Subtly controlling behaviour

[walking on broken glass]

I made a (not very profound) realisation today.

I have this friend with whom we used to be close, but I have gradually drifted away and kept my distance, because she has some narcissistic traits. She can be funny and empathetic, but she has always been very competitive with me (we work in the same field), and made occasionally nasty comments, the kind that don't sink in immediately, but later on you reflect on them and think 'what was this all about?'. Anyway, I have kept her at a distance and we talk from time to time but I have stopped sharing stuff about work, which is her main trigger. In the past she had asked a common friend what I am working on just now, which was super awkward for the friend and put her in a difficult position, because she is very good friends with me but not with her, and she knew I didn't want to share. She answered vaguely and said something like why don't you ask her. Of course she never asked me directly.

Recently I was chatting with this friend and she casually mentioned a job that came up in our field in the place where I live. She said X told me that this job came up, do you know who got it? Now, first of all there is no way she didn't already know about the job a while ago, when it was first advertised, because she is in the same mailing list as me and avidly looks for jobs. She might have even applied for it. So she didn't just find out about the job from a third party, this is definitely disingenuous. Second, I think she probably found out that I applied and was shortlisted for the job (I didn't get it) but did not tell her at the time, and she was pretending to ask casually, out of interest, to see if I volunteer the information. I didn't let on and just said such and such got the job. She asked a follow-up question, I didn't react and she didn't pursue it further.

I have always been annoyed by people who are indirect and try to fish out information but I only just made the realisation that I am so allergic to it because it is so manipulative (and a regular occurrence in my FOO). If I found out something about a friend, that the friend hadn't communicated to me, I would think 'well, they must have their reasons not to share', I would respect their privacy and leave it alone. Even if she came out and asked directly 'I found out you had applied for that job, what happened?', it would still have annoyed me, but it would be more honest and I could answer directly. This feigning ignorance approach pushes all my buttons because the person clearly knows I have a boundary there, that I don't want to share but they don't care and they want to force me to abandon my boundary. They want to have the satisfaction that they prevailed. It's about power, control, and manipulation. And I hate it because it pushes my buttons and triggers my guilt and self-blame maladaptive mechanisms, as if I should be ashamed I am not sharing this with her. Somehow it only now just clicked why this behaviour is so triggering to me. She doesn't seek to connect; she seeks to satisfy her own curiosity. She also lacks the self reflection to ask herself why I chose not to share this with her. It's all about her needs and what she wants.

[notrightinthehead]

Walking, what stuck out for me in your post '  it pushes my buttons and triggers my guilt and self-blame maladaptive mechanisms, as if I should be ashamed I am not sharing this with her.' That for me is the most important realisation you have gained from this friend. That's what you can work on. That's what you can learn from this friend. That you have to convince yourself that you have a right to your privacy and not feel guilty about it. That you have a right to apply for jobs and not tell others about it. That your feeling guilty comes from a lack of self love, lack of self compassion, self respect. And that is where your work lies.

Trust me, I know. I used to go to a salon, always to the same hair dresser. Then I found I no longer liked the way she cut my hair. I wanted to change to another hair dresser at the same salon. The pains I went through! I only called on a Wednesday to make an appointment, only for a Wednesday, because this was the only day this first hair dresser did not work. This went on for month! Eventually I gave myself a stern talking to. Telling myself I had the right to choose who I wanted to cut my hair. I had the right, like everybody else to not use someone for a service, even if I had done before. And not apologise, feel guilty, be ashamed for hurting her feelings. This is a ridiculous small example, and it thought me how my own head cinema made something normal very complicated. And I still have to go to have my hair done on another day than Wednesday.

[treesgrowslowly]

WOBG,

I grew up in a family that behaved like this. It was awful. Disingenuous is a good word for it. Kinda drove myself a little nuts for a few years, because I wanted to know if they knew (aware, conscious) that they are petty and manipulative or if they just have no idea.

I like what Dr. Ramani says about people with narc personality styles - that we are seeking connection, they are seeking control. That made so much sense to me. Its like one person is on a completely different track with what the goal of this interaction is.

