Caretaker role/Help denial

[zad7242]

Wasn't sure what to call this topic, but this is about caretaking but also about uPDw seeming to pile responsibilities on herself to always make sure she is the one more exhausted in the relationship, but then not accept concrete help.

For starters, my uPDw, does the lion's share of household shores and child rearing. She is wonderful at this, openly accepts these responsibilities despite the stress, which include homeschooling (her decision which I support), ungrateful children, monotonous chores etc. I do help out, I think substantially with these things, when I am not working or studying for the bar exam, which I currently am. For example, I take care of our 8-month-old baby and 2-year-old during the nights, which includes sometimes multiple feedings throughout the night, so my wife does not need to be woken up etc. She sleeps on a different level of the house as me and the babies.  I know I need to do better in terms of stepping up with handling parenting issues, cooking more meals for the family etc. I own that and know I can and need to do better.

However, my wife, despite the stress levels of just our ordinary activities, takes on extra responsibilities that are wonderful but make it harder for us keep our heads emotionally above water. For example, she went from not wanting our children to attend Sunday religious education to insisting she teach it, and also making sure she supplies our small church with baked goods every week. I, of course look selfish if I'm like "don't we have enough going on?" These additional responsibilities are great for her in terms of social connection, etc, but its either all or nothing with her it seems like sometimes.

It's just part of a general theme of my wife always needing to be more tired than I am. I know she has every reason to be exhausted on a daily basis, but it almost feels like I'm being one-upped in tiredness or physical pain on a daily basis. Of course, I can't vent to her, which is why I'm doing it here, lol. Just wondering if others see this pattern of "I'm so exhausted and you don't help, but let's do more and more, or if you do help, you aren't helping in the right way." This pattern can lead to both people in the relationship drowning and I don't know how to get out of it.........

[zad7242]

I would like to clarify and add that I wouldn't want me wife to quit any of the specific activities she has committed herself and us to as I realize how important it is to her to have a purpose beyond "keeping our children alive". It's just hard to find a balance right now. thanks

[square]

Martyrdom is a good feed for women especially since there are social expectations on us to do that sort of work. There's the double reward of status for being a good mother, wife, housekeeper, neighbor, and church member, plus the victimhood reward for so much sacrifice.

Your job is to disentangle yourself from her framework and to make your own choices. You want to be a good father, husband, household member, neighbor, and church member. But what that entails does NOT need to match your wife's framework - especially with the latter two roles.

For that to happen, the real work is letting her make her own choices and letting her think whatever she thinks.

She wants to bake for the upcoming church gathering? Sure. You don't need to accept the burden of her feelings about it. She feels harried? Sorry to hear it, hon. You don't do anything to help? Sorry she feels that way.

As you said, she makes choices about what she will commit to. But she doesn't get to pick for you. You're working and studying for the bar and being an involved parent? You've stepped to the plate. And you guys should be rotating nights instead of you taking them all unless it's something that you really can take on better than her (like if you fall back asleep easily and she absolutely cannot).

But overall this is about movig away from the idea that she gets to decide for you what loads you will take on. By the way, does she step to the plate for you, such as providing you quiet and uninterrupted study time?

[Poison Ivy]

 

[zad7242]

Thank you, square. That all makes sense.


Speaking to two of your points I'll say, no she can't go back to sleep if woken up by the baby and she even says she doesn't really get much better sleep without helping with the babies overnight anyway. However, maybe she could sleep better if she actually got some specific treatment for her anxiety, PTSD etc. Again, I think it's part of the martyrdom.

She does step up and allow me to get my study time in for the most part which I appreciate. I do hear after the fact how hard it was for her to do it though.

[square]

Speaking to two of your points I'll say, no she can't go back to sleep if woken up by the baby and she even says she doesn't really get much better sleep without helping with the babies overnight anyway.

If it's working ok for you, fine. If it's impacting your sleep, next time she says it makes no difference, tell her that in that case it makes sense to rotate since it's hard on you and doesn't help her anyway.

Oh, I'm hearing you, I know she won't just say "ok honey that makes sense." She can think what she wants. You can own this choice with a clear conscience. You can look in the mirror and feel absolutely fine that you split the night shifts with your wife.

