that. Funny enough things are quite calm in my FOO at the moment, drama free. But I feel more lonely. Maybe that's why. I have more contact with them when I am "needed" but as I am not needed as much right now no one feels the need to reach out.Time to heal and Rebel 13 thank you - isn't that so true about needing to make it all about them. That has been my experience exactly. So grateful for all your support