Need opinions on what happened today.....

[zad7242]

Putting anything else I've posted on here to the side, I'm need point blank opinions on my actions and my wife's actions today. Not the biggest issue in the world, but I'm at work kind of emotionally reeling right now. So my wife texts about 45 minutes ago, saying how tired she is and that she feels "faint". I offer empathy and then she says "I shouldn't be driving" - as in going to pick the kids up from school. I ask her if she has left yet. She says "yes" that she is already driving. I tell her to be really careful and to let me know when she has arrived safe. After texting me she has arrived safe, she texts me that she is scared to drive home. I immediately call her. The school is about 30 minutes from where I work, similar distance to where we live. When on the phone, I ask her if she needs me to leave work and come get her and the kids, or if there is a friend who can help us out. I also am trying to feel out if she is just "venting" and wants "empathy not solutions" She gets angry at me says, "I'll figure it out myself I guess" and hangs up. My wife is always saying how direct she and if she really needs something she will ask. I did talk to her on the phone one more time about 10 minutes after that and we talked about it. She said she was being direct with me, and she shouldn't have had to come right out and say I needed to leave work.

What's hard is that while it's unusual for her make some of the statements she did today, she is talking about how exhausted she is on an almost daily basis. I do have a job where I could have left without any pushback from my boss, but I could have seen my wife getting upset if I left for a family emergency if she didn't really want me to. I know I could have jumped up and immediately left to make sure she and my kids were safe, but I also think she put me in a bit of an unfair situation. I have left work for mental health emergencies concerning her at a previous job, so it's not unlike I'm not willing to. Please set me straight if needed! Thanks!

[Rebel13]

Hi zad,

I get why you are confused. At best I think you got some very mixed messages here. My opinion is, grown-ups (especially those who consider ourselves "direct") need to be responsible for themselves, their feelings, statements, requests and actions. You asked whether you needed to leave work to pick up your family. In my opinion, if your wife didn't then say "yes please" you did your best. Ideally, before the conversation even got to that point, she wouldn't have been hinting around about how tired and faint she's feeling -- she would have come out and said "zad, I need you to leave work and come get us because I am too tired to drive safely." It's not up to you to read her mind that that's what she wanted. She absolutely SHOULD have had to come right out and say it, if you ask me. A long time ago I read a statement like, "I shouldn't have to be an emotional detective." I feel like often that's what difficult people want. They want other people to read their minds and give them what they want without having to ask. And that just isn't how the world works.

[square]

She said she was being direct with me, and she shouldn't have had to come right out and say I needed to leave work.

So, she was being direct, and she shouldn't have had to actually, you know, say what she wanted directly?

What would it have cost her to say "yes, I need you to come get us"?

The way I read it, you stood on your head to offer every option, tried to gauge how serious this was, etc.

Only your wife knows if she's just feeling crummy or if there is potential danger.

You just coming to get them could have been very inconvenient her HER, let alone you. Because you'd have to deal with getting her car back at some point.

No, this is ridiculous. Your questions and offers were not only reasonable, it would have been unreasonable to do it any other way.

Will she be seeing a doctor about this? Does she have blood sugar issues?

[zad7242]

Thanks, this helps.

No, she doesn't have blood sugar issues. She does have issues with her thyroid levels. Sees a doctor again about it next week. So far they can't find anything wrong with her thyroid. She blames me for the stress I cause as the problem. She was up till 11pm arguing with me about birth control and not doing anything to move us forward as a couple, and up at 5am, plus she never sleeps good in between anyway - it was understandable she was extra tired today. 

[square]

One option you have is to take the "oh well" route. It's extremely stressful trying to keep someone happy, and impossible when what someone really wants is to he unhappy (a victim). You try to figure out how to solve things, but if the goal is for it to be unsolved (and your fault), your effort and stress is useless.

So one path could be to accept that she will feel however she feels and not to take it on yourself.

Perhaps you can even feel useful. "Hmm... I guess Wife really needs someone to be mad at today. Oh well."

You didn't read her mind? Oh well.

She's mad? Oh well.

Look, I'm not made of teflon. This would bother me too. But I have successfully felt calmER with the Oh Well technique, whereby I accept that it's out of my hands and manage to unload as much of the burden as I can.

You're approaching this with the wrong logic, the idea that there was some right response. The logic is that she wants you to be a giant disappointment.

[MaxedOut]

 

[Rebel13]

The logic is that she wants you to be a giant disappointment.

Mic drop. 

[SonofThunder]

From my own experiences, it's drama triangle behavior just as square stated with "...she wants you to be a giant disappointment."

Imo, what Rebel stated about adult interactions is also true, as well as the "oh well" mindset that square so well embraces, so a good variety of feedback.

