Interesting therapy session….

[Liketheducks]

STILL unpacking the holidays.   Still trying to wrap my head around some of the comments my mother made, while also celebrating that I managed to pull it all off without drama.   

Quintessential parentified child here.   My mother was spouting some pretty outrageous stuff....picking apart other family members while we were alone...some of which were in the next room and could have walked in at any moment.  Though, she was being on her very best behavior with everyone else.   It was as if she was asking me to hold space for her emotions, by picking apart others.   

I was the product of a teen pregnancy, and possibly a date rape that she chose to marry.  I was a very different time.   My father answered all of this by turning violent and turning to drugs and alcohol.   I know now...some of this was reactive abuse...none of it was ok.   My counselor suggested that my mom is still trying to bond with me through shared trauma...by creating some.   Makes absolute sense.   I would deflect the comments she made and then she would come up with another FOE.  And, I'd try to deflect and make a joke.   

But still, we made it through.   I just wish it wasn't so effortful.   I mean, what I did was basic adulting.   I knew there could be emotionally charged situations, I prepared for them, I tried to make things easy on myself and others.   For crying out loud....I actually shared the load and did some delegating.   It is like, I have been doing the heavy lifting for SO long, that I just wish it felt easier.   My wonderful counselor suggested that the fact that I made it through, that I had some firm yes's and No's was a big step forward.   I really don't even like to recognize the effort of it (in many ways it seems petty...she is who she is...she's not going to change), except....it is effortful.   It is fatiguing.   

Still the idea that recognizing that my teen mom (I'm middle aged BTW and she's well into her late 70's) knows that we bonded through the shared trauma of my abusive father....and that's her go to....feels somewhat of a relief to see it for what it is.   I know she's doing her best.   Her best drives me crazy and also....I just can't be around that for very long.   But, PD or no, that's her go to.   Makes me sad for her and for us that this is how my mom feels connected to me...by a real trauma/drama or one that she holds in her psyche that she's created.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Liketheducks,

So much to process right? You're doing amazing work, I think this is really important work.

When I was able to look at my mother's life and what she decided to do with some of the experiences she had, it was hard work but it was worth it. I was able to see her PD and her trauma bonding behaviors which helped me to detach from her.

Sounds like you have a good therapist. Which is awesome.

Like you, I was parentified, and I also came to realize that the way my mother treated me, was toxic. My MIL is also problematic, but I could handle her for an hour, and then it is time to go home. One of the things my MIL started to do, was she started to pull me aside during family gatherings to do what your mom did - vent to me about other relatives. When I told my therapist this, she pointed out how unhealthy that is for my MIL to do that to me. At the time, I didn't even clock it as wrong! So good therapists are very helpful for that. I didn't realize my MIL did this, to trauma bond to me, but my therapist saw it accurately.

These women learned (subconsciously) that this is how they build closeness with other women, including their daughter or daughter in law. They never learned any other way of building a bond. It is incredibly sad when you start to realize how many women got this message, especially the older generations. Someone in her past may have trauma bonded to her, leaving her with the idea that this is how to bond with you. The lack of healthy bonding is all over my family tree when I started to realize oh, they didn't know anything else. They had trauma bonds, instead of healthy relating.

These realizations helped me to realize why I'll never be able to spend much time with women who seek the trauma bond instead of the healthy relating. Think about the word bondage. Why are they trying to go into bondage instead of healthy attachment? I had a therapist who saw this really well. That a lot of people in my life, sought to trauma bond with me, and this really confused me because I didn't know that is what they were doing. Once we realize this is what they are doing, it is still sad to realize it. I'll always wish that the women in my family knew how to relate instead of trauma bond. I really appreciate your post. It sounds like you did the right things and it's not easy to process all of this. Glad we have this forum.

Trees

[TimetoHeal]

Wow, I appreciate this thread so much.  I realize this is exactly the dynamic with the women in my family as well.

First of all, LiketheDucks, you are doing amazing. I agree it sounds like you have a great therapist.  It is frustrating and so hard that it takes so much work just to spend and hour or two with a person who SHOULD be one of our closest emotional supports, isn't it?  Sometimes, it makes me wonder if it's even worth it.  The answer to that changes in my mind from time to time, but I haven't come to the point of wanting to break all contact with my mom, and it sounds like you haven't either.  So, we do the best we can with what we have been given.  Yes, it sucks.  Yes it takes a lot of effort that it SHOULDN'T take.  But it is what it is. 