It sounds like this friend of yours, has picked up on your boundary, that you don't want to tell her about work. I spent years and years with relatives who would zero in on anything I had decided not to give them details about. The minute I decided I was going to have a boundary and not tell them about x, you can be sure they would pry and push me on x. Misery. It was all about pushing me around and trying to feel in control. It was like living with sharks.

Trees

[walking on broken glass]

thank you both!

NRITH, you are absolutely right. I have been getting better at this, and still learning and practising, not to feel guilty about putting reasonable boundaries and having a claim to privacy. Funny that you mention the hairdresser because I have a similar example about a hairdresser whose attitude I didn't like and stop going there for my haircut, but felt really embarrassed every time I passed the place (it was in my neighbourhood).

Trees, this has been my experience too. When certain relatives see the reluctance to share, they behave like hounds sniffing out their prey. It's sad and disgusting.

[notrightinthehead]

WOBG, thank you for making me chuckle. I can just see myself doing the same. 

[Prototypian]

Trust me, I know. I used to go to a salon, always to the same hair dresser. Then I found I no longer liked the way she cut my hair. I wanted to change to another hair dresser at the same salon. The pains I went through! I only called on a Wednesday to make an appointment, only for a Wednesday, because this was the only day this first hair dresser did not work. This went on for month! Eventually I gave myself a stern talking to. Telling myself I had the right to choose who I wanted to cut my hair. I had the right, like everybody else to not use someone for a service, even if I had done before. And not apologise, feel guilty, be ashamed for hurting her feelings. This is a ridiculous small example, and it thought me how my own head cinema made something normal very complicated. And I still have to go to have my hair done on another day than Wednesday.

Ha!  Not laughing at you.  Relaying something that I learned from a supervisor that I really liked, admired and still talk with.  I worked for a mega bank in applied math and my supervisor was a woman who led the risk analysis team.  She is a very sharp woman executive and cares about her hair in a healthy professional way.   She worked early, stayed late, had her teams back and never expected one of us to shoulder problems that she wasn't a part of when things rolled down from different parts of the world.  She also took her haircuts very seriously.  Her admin put them with blocks on her calendar so that she could make the appointments.   I'm a nerd geek male and my hair style and cut are not a concern as I go to a local barber and select the next available chair and assume whatever my hair looks like will be better than before.

She was talking with two others before  staff meeting about what to do...?   She had gone to a different salon and stylist and had her hair cut by someone else. 

But didn't like the way it was cut or something.   


I said, "just go back to the first one"

She and the other two people collectively gasped!   they said with concerned looks "you don't understand, going to another stylist is like getting a divorce or cheating on a relationship"

I said, "noooo, it's like going to a different car wash"

They laughed at me and let me just continue in my ignorance.

So I do understand what you are talking about in context of it sounds normal but as a middle aged male the situation doesn't pop up in my personal life!

Definitely no judgement.  I get it.

[bloomie]

walking on broken glass - what a great post and conversation you have shared with us!

For me, this discomfort you describe with keeping my personal information private, when pushed by another, is part of my default trauma response of fawning. And boy, was that response a gateway for pushy, intrusive, rivalrous, manipulative behaviors from certain people. I continue to work diligently to rewire my responses to healthy, adaptive, empowered.

When I began to grow into a reasonably good sense of what was mine - to share, to choose, to experience with others, I encountered push back like you describe from certain people in my life who seemed to believe they had a right to my life - including my resources. And it was gone about in such a way that was slimy and ick! Just ask already!!!! 

There was quite bit of leading and covert manipulation in hopes to make me uncomfortable enough I would give over what they seemed to believe they had a right to.  I had to look at what I had reinforced, unwittingly, in my oversharing at such prompting in the past as part of my trauma responses to dominating behaviors from people. 

There were times when the worst of the snoops would ferret out information I had chosen to keep private and like you describe, there was a kind of duping delight on their face when they would indirectly make sure I knew they knew these things that were intensely personal. A triumphant kind of behavior that I experienced as extremely off putting. What compounded the pain of this is they only knew these things because someone I trusted betrayed my trust. So, ouch all the way around on some of this!