My PDw would frequently try to corner me in the drama triangle in very offensive (vs the defense position) creative ways, to amplify me as the "...giant disappointment".  Zad, also consider the craftiness of the setup with one episode that your wife pieced perfectly together for a goal powered by 'self'. #motiveiseverything

Topics in the drama: medical, safety, children, work, priorities, care, love, loyalty, effort and so on, all with a clock ticking for you to make up your mind. As I stated, very inventive and no warnings given! (tick, tick, tick..)

Possibly think about how fast these full drama triangle episodes occur.  I like to consider the drama triangle as a bicycle's small front pedaling sprocket and the IDD as the larger back wheel.  It may take many revolutions of the drama triangle to attempt a single revolution of the IDD. 

Imo, in this specific incident, she approached you as victim and assigned you as potential rescuer (a compliance test).  When you did not accept the rescuer role, she jumped briefly to the persecutor role (her anger) so she could move right back to where she started, now having successfully obtained an increased victimhood role by design. The incident ended with you being in the persecutor role by her entire setup to your inaction, which imo assists the larger PD goal of the IDD's revolution. Ime these are more ammunition added to the PD's quiver to pile on in a future argument, chat with a counselor, smear campaigns and so on.  Imo, victimhood is always the foundational goal of the PD.

SoT

[zad7242]

That's very helpful square. Part of my problem is that I'm in my 40's never really dated growing up very much until I married my first wife at 31. She had an NPD mother, had a few years of intensive therapy before we got married, and then I married my current uBPDw, it's hard for me to tell what's normal in a marriage- or honestly what is normal for a woman. She tries to convince that her actions/intensity of her feelings are normal for any woman. My wife is almost daily sending me Tiktok/Instagram videos of women complaining about "men like you" which are supposed to show me that her anger and trauma responses are normal and that men who act like me are considered jerks by their wives.

I totally agree with the "she wants you to be a giant disappointment." I remember a psychologist on Youtube saying that the spouse will always be a projection of the BPD partner's mother (or whoever they think abused them as a kid). I am a composite projection of both my wife's parents. Lazy and negligent like her dad, and narcissistic/hyper-religious rigid like her mom.

[zad7242]

SoT yes!

I totally agree. She labeled me a psychopath for the way I responded. I felt comfortable enough to basically transcribe my text convo with her on here. She stated how she bought a 4-leaf clover charm on her way home (she felt good enough to stop at a store) so that one of her now deceased childhood friends could protect her. Her text to me was "You wife bought an ornament and asked her dead friend to protect her and her children today, because you didn't" This will be ammo for many months to come.

[SonofThunder]

She labeled me a psychopath for the way I responded. I felt comfortable enough to basically transcribe my text convo with her on here. She stated how she bought a 4-leaf clover charm on her way home (she felt good enough to stop at a store) so that one of her now deceased childhood friends could protect her. Her text to me was "You wife bought an ornament and asked her dead friend to protect her and her children today, because you didn't" This will be ammo for many months to come.

Imo its important to remember that it was a lose/lose for you either way (compliance or persecutor) so thats where the "oh well" mindset that square preaches so well, can be very helpful to yourself for future triangle incidents.

*Not all interactions are triangle related which aids in the confusion to catch you off guard.  If they all were, the relationship would probably end, not perpetuate.

If you can hone a fast high-radar for incidents that are triangle related, you can tell yourself at the front end that its lose/lose (a double bind) by design. Therefore, as the drama begins, choose to put the oxygen mask on yourself (51% rule), use mc, no-JADE, common sense and boundaries, letting the incident play out like you know it will (increased victimhood).

To hone my radar, I would run the drama game replay tapes in my mind/journal, to identify the specifics and then think how I did/should-have reacted. By reviewing the play tapes that way, I was steadily improving on seeing play patterns which led to faster and better reactions according to my desired response.  That increases the frustration of the PD, which may call for even more creative PD moves, but it's just the nature of the PD game being played, as the IDD cycle that once ran smoothly is slowly over time, coming to a grinding halt. 

SoT

[square]

it's hard for me to tell what's normal in a marriage- or honestly what is normal for a woman. She tries to convince that her actions/intensity of her feelings are normal for any woman. My wife is almost daily sending me Tiktok/Instagram videos of women complaining about "men like you" which are supposed to show me that her anger and trauma responses are normal and that men who act like me are considered jerks by their wives.

Yeah, it can be hard for any of us to know what's normal really. What you're experiencing is, I'm sorry to say, not exactly rare. But I feel comfortable saying it's not "normal" any more than my angry, vituperative husband is normal for men, even if unhealthy men are not uncommon.

Your wife is surrounding herself in an echo chamber of similar women. She probably does genuinely believe it's normal. But while I can indeed think of several women I know who would play that kind of game, I can think of more women I know who would not.

Her point of view is toxic and helps no one. Framing all actions of all men as being selfish and uncaring destroys her relationships with men and makes her happiness impossible.