However, maybe she could sleep better if she actually got some specific treatment for her anxiety, PTSD etc. Again, I think it's part of the martyrdom.

You both need sleep. You should not do 100% of the sacrifice just because she has decided she won't do anything to improve things. You can't make her improve her sleep, but you can improve yours by splitting the shifts in some way.

She does step up and allow me to get my study time in for the most part which I appreciate. I do hear after the fact how hard it was for her to do it though.

Great to hear she steps up!

You can decline to carry the burden of her sacrifice. Her sacrifice is very loud and public.

What about your sacrifice? This is not her giving you time to rest in the hammock during a lovely breeze. She is parenting her own children and doing her own work while you are working on studying and securing a good future.

She's being silly.

You can smile to yourself inside and shake your head and privately pity her. And feel absolutely fine while you do YOUR sacrifice for the family and study law conscientiously and well.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Hey, Zad, I don't think bringing up your view of things sounds selfish at all.  The fear of being judged selfish can make life so much harder.  And having people call you (or imply that you're) selfish is used by some as major manipulation.  It sounds like you know you're not selfish, that you care about doing your part.  Sometimes we have to let go of what someone else thinks and be content with our own judgement.

I totally agree with what Square has been saying.  In fact, Square, I want you in my corner as my coach if I'm ever in this situation. 

[SeaBreeze]

My ex-H often pulled the martyr act, so I've experienced the PD male version of this. The uNPDd co-morbid with uOCPD version at that. Workaholic to the point he made himself sick, came home stressed, angry and yelling at the very family he was working so hard to support. He was great about helping with housework, yet did so in a demonstrative performance, either reminding me out loud how lucky I was to have him while criticizing my own housekeeping abilities. Example: loudly washing the one single pot I left to soak in the sink while I was cooking, while also complaining that he did all the dishes. Or furiously wiping down a counter after I had literally just cleaned it and complaining he was the only person who cared how our house looked. Etc etc etc.  Passive-aggressively refused help because only he knew how to do things right and/or he didn't need, want or ask for help and/or we were expected to read his mind and/or should have done it right ourselves in the first place. On one hand, we had nice things thanks to ex's job and our house was super clean. On the other hand, it was exhausting, demoralizing, and frustrating for our family. Like we weren't allowed to enjoy any of it because ex-H "did it all, for us..."

[SeaBreeze]

To add, I agree with Square. Once I started using MC, no JADE, setting boundaries, and just neutrally detached myself from H's frenzy, I not only felt alot less stressed (or offended), but observing him really brought his PD paired with mental illness into focus. Or as my eldest DS once said, "Hey, the dishes got done, right? Let him!"

[zad7242]

Thank you for the encouragement and great advice!

This could probably be a separate thread but I am curious about the what expectations should be regarding use of tools like noJADE, MC. For example, do any of you think that the use of such tools made the difference between being able to stay with your PD partner or not, or dare I say even have a relatively happy marriage?

In simpler terms, how much more tolerable is the relationship once I start doing what I need to over what I have control over? I am pretty early in my marriage (3.5 years) and I wonder what expectations I should have. Are these tools capable of transforming a toxic relationship or are they more survival tools for life or until the non-PD partner leaves?
 

[square]

For me, MC and noJADE made it possible for me to tolerate the situation for longer and with less damage.

In my particular case, there was a reduction in the very worst meltdowns because  I did my part to avoid them (including avoiding being in such situations in the first place where possible, and exiting when things got to a certain point).

Even when I was being told cruel things or blamed, it helped me to stay centered and keep my feelings more even. Not perfectly, of course, but whereas I used to routinely feel like I'd been hit by an emotional truck, it became more like tripping and getting a tiny scrape, which definitely would ruin 10 minutes of my day, but still something that could be moved on from.

It helped me to feel more confident in my self and perceptions. Whereas I am not proud of all my previous reactions, such as trying to communicate how much he was hurting me by yelling or crying, I felt like I had brought my best self to the marriage and done every bit of my part to improve things. As it happened, my H did improve some things, and I believe I helped by providing some space to do it, and I credit him for making the choice and effort for his part.

It did not turn out to be enough for me. But MC and noJADE further gave me some space to heal a little bit, enough to get me to pull myself together and make a centered choice to leave.