I'm so thankful for this thread, because I never really realized that was what my mom was trying to do with me - create a trauma bond.  I thought she was just "dumping" on me, and using me as a sounding board. And that may be part of it too.  But I think she genuinely wants a connection with me, and the only way she knows how is to try and "connect" over our "shared" woes.  As in "woe is us, we don't have a man to take care of us" (I'm divorced, she's widowed).  "Woe is us, we have the worst pain and health problems in the world" (we both have fibromyalgia and arthritis). "Woe is us, your brother doesn't care about us and does stupid things" (he actually has his own life).  She thinks she and I are basically one person.  It is maddening and sad.  The fact that I handle things differently and have different thoughts on things like being single, having chronic health issues, and my relationship with my brother is nothing less than threatening to her.  It's mind boggling, but it makes sense, sort of.  I remember that she was trauma-bonded to her mother exactly like this.  Their days consisted of complaining about their health maladies, gossiping about other people to make themselves feel better, and lamenting that it was a man's world (legitimately) and they were at their mercy.  It's very much a generational thing. 

Like trees, I can take so long of it, maybe an hour, and then it's time to go.  And a lot of processing and self-care afterwards. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Oh wowwwww this explains Grandma pulling me aside to complain about Grandpa, and my mother pulling me aside to complain about Grandma, and pulling my sisters aside to complain about me, and my sisters complaining to me about Mom and Dad...  Woe, woe, woe. Bondage for sure. It really was the only connection I could have with them!

[walking on broken glass]

This is revealing for me too! My mum always complains about other people and criticises them, and my response has always been 'why do we care what X does?' But it might have been her way of bonding. Sad

[treesgrowslowly]

Back when my MIL did that - pulled me aside during a visit, to talk about relatives, I was so shocked when she did it, I had no reaction or response except shock.

When I told my therapist about it, I mentioned it casually, not thinking there was anything to it. The therapist said 'wait, stop she did what?" and then focused on it and that is what got my attention. I didn't know this was something to pay attention to. There's the value of good therapy! The therapist said "that's not good that she did that to you". I had no idea it was important!

At the time, I was still baffled by the immaturity of all these people in my life. I kinda felt good that my MIL was finally talking to me in some sort of direct way, and sharing something beyond comments about the weather. My therapist was SO insightful to realize that this is an emotionally immature MIL, taking advantage of her DIL. Lindsay Gibson says that when we've spent time with an emotionally immature person, we come away feeling used, because the other person used us to get something they need psychologically. But they don't reciprocate.

Looking back now I can see it. I had many issues and experiences going on in my life, that my MIL never had time to hear about or pay attention to. She never asked about those. She never asked me how I felt. She never learned any details about my life at all. And the therapist knew this. When my therapist heard that MIL had started to pull me aside to dump on me like that, she knew that wasn't going to be good for me. My MIL might get what she needed - but at my expense.

And over time, as we know, this is confusing because with her dumping and trauma bonding to me - I was going to start thinking that she and I are 'close'. which sets me up for a fall because then eventually I will then go to her, expecting care and concern, and watch her walk out of the room which is what she did every time I tried to tell her what was going on in my life. When I think about letting her back into my life, I remind myself of this stuff I've already learned about who she is, and how she treated me. I'm grateful that we talk here about these common experiences.

Trees

[TimetoHeal]

Trees,

That is so insightful.  My mother is completely uninterested in anything going on in my life.  Never asks how I am doing, how my job is going, anything.  It's very hurtful.  I've learned not to share anything personal with her, because she will only have something very negative to say about it, and it makes me doubt myself.      A very one-sided relationship, and sad. 

[Skyward]

I relate to the act of them waiting until you're alone to either verbally attack you or be sarcastic about someone else in the family. I think it's also a 'divide and conquer strategy'. They want you to agree that the person they are attacking is an idiot.

I hadn't thought of the trauma bond explanation – that totally makes sense, but I also see it as a way of isolating a member of the family. My rule now is that I never speak with her unless she knows there's another person listening in to the phone conversation, and I make sure I am NEVER in a room with her alone again.

[LemonLime]

I think the single most-important piece of advice I would give my younger self:
Don't be alone with uPD sib.

The worst things that have happened have almost always happened when the two of us were alone.
Dark places, isolation, are a friend to PDsib.   Which means they are dangerous for me.

She also will rage in front of close family members.  Safest place for me is in groups, preferably groups that have at least a few strangers or not-immediate family.  Her behavior is best in front of those type of people who don't know "the secret" of her rages. 

Isn't it creepy?

[Cenerentola]

Like the Ducks, I'm glad you started this conversation.  It's been very helpful for me to read.

