Trying to regain intimacy

[zad7242]

Sorry I am throwing a lot out there as I begin my journey of trying to better my marital situation, but I appreciate all the support and wise advice.

Another issue my uPDw and I are dealing with is intimacy and not only of the sexual variety. So, we are a blended family, 6 kids total all under 11 years old. My wife and I 100% agree on no more babies. However, we have a major religious difference on how to achieve our desired family planning. She changed her views under the circumstances, I have held to our religious beliefs and sought out advice from our clergy- which has reassured me that I am staying true to what I hold the dearest.

My wife has screamed at me for the last 2 in days in a row about my resistance to getting a vasectomy claiming I am choosing what priests tell me is right, versus what she is telling me she needs. Again, we agreed on these issues when we got married. There are ways that we could with almost 100% certainty ensure no more kids, but vasectomy and some other forms of artificial birth control are not among them.

Alongside this difficult crossroad, comes the challenge of trying to build other non-sexual ways of having intimacy. My wife tells me consistently that just because sex is off the table right now doesn't mean that I can't initiate other forms of intimacy to show her I love her. I 100% agree with that but with the PD partner comes the challenge of trying to cultivate closeness/vulnerability with someone in the aftermath of them screaming at you, calling you names, etc. My wife expects me to keep coming back, accept being pushed away the first 10 times as I try to snuggle with her or give her a massage. Or conversely, it's my job to be open to her initiating a snuggle or some other form of closeness. This is very hard for me to open myself up to that. She says I need to understand how angry she is and be able to tolerate getting smacked down and over time I will eventually prove I love her by continuing to try to connect with her. Almost all attempts at these other forms of intimacy end in me "doing it wrong" in some way anyway, so again it's really hard.

I am certainly not trying to get anyone to agree with my religious viewpoint regarding contraception, just giving some context to the gravity of the challenge we face in restoring a sex life (we haven't had sex in about 15-20 months approximately). We have a two-prong problem in that we fundamentally disagree on something that would have resulted in us never getting married in the first place, and the emotional/psychological roadblock of trying to rebuild the desire for sexual intimacy in the fog of PD. 

[square]

Sorry to hear it.

The family planning issue is a good example of boundaries. You both agree you don't  want more children. She would like for you to undergo a vasectomy, but that is your body and your choice, both for your physical and faith preferences.

You both have to agree to the conditions under which you have sexual intimacy, and if you can't, it's off the table - and that's where you are now.

There is surely room for you both to have some type of intimacy under certain conditions, but if she is closed to this discussion and feels it must be done her way alone, there is no way forward.

As for the aspect of snuggles and hugs and such, I would personally not be comfortable with the expectation that you keep trying after being pushed away. Being rejected over and over isn't something I could personally tolerate. And I have no wish to push someone else's boundaries. If they are not interested in me hugging them, I'm going to respect that - for both of us.

My husband sometimes would seek physical closeness after being particularly vicious to me. I believe he'd feel bad and want to be close. He would say a simple apology ad expect that would just erase the hurt instantly and allow me to then provide him the physical comfort and soothing he craved.

I can heal myself of the hurt but not instantly from a few empty words. He sometimes apologized, but it would just happen again. I would accept having to heal myself but it would take some time for me to make myself feel better. He would not do the work to make me feel better, no soothing or comfort for me, just "sorry about that" and I'd be expected to fling open my arms and make HIM feel better.

If I did not provide that, he'd yell and storm out and not speak to me for days. I utterly hated being in this position - a vicious tongue-lashing followed by an empty apology then demand to soothe HIM under the threat of further emotional terrorism.

I couldn't do it. I just kept my guard up and let him yell. It really was something to me that he would do it again. Why would he put us both in that position again? It baffled me.

Unfortunately, intimacy is a problem when there is toxicity. Either you continue to pay the price in order to continue the intimacy - price of too many rejections, demands to mind read, demands to soothe the partner who hurt you - or the intimacy dries up as you stop paying the toll for both of you.

You're here because you can't choose the third choice, a reasonably safe partnership, because that requires both partners.

[bloomie]

Zad, square sums it up so well here:

a reasonably safe partnership, because that requires both partners.

Taking the view of a woman who has 6 children under 11 there may be a great deal of fear behind all of this for her. And seeing this from your side of things...now, having experienced these rejections, there must be confusion and fear for you, too. That is not an environment that is conducive to intimacy. So... now what?