I have to admit, there is one drawback, but in fact the drawback isn't really due to MC and noJADE.

The drawback is that it serves to disconnect you. This protects you because the connection is harming you, as if you were touching a hot stove or a live wire. For you to not be hurt, or as hurt, by a toxic spouse requires that you detach your feelings. And there's no way to protect your heart from harm while also keeping it wide open in trust and true intimacy.

I could not trust my husband with my thoughts and stresses and fears and needs. If I shared myself, I ran the risk of him putting more stress on me, yelling at me, blaming me, belittling me, or using the information to strike at me later. I had to rely on myself, but ultimately that's not a partnership. He did notice and he did not like it, but I would continue to be reinforced toward pulling away more as I still found myself regretting the increasingly smaller and less frequent parts of myself I shared.

But the thing to remember is, I didn't cause that with MC and noJADE. He simply revealed himself. No longer was this an "us" needing to work on our marriage thing, he was still choosing toxicity despite the fewer opportunities I gave him.

I would have preferred to keep my heart open. He left me with only two choices, to be destroyed, or to disconnect. I could not choose the warm and trusting marriage alone.

[Poison Ivy]

Based on my experience, I agree with Square, especially this: "I would have preferred to keep my heart open. He left me with only two choices, to be destroyed, or to disconnect. I could not choose the warm and trusting marriage alone."

[zad7242]

Square, I thank you for taking the time to share your experience and how these techniques shaped your relationship and view of it. Certainly, things I had not thought of before, or if I did, I probably suppressed them out of guilt. Specifically, having to make a choice to disconnect. It is really hard to think of having a long-term marriage when I basically have decided to stop reasoning with my spouse and stopped caring what judgements she has of me. Because leaving has always been a conscious thought of mine, even if only as an escape fantasy, I have been anxious about not challenging accusations she makes of me in fear that silence could end up being consent in a legal proceeding. I believe the balance is letting go of her ad hominem attacks while still calmly denying any substantive allegations she makes against me, like abusing her or the children for example. It is a good invitation towards humility to allow her to call me names (yesterday she said it was hard for her to even see me as a human being anymore), in front of the children and I just remain silent or walk away. 

[square]

This isn't about being a doormat. You do not have to just silently take that.

NoJADE means you don't get drawn into an argument about what you did or didn't do, or what constitutes abuse, or anything else.

But instead of standing silently, try something like this:

I won't engage in this. (Leave room.)

This is not okay. (Leave house for a while.)

You can be collected and calm and firm.

[square]

You can also deny accusation you may fear are being recorded by looking her in the eye and saying "No."

Calmly. Firmly.

[zad7242]

NoJADE means you don't get drawn into an argument about what you did or didn't do, or what constitutes abuse, or anything else.

But instead of standing silently, try something like this:

I won't engage in this. (Leave room.)

This is not okay. (Leave house for a while.)


You can be collected and calm and firm.

Thank you, this is a really good clarification of the noJADE tool.

[Poison Ivy]

"I have been anxious about not challenging accusations she makes of me in fear that silence could end up being consent in a legal proceeding."

IMO, if you challenge accusations your wife makes of you, it is possible that you will become involved in an argument or fight (words, physical, both), and an argument or fight has the potential to be much more damaging in a legal proceeding than your wife saying, "I criticized him and he didn't respond."

[zad7242]

Poison Ivy, I appreciate your last thought because it's consistent with my therapist's belief that my wife is trying to provoke me into an abusive reaction (or perhaps trying to provoke me into leaving her and the realization of the self-fulfilling prophecy of abandonment). She has a history of one physically abusive romantic relationship in addition to her FOO issues. I can definitely see where silence is the far better option to being provoked into becoming the projection she thinks I am. Me staying calm or not responding challenges her internal working model that men are fundamentally out to hurt her, and that she is perpetually a victim. She would have to entertain a new way of thinking about her role in relationships for her to accept, I'm a dumb butthead many times, but not abusive and she is not perfect.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Wasn't sure what to call this topic, but this is about caretaking but also about uPDw seeming to pile responsibilities on herself to always make sure she is the one more exhausted in the relationship, but then not accept concrete help.

