Mentally Exhausted

[Deby64]

Wow,
I am driving myself insane vacillating back and fort with I love him and want to stay and I love him, but have to leave. My husband of 40 years is PPD with Nac traits and it is so exhausting to be blamed for everything. When I attempt to show him the error of his way, he becomes defensive. It's like I can see the wounded child in him protecting himself. His ability to take responsibility for anything is no where to be found. I have accepted that it is part of his disorder, but it doesn't make it any easier on my mental state. Tonight he told me, he could tell that I am not happy, if I would just submit to him and follow his lead, we would be better off. In my mind, I think are you crazy as hell. He hasn't had taxable income in 10 years, he does odd jobs here and there to keep money in his pocket and yes, I get kibbles and bits for things. Then hear about the kibbles and bits as if he gave me a million dollars. Our home is paid for and he knows I could go get an apartment and make it just fine on my own. I truly believe he wants me to give him this house so he can be the King of the hill. I don't have a problem doing that, but I also know he will also be looking for me to help him with the bills in this house if I were to leave. He is so manipulative, he says we are grown adults and if we are unequally yoked and making each other miserable, we should just part. When I agree, he comes back with that's what you wanted to do all along, you don't love me.....Then the anger begins. I don't try to defend or explain, because he can't listen anyways, I just let him preach on and on for 20=30 minutes. If I attempt to speak, he says I'm disrespecting him by cutting him off. I do try to cut him off because I've heard the same victim stuff for years and I am fed-up. After loosing his stuff, he will shortly returns as if nothing just happened. I CAN'T !!!!!!

[square]

I can relate to a lot of that. My husband has PPD traits, but not NPD. He is also fixated on blame and it's exhausting and sometime bizarre when an emergency happens and the most important thing is to figure out the blame instead of dealing with the emergency.

/quote]

I've seen that child, too. And perhaps these bits of vulnerability is what keeps us in place. I don't make any attempts to show him the error of his ways, though - not helpful for anyone.

Tonight he told me, he could tell that I am not happy, if I would just submit to him and follow his lead, we would be better off.

I mean, he could submit to you and it would be harmonious.

That's the thing, you both are people, and erasing one to please another is no solution.

Our home is paid for and he knows I could go get an apartment and make it just fine on my own. I truly believe he wants me to give him this house so he can be the King of the hill. I don't have a problem doing that

Since you have the means, have you considered getting the apartment while continuing the relationship?

Could you then visit or meet him on your terms and cut a visit short if it's not going well?

And carve out a space for yourself and your choices?

but I also know he will also be looking for me to help him with the bills in this house if I were to leave.

That could be set up as a boundary that you can choose to maintain. Whether you expect him to fully maintain himself, or you have certain items or cases where you are willing to contribute.

Would you fear sabotage of the property?

I just let him preach on and on for 20=30 minutes. If I attempt to speak, he says I'm disrespecting him by cutting him off. I do try to cut him off because I've heard the same victim stuff for years and I am fed-up.

Yeah, you don't need to sit there for 20-30 minutes while he spews at you. Can you leave the area when he does it? Would you be physically safe? If you fear being told that you "always" cut him off, the solution is to embrace it. That's right, you cut off that kind of thing each and every time, like any self respecting person. This will not change his behavior, but it will take his power away. So what, let him say you "always" cut him off.

After loosing his stuff, he will shortly returns as if nothing just happened. I CAN'T !!!!!!

Medium chill may help you here.

[Deby64]

Square, thanks for your response. I'm really focused on self. I know if I will focus on changing my responses and seeking peace at all cost, I'll have more joy. Move hot buttons, so he can't push them. Understanding his perception is his reality, it doesn't have to be mine. I don't want to get the apartment because the thought of being financially responsible for 2 places make me sick. I believe in my heart he'd let our main home become destroyed. He can't keep it up, he thinks he can, yet his reality is irrational. Oh, to make matters worse, he loves the Lord and uses scripture to hit me over the head. Nothing applies to him, but all point to me and my shortcomings. The crazy part is when I still away and focus on me, I start to see some truth in what he says. Then I start to afk myself is he brain washing me. I'm not running for the hills yet, but I'm just seeking stability in my mental. It helps to have the space to vent with others who truly get it.