I always thought of my uPD parents' pulling me aside at family things as their way of "venting"; I think I need to go read whatever this forum has to say about trauma bonds. 

This from Like the Trees is especially reminiscent of how my parent liked to function.

I had many issues and experiences going on in my life, that my MIL never had time to hear about or pay attention to. She never asked about those. She never asked me how I felt. She never learned any details about my life at all.

In my case, my parent would sometimes ask about me, but it was always perfunctory; they would barely listen, sometimes even interrupting my answer, before digging into what was obviously the main course for them: whatever family problem was currently consuming their emotional attention.

For me the most significant wake up call was my (very good) FIL saying at a family table one evening, after a sightly negative conversation about an absent family member had just started, and he had made a relatively innocuous comment, "But we shouldn't keep talking like this." I was like, "You can do that?  Just stop taking about the Bad Thing Someone Did?" Mind.Blown.

[Liketheducks]

For me the most significant wake up call was my (very good) FIL saying at a family table one evening, after a sightly negative conversation about an absent family member had just started, and he had made a relatively innocuous comment, "But we shouldn't keep talking like this." I was like, "You can do that?  Just stop taking about the Bad Thing Someone Did?" Mind.Blown.

That is the kicker for me.   Listening to my mother get significantly worked up about how "bad" the "baddies" are in her life while trying to use this to bond with me....was  .   1. They weren't actually bad to her....and presumably they were bad because of a story she had told herself about them.   and 2.  Why?   Just to bond.    Gosh, there are so many more mentally healthful ways to connect with someone.   So many more ways to engage with people to pull them in closer.   I understand venting, and I've been known to vent to people on occasion...particularly my wonderful counselor.  But, the terms of the relationship with my counselor are different.   Venting or describing a difficult interaction I've had is kind of part of our agreement.    Not so much with my Mom.   I REALLY like what your FIL said.   Next time it pops up for me, I'm gonna use it.   What an elegant way of presenting this as a boundary.   No,  we shouldn't keep talking about that bad thing we think that person might have done nearly 40 years ago.   

[Sheppane]

This is such a great thread thank you like the ducks. Firstly thank you for sharing all this it sounds like you are really seeing this for what they are and have a lot to process.

I was also parentified to a degree - maybe not to an extreme level ( or maybe that's just me not seeing it). I was very attached to my father who used to say things like " I would die without you, what would I ever do without you". It was probably meant as an expression of love but as an adult now it is not something I would say to kids as I think I always felt responsible for his happiness. Im not sure if that is what is meant by parentified? My parents don't make much of an effort to contact me now as an adult or take an interest in my life which has always felt very strange as the intensity from being so "close" and parentified now leaves me with a very empty loneliness. Mom used to vent her woes about their relationship to me, as a child /teen/ young adult and in return my dad would vent to me also. All in a very sporadic fashion and inconsistent and then everything would be bright and breezy again. Which was very confusing. Yes they had their own inherited traumas too and maybe this was also a way of them "bonding" or feeling close to me. I think they just didn't have boundaries that told them it was not ok for a child /teen/ young adult to be drawn into these things, and feeling responsible for them. I never saw it at the time . I remember one time Mom ringing in the middle of the day and told me really inappropriate stuff about my dad (which to this day I still don't even know if it is true). I clearly remember that feeling of " oh no. What will I do to help here or to fix this" and feeling it was my job to emotionally support Mom. That was before a lot of therapy and looking back I am stunned that I didn't see it clearly and tell her that this was none of my business, highly inappropriate and not fair of her to be dumping on me. Maybe she didn't have good support systems in place for herself at the time , but I think that's the point exactly. She could have recognized that she needed support / therapy but instead had me. I'm not sure if that's trauma bonding exactly but I really relate to this conversation here.
Even writing this has made me realize why of course I feel empty and lonely as an adult when they don't contact me now ( I have posted about this elsewhere here). Its because once upon a time I was the best, the number 1 in the world, the centre of their universe as they told me. Now I'm just maybe ..irrelevant? I know there are all the reasons / excuses like they don't want to bother me etc etc as well as them embracing their ageing in a slightly needy way ( we are too old now ...) but actually they could contact me / show an interest if they really felt they wanted to. It's all the effort from my side now, or nothing. Thank you for this thread

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Sheppane,

I've come to realize there are two reasons why people don't contact us and make an effort to keep that relationship with us going.

The reason that covers most people in my family, and many people I've met, is that they don't initiate contact, to show concern for you, check with how you are doing, because that is mature behaviour. Plain and simple. It is maturity, to say oh I wonder how Sheppane is doing, I should call and check in.