The thing about marriage, and I have been married a very long time, is people adjust and change their views and beliefs about things. Important things. Especially in the cold light of day when the practical application of said views is overwhelming and possibly not sustainable for someone. It seems that is what you are faced with.

So, what could be a compromise that would allow reassurance of zero risk of pregnancy for your wife? Is it possible to talk with someone not affiliated with your church and who is a neutral advocate for both of you and get some in person advice about your options that respects both your needs and viewpoints?

[zad7242]

Thank you Bloomie and again square,

I definitely am trying to get as many perspectives as possible while also staying true my moral beliefs and avoiding resentment for compromising them. It is certainly true that often times believes are easy to hold when they are philosophical or theoretical in nature only. Real life can and should shape those beliefs.

An additional worry for me, is what happens if I have a vasectomy, and I still don't feel like sex is the emotionally safe thing for us? (that can be a rhetorical question) as I know it will be difficult, and she will be very offended.

[Call Me Cordelia]

There's a lot going on for you, needless to say. I can relate to a lot of what you are dealing with. I'm a Catholic homeschooling mother with 7 kids 14 and under. I am also orthodox on the Catholic teachings on contraception. It's hard, but my husband is a good man. (Aside, he doesn't deal with night parenting. I have flexibility he does not.)

Catholic or not, I believe nobody has the right to demand you to make a permanent decision that compromises your bodily integrity. And nobody has the right to demand that you take rejection repeatedly, as often as she feels like rejecting you, without consequences when her feelings change.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I didn't see your reply when I wrote mine, but if you compromise your moral beliefs to appease your wife without really truly changing your beliefs, that seems like a perfect recipe for resentment and regret. Fear of pregnancy at certain times is very real and in a healthy marriage is something that can be worked through to build intimacy in other ways when sex is temporarily off the table. I'm seeing a power dynamic here that is very unhealthy, and yes, as you said, no emotional safety.

[zad7242]

 Thank you, Cordelia

 I totally agree with you and thank you for responding - you certainly would understand the moral position I am in better than many. And while I am trying to keep an open mind and would love to land in a place that makes my wife happy, fulfills my desire to have no more children, and allows me to stay true to my faith, I can only really consider perspectives that are within a certain moral framework, i.e. what the Catholic Church teaches. I think you probably understand that natural family planning or abstinence are the only options. Please let me know if you think otherwise! And again, even if we cracked the nut of the theological differences there is still all the verbal abuse/emotional safety issues.

Bigger point than the theology is that in addition to all the PD stuff, my wife changed her mind on a fundamental issue that effects our marriage, and she emotionally berates me for not changing along with her. Change is fine, but she has to own she is the one who changed and work with me to see how we deal with that within our marriage or choose it's too high a hill to climb. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yeah, I get it. I hope you are able to get the support you need, for all these issues. If your wife truly did go into the marriage with the expectation that you would get a vasectomy, that would be grounds for annulment. I'm not saying that this is in fact the case, but just that her demand here really is a big freakin' deal. Browbeating YOU for not just coming alongside her as if it's not a big deal is just so disrespectful. And if that's the way she interacts about ANY issue, that can only harm intimacy on every level and your ability to maturely deal with the issue at hand together. She's made her immaturity the issue.

FWIW, there are many options that fall under the "natural family planning" umbrella. However, ALL of them require mature communication when avoiding pregnancy.

[Poison Ivy]

There's a lot going on here. (That is, it's not just about the sex.) I think you and your wife should seek help, together, from a counselor or therapist.

[SonofThunder]

Hi zad.  I always assume 'control' in difficult sexual situations with a PD because of my own experiences.

Shortly after my two kids were born, all birth control was denied by my wife and was 100% on me. Ok fine.

Then condoms became uncomfortable for her so that was out. Then she made claims of an allergy to me, so ovulation cycle timing methods would not be accepted and all completion for me during intercourse was denied. Other forms of sexual enjoyment for me then became off the table but she desired them for herself.  After that, flat out denials started because she was just not in the mood, or projecting a bad attitude on me which killed her desire, plus her medications potential side effects, and any other concocted reason for sex denial.

Longest sexless period was a full year right around the time I came out of that fog and discovered personality disorders.  Interesting that after that sexless year, I shocked her by calling her bluff on a divorce threat. She then became interested in sex again as a hoover, yet I was not cycling the IDD, but I accepted the invitation for sex.  Still frustrated, she then totally reversed directions and started using sex as a test to see if I would regularly perform in a worsening climate of devaluation with heaped helpings of discard on top. Her own new game of control, waiting for me to fail. All of that only continued to escalate as I refused to cycle the IDD. Sex was just a tool used for decades for IDD cycle compliance.