[square]

I too can get really caught up in my husband's pronouncements of my shortcomings. In my case, what does the biggest number on me is not the stuff where I can kinda see his point, but the stuff that makes absolutely zero sense. I can't make it make sense so I go round and round trying to make some glimmer of sense out of it.

One thing that helped me a lot is to stop focusing on his words and his framing and find my own framing. My husband isn't some exulted being with divine insight. My insight counts for just as much. And I can certainly think about his weaknesses and shortcomings.

To me, this isn't the same as turning it around on him or avoiding looking at my shortcomings. It's just a rebalance. I can push away his pronouncements and observe HIS behavior.

It is his goal to shine the spotlight on me and my behavior so I go into a tizzy trying to fix whatever I can without thinking about his behavior. So now I can calmly and maturely observe him ESPECIALLY when he tries to throw me off the scent of his own responsibility - or, as he'd see it, the blame.

My MIL also threw up so much smoke about what a bad, ungrateful, and childish DIL she had (me). I broke through a good amount of my fear of her when I started asking myself how great of a MIL she was. Turns out, not great at all. So the lady I feared became a bit more pathetic.

[Deby64]

Square,
Awesome insight. My frustration comes from my inability to bring up his shortcomings without a rage festival. I'm still trying to figure out how I lived in this for 40 years. I'm just really seeing the behavior, yet our grown children tell me mom, he's always been like this. I'm doing my best not to vent with our children;after all he is their father and I don't want to transfer my resentment and anger onto them. Yet, they know us both and I feel led to share with them. However, that's so unfair to them. I have to keep a healthier boundary with them. That's why I thank God I found this forum. Wrapping my head around this is as good as it gets, so live with it is hard. I try to picture life apart from him and can't make it make sense. Learning to share myself with others to meet my needs for communication seems wrong on so many levels. It's as if my opinions don't matter to him unless they are 100% in agreement with his. I can't have my own mind and thoughts with him. Praise God for journaling. He's so PPD/Narc that he's cut off relationships with his family. I know his sisters would understand what I'm going through, but it feels as if I'm betraying him if I have a relationship with them. His PPD causes him to think I'm plotting something against him, he can't see that I just care about them, so I keep our relationship to a bare minimum. Telling then nothing about him. His victim stance when I do push back some makes me sick to my stomach. I wanna yell grow the heck up, then I remember his disorder and say oh yeah. He can't. What a trap.

[square]

My frustration comes from my inability to bring up his shortcomings without a rage festival.

It would be nice to be able to discuss things for improvement with a partner. It can be hard for any of us, much less for a narcissist, to hear our shortcomings.

Here is where boundaries may help. Since you have tried asking him for changes, to no avail, you can implement your own boundaries without further discussion.

Boundaries are lived by you and not meant to change him or his behavior. They are ways you can get your needs met without him, where you decide what you will tolerate ad what you will walk away from. They are ways you decide what tasks you are willing to take on for your own reasons, and what you will simply allow to go undone or done by him on his schedule and his way.
 
While you cannot control him - and thank goodness that we do each have free will to exercise - you can control yourself and take your own power back. But you have to accept that he will make his own decisions and stop expecting things from him that he can't or won't give.

It's possible this will reduce friction and allow you both to enjoy each other more. Or, it may reveal that there is not much to the relationship and you are effectively alone. However, living your boundaries will not have caused that, only revealed it.

I'm still trying to figure out how I lived in this for 40 years. I'm just really seeing the behavior, yet our grown children tell me mom, he's always been like this.

I feel confused myself with my husband. He has definitely changed, but at the same time, it was all there the whole time. It just got a lot worse.

It's why it's calling Coming Out of the FOG.

I'm doing my best not to vent with our children;after all he is their father and I don't want to transfer my resentment and anger onto them. Yet, they know us both and I feel led to share with them. However, that's so unfair to them. I have to keep a healthier boundary with them. That's why I thank God I found this forum.