Those of us who do that, take it for granted. We think oh, it's so easy, you just call or email them and see how they are doing. It is like doing math. Once you know how to do it, how often do you sit and marvel at the fact that you can add and subtract in your head? We just start having that skill, and taking it for granted. So our own maturity, we think others have that too. They don't. Some do. Many don't.

It is a sign that something is going on for that other person, because a healthy mature adult, will know how to stay in touch.

The second reason is their own mental health state. During and after 2020, I watched so many people 'check out' mentally. They could not keep track of nearly as much as they used to. This included their casual contacts that they barely thought about. Sadly, I think this is getting worse and worse and honestly, I look for people who are aware of this, so that I know that like me, they are putting in an effort to stay more with it and less checked out. Cause the forces and stresses all around us are making a lot of people 'check out'. There can be an immaturity there as well, since they are acting as if we're supposed to do all the relationship management for them (like a child would expect of us). I don't know how conscious of their own behaviours some of these people even are. Or if they are just going through the motions and not taking the time to think about the things you think about. How often do you hear the immature people in your life say to you "I was thinking about this over the last few months...". I mean, I never hear that. Unless it is something you did to them that they've felt victimized over. They never seem to sit and think about how to make their relationships better.

I'm at a point in my life where I am done with people who have immature reactions and excuses for me when I ask them to stay in touch. People over a certain age, should take responsibility and be honest. Just say "well I never think about calling you". At least that would be honest. Refreshingly honest and self-aware. Of course they can stay immature but I have no time for their games. If we are carrying the relationship for both people, we need to know why.  In some cases, as many of us here on the boards have said, it can be for a reason or for a season. And isn't it sad that we have so many family members who didn't grow up? How refreshing it would be to see more people start to take better care of their relationships.

Trees

[Liketheducks]

Sheppane and Trees....That brought up another interesting point for me.   I was definitely the GC and most definitely parentified.   Maybe it is an eldest daughter thing or some kind of tradition of who keeps the family connect??   The expectation in my FOO has always been that I be the one to reach out to keep in touch...that I be the one to host the family gatherings...that I be the one to turn to when a family member needs some kind of help.   My going NC/VLC put a slight damper on that, to put it mildly.   

With my mom, she simply expects me to call her on a regular schedule to check in....like she did with her mom.    And yet, when that conversation inevitably turns to how bad my sibling is or his wife....or her mother....why would I want to take all that on.   

One of the most impactful tenets I've taken from this forum is the FOG.   Am I reaching out out of fear, obligation, or guilt....or am I reaching out for another reason and REALLY diving into how that interaction or the need to reach out is making me feel.   In my FOO's eyes, I've become selfish and cold.   Truthfully, moving from where I was, with what I tolerated into a more adult state....it would seem selfish and cold to them.   I'm no longer taking on their world to fix.   I'm starting to have some semblance of emotional boundaries.   

So....many times for me....I'm not the first one to call anymore.   And, many times when they do call me....I check in with myself and see if I have the bandwidth to deal with what I know of those FOO members to be.   I'm not expecting them to change, but I am guarding my peace of mind much more fiercely.   She says as she's contemplating what we'll do for Easter.    Hang in there fellow travelers.   

[Sheppane]

It's funny how I forgot the F in FOG stands for fear!
Your reply liketheducks was timely as I was contemplating calling my mom today, not having heard from anyone in weeks. I feel this discomfort in my stomach and I know it is because I resisted the urge to call a few weeks ago, really just to test the water and see might someone call at least just to check in? But, predictably, no.
So here we go again.
I remembered today that feeling in my stomach is fear. Because when I do call, the response won't be " oh it's so good to hear from you, I'm sorry I would have called you myself but we've had a lot on etc". No it will be " hello ? Oh Sheppane. Yeah. Hi" and this awkward start to the call. And then I will probably hear a litany of woes. That's what usually happens. I say " so how are you?" And response is " sigh, yeah well, not great ...cue all the various". And that's ok, I get it, it may be true. But never ever does it reach a point of " anyway, what about you ". And if it does, which is rare, and I relay some news/ event or something I am struggling with...it is never really properly heard. It's like this weird game.
Sometimes the opposite happens - I call, and it's all fine or at least not super awkward. And then it's just all so confusing!

[walking on broken glass]

Hi Sheppane,

This resonated with me. I checked the duration of the last two calls with my mum: 1 minute and 10 secs and 1 minute and 4 secs respectively. I asked how she was doing, she told me about her ailments 'which are pretty much the same as last time', then she asked for the weather and conversation was over. At least now I get it. I get that she is unable to have a more personal conversation with me and I know that I shouldn't share any personal stuff anyway, because she relates everything to my sister and they dissect it together to draw the conclusions they want to draw. Before I had this realization I was struggling to make conversation and find topics she would be interested in and try to get her to talk to me. I thought it was my fault she didn't want to connect, that I was doing something wrong. I have given up now. While this is sad and frustrating, it is also some sort of liberation.