Your marriage shouldn't feel like a curse. Marriages aren't perfect and we all feel let down and even hurt, but we should feel like at the end of the day, our partners are our rocks. (And realizing that if I had to go through something really hard, my husband would add to my burden rather than lifting it, was a major turning point for me - based on situations such as him yelling at me while I was in the ER amd not stopping until our daughter told him to knock it off, even though I just took it silently).

And NO, you were not that husband. You were the rock. You offered to come get her. That's wonderful. I would have really appreciated that. It wasn't lack of mind reading that was the problem. She just wanted to be mad.

I totally agree with the "she wants you to be a giant disappointment." I remember a psychologist on Youtube saying that the spouse will always be a projection of the BPD partner's mother (or whoever they think abused them as a kid). I am a composite projection of both my wife's parents. Lazy and negligent like her dad, and narcissistic/hyper-religious rigid like her mom.

Interesting. My husband unconsciously projects his mother on to me even though he readily admits I'm nothing like her. And I guess I recently became his father by moving out.

I think it's a shame how easy it is for all of us to oversimplify "what women are like" and"what men are like." I've chosen to fight that impulse, and therefore have collected various examples of healthy and unhealthy women and men that I know.

[square]

She went SHOPPING? While too sick to drive?

Oh, please. I can't take that seriously.

That text is ridiculous. I'm sorry to say it so baldly because this is your wife and you care about her, and it doesn't feel great for a stranger on the Internet to say such things about someone you care about.

But - I'm saying it anyway just to help with perspective. You're taking her seriously because you're a goid person with empathy (i.e. not a psychopath) but that little gameplay is pure toddler level "I didn't get my way and nobody even cares about me" silliness.

You do not have to take that seriously.

[Rebel13]

it's hard for me to tell what's normal in a marriage- or honestly what is normal for a woman. She tries to convince that her actions/intensity of her feelings are normal for any woman.

Completely not normal. I'm a woman, my partner is a woman, I have women friends, and none of us would ever try to set up someone we loved as your wife did in the situation you describe.

[Rebel13]

Imo its important to remember that it was a lose/lose for you either way

Exactly. If you HAD gone to pick her up, the narrative would have become something like "I didn't ask you to do that, how could you risk your job/our family's security by leaving work early?" Or "You don't trust me, you had to leave work to come spy on me." Or something.

[square]

We had to sit and wait HALF AN HOUR for you to come.

And now we have to go back tonight/tomorrow to get my car. For NO REASON. As if I needed another thing to do.

Always plenty of ways to be unhappy for someone determined.

[MaxedOut]

Yes, also a woman who has relationships with women. Not normal. And a toxic thing to do. I think there are some reels from professionals/lay specialists that responsibly provide examples of how things can *tend to* display differently between the genders (in heteronormative relationships). I've seen decent stuff on PDs (e.g., why more men are Dx'ed with NPD and women with BPD), trauma responses, relationship communication/needs that speaks to differences in an insightful way, typically relating to systemic gender marginalization, cultural gender role norms, etc. And that can be helpful to individuals. Usually the help is in understaingin their *own* stuff. When about partners it can *maybe* be helpful if respectfully done and respectfully presented as something to share with a partner.

She is using rando's gripe-reels as a weapon or way to defend her behavior. Which is not OK, not helpful, and doesn't prove any point (this is the internet and TikTok/Instagram reward reaction-activating content). Plus individuals are individuals, of course.

[SonofThunder]

Zad, in addition to Rebel's and Square's excellent examples in the double bind (lose-lose) you may want to keep in mind that choosing the compliance option is in itself a lose/lose for you and a win for the PD's feed of control, even if your compliance simply deescalates the designed test and you are rewarded for your compliance. 

Choosing compliance is not only a lose by providing the feed for the PD in the present situation, but it sets up the non for future losses. Choosing compliance in a double bind setup is incentive for the PD to continue crafting similar scenarios. If we are compliant in the current situation, will we be compliant each time the PD similarly repeats the scene?  Which future episode will we choose non-compliance and what will be our reasoning for that choice? 

It's imo much easier for us to recognize the double bind with our fast, sensitive radar and choose non-compliance at the onset, which does not incentivize.  If our radar does not indicate a drama triangle setup, but rather a valid situation, then its a much simpler matter of common sense decision-making and care. 

SoT

[zad7242]

Thank you, I needed this. Too many great insights to address one by one. But I'll be returning to this thread in similar situations.

W've already moved on to the next mess of me visiting my parents with the kids today. A once a month occurrence that really triggers my wife each time. After much arguing this morning she forbid me to take them. After I said I was leaving the house by myself  then, she relented and told me to take the kids.

[zad7242]

As a quick update. When I got home with the kids my wife restarted the argument, saying she can't believe I took the kids to see them after she set a boundary. She stormed out and called me a couple hours later continuing the argument and telling she is not sure she is coming home. She said she can't do it anymore.