In that new flipped sex performance challenge, I just made a game for myself out of her attempted control and mentally swept her days prior manipulations to the curb on the expected weekly 'date-night'. Game on!  I read a book about utilizing the wonderful complexity of a female's body to heighten her sexual experiences and then to that I added the use of all the senses to the entire evening's menu in order to take my wife to a place she had not been before. I was not only meeting her challenge in a neutralizing manner, but instead turning it into my advantage in the control game she was playing. 

My date night success nullified her 'performance under fire' challenge on me, which backed her into her own sex double-bind.  Refuse again and she's now the loser of her new sexual experiences!  That caused her great frustration and for me the hypocrisy of her past sexual refusal claims were splayed wide open, but went unmentioned by me for self-protective toolbox reasons. She then dug her heels into deeper forms of devaluation and discard (overt and covert) . . . but wanted date night to continue. 

I would challenge you zad to find a way to test what you are experiencing from her and see what her reaction becomes.  Consider silently showing her that you are just fine in the current sexless status-quo since you refuse to go under the knife and see if her reactions to punish you escalate because of your lack of frustration.  My wife despised her control attempts to fall flat.  If your wife were to similarly reintroduce sex as a hoover attempt, fully enjoy the sex restart, but do not cycle the IDD in other areas of your life and see what happens.  Imo silently exposing the truth of the past by causing a PD to do a 180 degree turn of hypocrisy, will tell you what you may desire to know.

I will add one more thought for you. Can you imagine how you would feel if you complied to the vasectomy request and then she continued to deny you sex??  That is a full possibility. We can only control our own actions and/or reactions, not those of another adult. 

Motive is everything.

SoT

[zad7242]

Poison Ivy, I really wish we could do marriage counseling our only experience with it lasted 4 sessions, my therapist telling me I was being abused and my wife filing an ethics complaint against the therapist, which was found to be unsupported.

SoT,

Very intriguing strategy! My wife does believe I'm content with a sexless marriage. I'm not content but it feels safe. Even when we've regularly had intercouse, I've also regularly struggled with ED. Never happened in my previous marriage and started on our honeymoon right after my wife had a meltdown in the hotel on our wedding night.
I think my wife genuinely believes I am making her choose between a sexless marriage and the risk of pregnancy. It's vasectomy or 100 babies and she goes completely insane. I emphasize with her on that. The sane solution is divorce if she doesn't take responsibility for why we don't engage in other forms of intimacy and consider the forms of family planning she said she supported when we married.

On a side note, she started in tonight with saying "I can't even get anyone to diagnose me (with BPD) and everyone I talk to tells me I'm having normal trauma reactions" She doesn't see a therapist unless she is doing it secretly and she was the one in the first place who endorsed having BPD. I was stupid and broke the first commandment of Eggshells and asked my wife to consider whether she thought BPD could be a fit for her. She instantly embraced the label and now frames it as I manipulated her into thinking she has it.

[SonofThunder]

Thats a difficult scene zad, and Im sorry you find yourself in this situation. Fully understood. I had another comrade here on Out of the FOG at one time whose wife "had a meltdown in the hotel on our wedding night.". You are not alone in that experience.

I also fully understand your wife using BPD now as an excuse to live in the victim role.

You wrote: 

"I think my wife genuinely believes I am making her choose between a sexless marriage and the risk of pregnancy".

That right there is imo, where you should conduct some truth tests, because she is closing off all avenues for your success by using intimacy (all forms) as a weapon for a control feed.

You wrote previously:

"My wife tells me consistently that just because sex is off the table right now doesn't mean that I can't initiate other forms of intimacy to show her I love her."

That has nothing to do with intercourse or a vasectomy. 

And also:

"She says I need to understand how angry she is and be able to tolerate getting smacked down and over time I will eventually prove I love her by continuing to try to connect with her. Almost all attempts at these other forms of intimacy end in me "doing it wrong" in some way anyway, so again it's really hard."

She is creating a no-win scenario for you in any form of intimacy. Again imo, it's not really about intimacy, but about a control feed for her and intimacy is a dangerously effective weapon in the hands of a married partner; especially if religion is utilized alongside as a weapon of limitation and/or guilt.