Some people's behaviors are not mannerly and go too far and some people's behaviors are malevolent and harmful. Deep in our knower we know the difference. Ours is to be grounded and rooted in our own worth with a clear-eyed sense of what is ours to guard and protect without apology or self condemnation.

A question I have learned is helpful to ask myself in situations is: "What story am I telling myself?"
Often, I am telling myself I have agreed to something, or I owe someone something that I haven't and I don't. I often find clarity and release in that simple exercise.

And the salon and hairdressers... Oh, my word, you guys! Same!

I used to go to a salon, always to the same hair dresser. Then I found I no longer liked the way she cut my hair. I wanted to change to another hair dresser at the same salon. The pains I went through! I only called on a Wednesday to make an appointment, only for a Wednesday, because this was the only day this first hair dresser did not work. This went on for month! Eventually I gave myself a stern talking to. Telling myself I had the right to choose who I wanted to cut my hair. I had the right, like everybody else to not use someone for a service, even if I had done before. And not apologise, feel guilty, be ashamed for hurting her feelings.

 

[walking on broken glass]

Another post about the same friend.
She messaged me and asked to have a catch up over the phone. I really wasn't in the mood at the time, so I said I can't right now but I can maybe give you a call over the weekend? The weekend came and I still didn't want to talk to her, so I didn't call her and she didn't get in touch either. Today she messaged me with a piece of news she has zero interest in but in which she knows I am really interested. This is her way of saying 'hey, where are you? why didn't you call me?' and I truly resent it. It actually makes me talk to her even less. How do I respond to this?

[notrightinthehead]

Seems like you don't want to talk with that friend. Are you allowing yourself to give in to that feeling? Will you listen to your gut feeling?

[walking on broken glass]

Seems like you don't want to talk with that friend.

You are right. I never initiate conversation and I never take the initiative to call her first. It is strange because it's not that I don't enjoy the conversations when they happen, but this is not taken for granted, i.e. I don't always know beforehand whether the conversation will be enjoyable. Hence my trepidation. I've known her for a long time and we have things and friends in common, this is why I haven't cut off ties with her. I have watered down the relationship a lot (we speak perhaps 3 times a year or so, and we chat every now and then, which is fine because it's less high maintenance) but I don't think I am ready to cut off contact. This means, I guess, that I will be subjected to annoying and controlling behaviour from time to time, as I can't exactly train her not to do that (I know that very well!).

[Catothecat]

If she has to resort to circuitous ways to get you to communicate with her, I suspect she already knows you're pulling back.  It seems more like a last-ditch effort before she gives up, which I suspect she will.  It takes time and energy for her to think of ways to get you to respond.  Eventually she'll probably get tired of it.

I have a friend who I enjoy talking with and doing things with but would routinely try to draw me into doing something with her by doing "FYIs" via e-mail.  She'd find something she wanted to do but wouldn't just ask outright if I wanted to do it also.  Instead, she would send these FYIs without comment, or with a did-you-see-this? type of comment.  They were often not anything I was interested in but I knew she was.  After a few years of this, I finally stopped responding to these fishing expeditions.  She doesn't drive, so I know she was doing it because she didn't want to outright suggest we do something knowing I would have to drive if we did.  So she wanted to make it seem like it was my idea.  I got tired of this dysfunctional communication style and just started ignoring those types of e-mails.  Eventually she figured it out and stopped doing it. I guess the rather insulting thing about it was, she thought I wouldn't know what she was doing!  Go figure...(cause I can't!)

[walking on broken glass]

If she has to resort to circuitous ways to get you to communicate with her, I suspect she already knows you're pulling back. 

That's definitely right. But the problem is this has been going on for a few years now and she doesn't really care that I have pulled back - or perhaps she is telling herself that this has nothing to do with her and it's circumstances etc. If she wants to have a conversation, she will reach out to have the conversation because this is what she needs. She doesn't care that I don't initiate or seek her out. So I don't think she will stop contacting me. As long as it doesn't happen too often and it's not pressuring me, I am generally ok with it because I still get something out of the friendship.

Your friend sounds exhausting! Good thing she stopped her round about communication.