[Tribe16]

I remembered today that feeling in my stomach is fear. Because when I do call, the response won't be " oh it's so good to hear from you, I'm sorry I would have called you myself but we've had a lot on etc". No it will be " hello ? Oh Sheppane. Yeah. Hi" and this awkward start to the call. And then I will probably hear a litany of woes. That's what usually happens. I say " so how are you?" And response is " sigh, yeah well, not great ...cue all the various". And that's ok, I get it, it may be true. But never ever does it reach a point of " anyway, what about you ". And if it does, which is rare, and I relay some news/ event or something I am struggling with...it is never really properly heard. It's like this weird game.

This resonated with me. I checked the duration of the last two calls with my mum: 1 minute and 10 secs and 1 minute and 4 secs respectively. I asked how she was doing, she told me about her ailments 'which are pretty much the same as last time', then she asked for the weather and conversation was over.

Oh, I can so relate to this. I haven't spoken to Mom on the phone for almost a year. The last call was the night Dad passed away, but before that it was

Hi Mom, how are you?
FIIIIIIne.
Anything exciting happening?
Not really
<I then scramble to make some kind of conversation, can't be bad news or I'll get criticized and told other people in the world have problems besides me, can't be good news, or I'll be told in a sarcastic voice, "Oh well, aren't you the lucky one, I guess some people have the easy life.">
UM, how is your dog doing?
Seriously? You called about my dog? She's fine. What do you want?
UM, I'm just calling to check in, see how things are going.
Well I just told you. Anything else?
No Mom, I guess not. You sound busy so I'll let you go.
I am busy. I never get a break.
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope your day gets better. Bye.
BYEEEEEEEEEEE she said in a sarcastic over the top tone.

And that is why I hate talking to my mother on  the phone.

[Sheppane]

I'm sorry WOBG and Tribe that you also experience this. It is sad WOBG but I am glad it feels like some sort of liberation to see things really as they are. I get moments like that but I think the times the conversation goes well draw me back in. I suppose what I am saying is in my case the conversations are sometimes fine, but sometimes quite tense ( depending on what else is going on in FOO or if there is an emotional drama that I have decided not to involve myself with and then am "punished" with the awkward silences). There hasn't been one of those big dramas in a while so maybe I am in one of those better phases at the moment. But when I look at the long sweep of things all I see is that Mom never contacts me, it is all one sided.

Tribe I'm very sorry to hear that the way the call went. Uugh. Very toxic and hurtful and you are so right to protect yourself from that.

[Liketheducks]

I'm sorry that we're all experiencing this.   I'm so grateful for this forum.   
Since beginning this journey, I've learned that familial estrangement is SO much more common than I ever realized.   In particular, starting in my generation now in middle age.   The expectation of my FOO is so very different from what I expect from my young adult child.   It's almost as if the advent of birth control made having children so much more of a love choice rather than something that was expected.  I have friends who swear that their parents just don't like them.  My generation (gosh that makes me sound OLD) had children later in life with, I believe, more emotional intelligence and maturity.  My mother was expected to hold the family together, have a one sided relationship with her mother....do the reaching out.   And she expects that from me...that is what she was taught was normal...PD or no.   My husband's mother has that same expectation.   Whereas....if, as the mom, I want to chat with my son....I have no problem calling him.   I know that if he doesn't answer it is because he can't talk on the phone at that moment.    I really hope somebody somewhere studies this.   My mom lives in a senior community and swears that all her neighbor's children are estranged.   

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Liketheducks,

When I think about this, I can see how things kinda fell apart across the generations and people are all estranged now in my family. My parents generation had a lot of sense of obligation, so they kept doing their holiday gatherings, no matter what. But then the younger generation didn't like how we were being treated, and then we tried to change that and it went no where when there's a PD in the family who keeps things tied to the past - where people just meet out of obligation. It is the PD in the family who refuses to change. I've seen it in the families in my life. The PD won't change so people become estranged. I've watched the PD estrange from so many people, and then only the really enabling enablers are left at a certain point.

It's crazy to me that the PD will just not change and learn how to treat people better during the holidays. I think that is a big part of it. We don't want to take time off work and travel across the country just to be treated like crap for 3 days. But in the older generations, they felt obligated.

Trees