Agreed, better to share here and journal. I admit I also sometimes vent to my daughter, and should not. In my case, I am also able to honestly tell her things I like or admire about her father, and I tell her how he used to be (he became unwell over time). She definitely doesn't pick sides or need to, and she feels comfortable bringing up positive and neutral topics involving him without triggering any rant from me.

It's tempting to share because, as you said, they know - better than anyone but you. And you are confused and trying to check, is it just me? Do you see this too? But yeah, we gotta carry this one ourselves and just support our kids.

Wrapping my head around this is as good as it gets, so live with it is hard. I try to picture life apart from him and can't make it make sense. Learning to share myself with others to meet my needs for communication seems wrong on so many levels.

It's true, other relationships like friends, kids, siblings, just aren't a replacement for sharing your life with a partner/spouse. It's hard.

I know his sisters would understand what I'm going through, but it feels as if I'm betraying him if I have a relationship with them.

Yeah, let him have - or not have - his own family. We should respect that as we would expect our spouses to not continue relationships with our family if we deem them toxic. I hear you that the sisters may be totally innocent, but sometimes it's complicated, and we should respect that.

[bloomie]

When I attempt to show him the error of his way, he becomes defensive. It's like I can see the wounded child in him protecting himself.

May I ask why you are trying to show an adult man the error of his ways? Especially if he is not interested, able, has the emotional and spiritual maturity to be asking this for himself?

The hard truth is the only thing you can control, change, cure, apply lessons to and improve, learn and grow in is your own life. Your own behaviors. You.

What shifted the round robin and conversations to nowhere in my own decades long relationship with an emotionally immature, highly narcissistic, always right, verbally abusive man was to do the work of establishing my own core values, believing in my own worth and living out boundaries as consistently as possible. For example: Core value is I don't stick around for anyone speaking to me disrespectfully or abusively. I calmly remove myself, hang up the phone, go for a walk, drive, coffee shop... Every. Single. Time.

Something key for me is that I built a network of support for myself because I was living with an exceedingly self centered and emotionally neglectful man. I found a savvy therapist, a little bit older woman who to this day is my mentor, spiritual mother, and dear friend. I have a small trusted group of women that I can safely share with and who offer me the kind of friendship, understanding and support and communication I don't have in my marriage. And I washed up on the shores of Out of the FOG and have been here for 10 years.

I shifted my focus from trying to reason and cooperate and find agreement with a person who had no reason to, and no interest in, meeting me even part way.

As I began to shift, change, grow, detach emotionally from anything that was disrespectful and dysfunctional in communication and focused on my own healing and recovery the atmosphere and dynamic, that dance I was so caught in (or thought I was), shifted with me.

As my true self has emerged and my true personality continues to assert itself it is as wonderful of an experience as it is hard. It is a steep climb to finding oneself while married to someone whose worldview is themselves, who has huge self awareness/others awareness gaps, and who is limited in what they most likely will ever have to offer me.

I have chosen to stay for a lot of reasons, the most important is that as I began to shift and change my H began to have to feel his own feelings and figure out the errors of his ways himself. I am too busy figuring out my own. Over time he is choosing to do the ongoing work he needs to work on himself. It is a process and not perfect by any means and I am not so naive as to believe he couldn't slip back down the slippery slope to where he once was. It doesn't hurt that we share a strong faith, are good at having fun together, we've built a strong circle of friends and family around us and he is a loving father and grandfather - generous and kind to our family. Our kids see him as 'limited' and love him for who he is. I do, too.

My best insights... stop driving yourself insane because of the vacillating. This is someone you have dedicated years and years of your life to. You have built a family together and I am sure you have loved him deeply and well. That is something to be very proud of.

It's time to build a support system for YOU! And you are wise to keep your private stuff private with your kids. Let your H find his own way and have some space to figure himself out. He will, or he won't, but you sure can and we are here to support you as you do!

[Defiantdaughter1]

Do you have a close friend you can talk to regularly and ventilate your feelings? Even if a good friend can't offer advice, it helps to confide in someone. I hate that you have to live this way.