Since she is open to other forms of intimacy at the moment, would you be willing to counter her control game with your own strategy to bring her sexually to a place she may have not experienced/experienced from you before (without intercourse)?  That strategy for me was successful and since its challenging, it can be motivating for you.  Although intercourse was once again allowed for me as a consolation prize at the end of the successful date night, I brought my wife to her heightened sexual experiences without intercourse at all. 

If your intimacy strategy could nullify the "doing it wrong" then that will be your silent victory and she will have to expose some new form of control to take its place, which may show you that intimacy is only a weapon for a PD control feed. If no matter how skilled you could become in delivering these experiences for her, she still makes claims you are "doing it wrong", that also is educational for you. Intimacy is only one tool in the vast array of weapons in the PD's own toolbox. 

SoT

[jumpin]

SoT, Im not sure Im following you. So you take her out on date nights to build the emotional connection? Then what typically follows?

[SonofThunder]

SoT, Im not sure Im following you. So you take her out on date nights to build the emotional connection? Then what typically follows?

Hi jumpin,

Not going to derail zad's thread. What i'm suggesting to zad is that he may desire to filter the truth from the current foggy scene by challenging himself to go over and beyond his wife's expectations in the only avenue she's left open at the moment (non-intercourse intimacy) to see if its mostly her fear of becoming pregnant or whether its mostly about control.

In my writing, 'date night' was my PDw's newly expected performance each week, typically an outing that ended in intimacy. Ime, PD's use raised performance bars and intimacy (restriction, refusal) as one of many ways to control for a feed.

Therefore I went from a state of my PDw's refusal to over and beyond any intimacy performance bar height my wife could raise in her 180 degree switch, in order to neutralize her testing of me, and then waited to see what other method my PDw would use to put her in a spot for devaluation that leads to victimhood.  When my wife moved on to other methods of control, I then realized that both her intimacy refusals and her new desires were all control related and not about the past excuses with intimacy in which she was manufacturing to deny and restrict me.  Ime, this kind of thing from a PD is all about control, not really about intimacy.

Therefore for zad, if that motive was true with his wife, then him going under the knife is not a solution to rid himself of PD control through intimacy.  If he desires intimacy though for himself, regardless of his wife's control-motive, he could consider wowing her in the only intimacy method available to him at the moment.  Imo it's both a test of her motives but also at the same time, may bring some intimacy back into his life for some relief. 

Emotional connection with a PD?  I believe the nonPD hosts the PD's emotions, so true emotional connection is void.  It may sometimes feel like emotional connection, but imo/ime that is only as true as the performance level of the nonPD.  Since the PD lives on the revolving cycles of the drama triangle, feelings of "emotional connection" may only be the very brief rescuer stage, and vanishes upon the next move to persecution and then the slide over to victimhood.  Wash, rinse, repeat. 

SoT

[bloomie]

zad7242 - popping back in here to gently say that this is an intensely personal and complex issue in your intimate life with your wife. We are not equipped to fully understand all of the potential medical, mental health, spiritual and faith standards that are impacting your relationship and the intimate connection you are struggling to reestablish.

A systemic and practical approach to both the big picture and detailed issues in your marriage by highly trained discreet professionals that can look at all aspects and advise you in real life, is going to be your best possible chance of deciding the odds of you building something that is sustainable for both of you and your children.

We can do a lot of unintentional damage offering advice that may be a very poor fit for your situation and I caution you to be careful and wise as you continue forward through the challenges you are facing. We want to be careful of making generalizations and assumptions in how we interact with one another and offer insights.

We can and will support you and encourage you, but we are limited when it comes to what we can offer in acute issues like you are describing.

From our about us info:

We are neither medical, legal, nor mental health professionals.  Out of the FOG is not intended as a substitute or replacement for therapy, counseling, or professional mental health services.

[zad7242]

  SoT,

  Currently and for the last few months, my wife has not been open to any kind of sexual activity. She wants me to initiate not sexual forms of physical intimacy. If given the opportunity again, I would seriously consider your strategy! However, whenever we have decided to engage in sexual intimacy that is aimed at maximizing her pleasure while stopping short of intercourse, it almost always goes horribly. She usually starts crying or becomes angry at the fact that she felt like we could not have sex. Sometimes we did because of fear of pregnancy, other times my issues with ED. (I did start taking the blue pill after a while). Maybe if I do my homework and am better skilled next time, I can make it a better experience for her.
 