For starters, my uPDw, does the lion's share of household shores and child rearing. She is wonderful at this, openly accepts these responsibilities despite the stress, which include homeschooling (her decision which I support), ungrateful children, monotonous chores etc. I do help out, I think substantially with these things, when I am not working or studying for the bar exam, which I currently am. For example, I take care of our 8-month-old baby and 2-year-old during the nights, which includes sometimes multiple feedings throughout the night, so my wife does not need to be woken up etc. She sleeps on a different level of the house as me and the babies.  I know I need to do better in terms of stepping up with handling parenting issues, cooking more meals for the family etc. I own that and know I can and need to do better.

However, my wife, despite the stress levels of just our ordinary activities, takes on extra responsibilities that are wonderful but make it harder for us keep our heads emotionally above water. For example, she went from not wanting our children to attend Sunday religious education to insisting she teach it, and also making sure she supplies our small church with baked goods every week. I, of course look selfish if I'm like "don't we have enough going on?" These additional responsibilities are great for her in terms of social connection, etc, but its either all or nothing with her it seems like sometimes.

It's just part of a general theme of my wife always needing to be more tired than I am. I know she has every reason to be exhausted on a daily basis, but it almost feels like I'm being one-upped in tiredness or physical pain on a daily basis. Of course, I can't vent to her, which is why I'm doing it here, lol. Just wondering if others see this pattern of "I'm so exhausted and you don't help, but let's do more and more, or if you do help, you aren't helping in the right way." This pattern can lead to both people in the relationship drowning and I don't know how to get out of it.........

Catching up and going back to the beginning of the thread here. A lot of great advice, but yes I too see what you see. I don't see you as selfish for questioning the level of involvement in outside commitments for your family. It's wise to not spread too thin what limited energy you have. A blended family and babies are enormous challenges all on their own. You would necessarily be turned pretty inward in these years in my opinion, just establishing your own family culture. It's impossible not to compare myself here, so I apologize for any inadvertent projection. We have a similar age baby and we homeschool all but our eldest. The school's PTA president kindly told me I am not allowed to volunteer this year. And I said thanks I wasn't gonna!

I have to gently question: Is your wife really wonderful at all this? Or do the children bear some of the burden of her need to be the martyr? I wasn't homeschooled myself, but I had a martyr mother and ho boy was there major scapegoating as she tried desperately to get validation for all she did for us... ungrateful children. Seeing that phrase in your post honestly did raise a flag for me. Are they ungrateful for being used for their (step)mother's own reasons? Or is their normal childishness greatly exaggerated or provoked at times by mom?

Do you in fact need to step up more? It seems that you may be an exceptionally conscientious contributor to the family already. It seems also from what you've written that no matter what you take off her plate your wife is going to pile more on, as she has to be the more exhausted one. For example if you made dinner one night, would she more likely to go for a walk by herself, give the babies a bath, or put together her lesson plan for Sunday? There comes a point where your help becomes enabling this dynamic. You get to have boundaries around running yourself ragged to catch a moving goalpost here. Just because she wants to be exhausted doesn't mean you have to keep pace. Your kids need a sane parent. And equity really isn't practical or even desirable when the parents have completely different day to day responsibilities outside of and in the home. It's very inefficient, if nothing else, and parents of a large family would value efficiency. For us the dinner and prayer and bedtime routine takes 3-4 hours with everyone on it! It's not unpleasant (usually), but it is work. We could cut the lengthy story times but it's good. The goal is for everyone to work and rest and enjoy being home together. If you are out at work and studying every day, when do you get to enjoy what you're working for? Your wife is in it all day and there's no clocking out, true. But she also has the freedom to decide a million things that can ease the load in the course of a day, to take her rest when opportunity affords, and create those opportunities all for her very own self. Just food for thought.

[zad7242]

   Cordelia,

   It is very confusing with my wife in regard to her role as mother. The kids adore her, they do know what certain mines not to step on but overall, even my biological children from my first marriage love her very much and I can't imagine them losing a second mother, whom they care for. My wife genuinely desires raising healthy children and does so much right in terms of parenting. Whenever I say this to people who know our situation they usually respond, "yeah but she calls you all kinds of terrible names in front of them." She has also called my 6-year-old bio-son (her stepson) a retard etc, but she has gotten much better with that.