[Deby64]

Love the feedback. We live in a small community. He's been here all his life. I was a military brat and moved back here 40+ years ago and have been with him ever since. I don't have a support network. I share with my mother and brother, yet the get an attitude towards him because they don't understand. I'm sure my sanity comes from changing me and venting in this forum and receiving valuable feedback from people who are likeminded.
Funny part. I've been mild chilling, not responding to anything he says and he started smiling and said I see you working on being a better wife🤦🏾

[JR]

Do you have a close friend you can talk to regularly and ventilate your feelings? Even if a good friend can't offer advice, it helps to confide in someone. I hate that you have to live this way.

  another good idea may be to take some classes like we have local YWCA, Libraries and some Medical facilities offer free classes about numerous subject matter where you can become engaged with others outside of the Narcissists control and make new friends and maybe confidants where you can be in a safer space, i started taking some free classes on Caregiving,Retirement strategies etc. it really doesnt matter just to engage with normal people helps you get out of the Toxic grip of the narcissists abusive cycle.it helped me somewhat its not entirely a silver bullet strategy but it buys you a little time from the narcs control.

[JR]

Love the feedback. We live in a small community. He's been here all his life. I was a military brat and moved back here 40+ years ago and have been with him ever since. I don't have a support network. I share with my mother and brother, yet the get an attitude towards him because they don't understand. I'm sure my sanity comes from changing me and venting in this forum and receiving valuable feedback from people who are likeminded.
Funny part. I've been mild chilling, not responding to anything he says and he started smiling and said I see you working on being a better wife🤦🏾

Deby64 part of the narcs behavior is to drive wedges between their targets and what they would consider SUPPORT networks of friends/family/hobbies/employment in order to better keep total control over the victims mentality, its like not just one paper cut that can bring you to heel, its many, like death by a 1000 papercuts over and over until they completely have you in the palm of their hands begging them to change and stop the negative abuse. these people cannot be reasoned with like normal adults and most of their abuse occurs behind closed doors so that the outside world cannot see it and maybe help you. these narcs are true cowards and bullies and will get whats coming to them eventually, they will overplay their hand and get what they truely fear is Exposure(to the outside world) and Consequensences for bad behavior.

[Deby64]

Wow, the small shifts I've made to focus on myself and not him have changed our dance. The past few days he's been calm and seems more attentive. Lol, or as attentive as his selfish mind will allow him to be. The hard part for me is walking and trusting what's happening. It like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I pray that I can stay focused on my internal peace and let him feel his feelings and figure it out. I remind myself often that I choose peace over being right. This support group has helped me more than I ever thought possible. Thanks for the encouragement,support and honest feedback. It's about changing me not him.

[Rebel13]

Isn't it strange how much of an impact one small change can make? I've recently experienced that in my life, in a different situation, but I am kind of blown away.

I'm glad things are being calm for you! However, I know that often that doesn't last. It seems like you know that too, since you have that sense of dread about what might happen next. But now that you've seen for yourself how much impact using one tool can have, you can look into the Toolbox again and know there are a lot of other tools that might help when a new situation or tactic comes up in your relationship.

Wishing you the best Deby64!

[MaxedOut]

Great update, Deby and glad to hear you are experiencing some respite and are focusing more on yourself. There will probably be other shoes dropping. Changing our behaviors often results in the partners engaging in a range of different behaviors. *And* focusing on ourselves means we have more control over what we can control. And we can use the tools to create more pease within ourselves. This internal reduction in chaos is acheivable whether or not that peace is happening or consistent outside ourselves (but not engaging and the tools usually prevents or reduces a fair amount of stuff). In mindfullness (and meditaion/buddhism) a focus metaphor is often visualization of being a mountain or ocean. We can feel that existence at the surface and feel whipped and torn by storms, baked and chilled by seasons, distracted by all manner of activities happening at the surface. Or we can concentrate on being deeper in and down where things are steadier, more consistent, and the volatility at the surface is understood to be normal stuff and cycles that does not change the nature of the mountain or ocean/lake. If/when stuff does kick up, it may be helpful to think of pulling your perspective higher and lower than the surface.