  Not saying control has no role in it, but I do believe my wife is genuinely terrified of another pregnancy. She suffered from post-partum psychosis after our last two children were born. She insists this never happened when my stepchildren were born.

[SonofThunder]

Zad, im glad that you have a good understanding of what is going on in your situation and sorry you suffer with ED as well as the factors you describe which causes your wife to be fearful, in which then I feel sorry for her as well. 

To Bloomies excellent point, all the complexities surrounding the details she listed in the 'about us' section are now well taken. For me and my own experiences, control led the way and I was always needing to find truth.  In my marriage, intimacy was weaponized and I utilized specific strategies, unique to me and my wife and our relationship, to teach me what I needed to know. 

The mix of "potential medical, mental health, spiritual and faith standards" that Bloomie stated is a whole different set of variables that make things very difficult.  Yes, it's a very personal topic indeed and one that plagued my decades of marriage to my PDw. 

Wishing you the best as you try to regain intimacy in your marriage. 

SoT

[IsleOfSong]

I wonder if the ED is related, in part, to how conflicted you feel about the marriage. Being intimate with someone who weaponizes intimacy (physical and emotional) can be tricky business, for sure. The blue pill is a good strategy!

[zad7242]

I 100% believe it's related to not feeling safe. I know with age comes increased susceptibility but I'm only 40 and I know a vast majority of the cases are psychological. My wife attributed it to me not being able to move on from my late wife. Logical as a starting hypothesis, but I knew this wasn't true.  She no longer thinks it's true either and blames it on a host of other things now. 

[SonofThunder]

I 100% believe it's related to not feeling safe. I know with age comes increased susceptibility but I'm only 40 and I know a vast majority of the cases are psychological. My wife attributed it to me not being able to move on from my late wife. Logical as a starting hypothesis, but I knew this wasn't true.  She no longer thinks it's true either and blames it on a host of other things now. 

Zad, im reading once more through Bloomies very wise, careful, loving and admin-professional comments once again.  Im very grateful for those that lead here at Out of the FOG. 

Looking back at my replies, I realize how much your initial post in your struggles with intimacy in your marriage, struck a chord within me, as a fellow comrade with a (stbx)PD wife.  I personally believe intimacy (in whatever form) is such a vitally crucial piece of the mystery of the marital union.

As a man of the Christian faith, I fully accept the high calling in which God places on intimacy's reservation for marriage and also the special freedoms for expression of intimacy within the privacy of that reservation. Therefore also, in my specific personal marital circumstances, why I was especially (imo rightfully) dismayed when I realized that my PDw was using our sacred right of intimacy in marriage to manipulate me for the selfish reasons of a control feed. 

In rereading your replies, the much wider variables of "..potential medical, mental health, spiritual and faith standards that are impacting your relationship" (Bloomies words) may be in play which is very different from my own.  My sincere apologies to you zad, for allowing the subject of intimacy in marriage, from a mans perspective and also from my personal and private experiences to govern my replies.

I can be an emotion-filled romantic and I desired that in intimacy with my wife, but was never able to obtain a connection, imo because my PDw was always self-focused. My marriage was just a one-way street where all roads ran to her emptiness and many deliveries in her direction were necessary to attempt to keep her filled. There was never enough to satisfy her void.

Therefore why I wrote about intimacy in my particular situation, being used by my PDw as a selfish tool for delivery to her emotional needs, whichever street she chose (deny, allow, restrict).  Also why I wrote (now to my regret..oh well, can't erase) about my very personal and unique-to-me challenge strategies, which may have zero alignment with your particular situation, therefore again my apologies to you for the detour from your unique situation. 

You initially wrote:

"...but with the PD partner comes the challenge of trying to cultivate closeness/vulnerability with someone in the aftermath of them screaming at you, calling you names, etc."

Wow, that is SO very true in my experiences, and was probably the biggest hurdle for me to face in the realm of my struggles with intimacy in my marriage (when intimacy was allowed by my PDw).  As Bloomie stated about mental health factors, the mindset of my PDw was instinctively 'self'; and like a wild cougar, she was always hungry. The predator/prey relationship was never ending in my marriage, and the expectations of one-way-street intimacy within the above quoted conditions you wrote about, is a daunting task. 

You write about your wife trying to find reasons (other than her treatment of you) for why you suffer in ways, and that just probably adds to the frustration surrounding the horse-blinders that PD's wear, allowing them to only see straight forward to the other person. I sincerely hope you can find some intimacy relief in the marital struggle with a PD. 

SoT