[Deby64]

I must say again, the support I receive from these post are such a blessing to my soul. Sometimes my H will say things that are so brutal, they maybe honest, but he says them with no filter. I'm doing better at not defending myself with a long explanation that will lead to a blow up. But, I have to admit swallowing that pill at times makes me sick; however, he it keeps down the conflict and he moves on as if he didn't just rip the flesh. I breath in and out counting to 10 and it makes it not as important to me as when he said it. Some of the comments aren't abusive, they are just blunt statements. I think to myself "Did that really need to be said", it's like if he thinks it, he says it hurtful or not. Knowing who I am in Christ Jesus is helping a lot with this bumps, but they are still bumps never the less. I said all this to ask if anyone has experienced this and do you respond or not? Sometimes I think if I say "ouch" that was brutal, it may give him insight into himself??

[MaxedOut]

Others can chime in with more specifics but overall. Not JADEing is not to be confused with "stand there and take it" - it's about not taking the bait in the sense of fueling conflict/argument. And it is not about just creating a fuel vacuum (stopping certain responses without replacing them).

This is where boundaries and shorter responses about the treatment rather than arguing over the content come into play. Some specific examples would probably help with suggestions here. One thing I found is a lot of stuff I didn't think of as abusive, really did create a pattern of mistreatment, invalidation, or had coercive control or emotional manipulation to them. If it's hurtful, I would spend some time thinking on that a bit.

But blunt stuff could mean effective responses along the lines of "I was not asking for opinions." "We have different perspectives on that, as you know, and I think it's best if we keep them to ourselves." "Knock it off." "When you say x, I feel Y, which makes it hard for me to listen or communicate well." "Honey, I'm not enjoying this conversation. I'm going to go make some tea." "I don't need to listen to this (while leaving room)" "Ouch! I'm going to go read for a bit." "What?! Would you repeat that?" "I value conversation that is kind and respectful, and this doesn't feel that way. How about we watch the latest episode of x"

[SonofThunder]

I agree with MaxedOut on noJADE's purpose in using the tool to assist the situation in becoming a boring dead-end street.  In addition to Max's noJADE being used alongside properly designed boundaries to reduced/eliminate our further exposure in the currently unfolding scene.

I do not find my PD's self-reflecting to "...give him insight into himself??"

SoT

[iamlonely]

I don't know if anyone will see this but I hope so. I returned from a lovely trip with my daughter but I was tired & had an awful headache. We were watching tv together and somehow he managed to get in several cutting remarks in a quiet tone that felt like sandpaper on my skin. I finally snapped and snapped badly. I became the abuser in his eyes. He has given me the silent treatment for five days. We live in a small house and the tension in the air is palpable. I am so depressed I've been sleeping all day and haven't unpacked in a week. It's like I lost "the game" and I am being punished like a bad kid.

[square]

Hey there. Your situation definitely deserves its own thread, and I hope you post and share.

It's crushing to be the target of silent treatment. Fortunately, it's possible to break out of carrying that load.

Instead of feeling weighed down by his negative thoughts and feelings about you, you can accept that he is having those feelings and leave him to it.

Go out, do your chores, call someone, enjoy a cup of coffee, move on with your life. I know it sounds trite, but it really is possible to learn to do this.

Do you know anyone who, for better or for worse, just lets stuff roll right off of them without internalizing it? Use them as a role model.

Just because he is treating you like a bad kid doesn't make you a bad kid. In fact, it's quite childish behavior on his part. He's not your daddy, let him have his tantrum on go on with your day.

[Deby64]

This group is such a life saver. Ok, 90 day update. As you know I left my H and moved into a rent house 90 days ago. The divorce is not moving forward at this time. I did the no contact and failed🤣🤣. I'm super addicted to him. I do love him, just not how he treats me. He's been nicer since we don't live together. He keeps asking me to come home. My answer is no. We deserve peace. Until you realize I'm not 100% the reason we aren't together we are not moving. I told him I will not explain anymore, pray and ask God. I'm able to walk away when he talking crazy. I will not allow him in my new house. That triggers his control. I still go in our shared home because I'm paying the mortgage since I refinanced it to pay off all my bills. People keep asking what are we doing. I don't feel lead to explain to anyone. Not even my family. I've sort of explained to the kids, but all I know is to focus on me and learn what boundaries for me really look like. Well here's the update.