Fuzzy Boundaries around Getting Together

[Cenerentola]

I'm struggling a bit right now.  My uPD parent goes through highs and lows in our relationship (and with other relatives and friends) where little things bother them, they don't say anything, and then eventually they unburden in a burst of hurt feelings that smothers me in FOG.  Over the years I've gotten better at not engaging and grey rocking these conversations.  They'll withdraw when I grey rock and then we'll eventually get back together again, just like an on-again, off-again romantic relationship.

We just had one of those "breakup" talks in December.  uPD parent wanted to "work on the relationship" and specifically wanted me to agree with them on (mainly) ideological issues and wanted me to not have parties without them.  I said no, I was sorry their feelings were hurt, but I wasn't going to change my opinions or my behavior in re parties.  The result was withdrawal and silent treatment which slowly shifted into statements by uPD parent that "we need to work on our relationship."

Since my uPD parent has also regularly lamented not seeing enough of me and my children, I continued to extend regular invitations to get together, a few for individual days, a few for creating a couple regular get together days each month—which would be frequent enough to *help* fill uPD parent's attention cup but spaced out enough to give me time to process and recover and find my bearings again.  – My suggestions about getting together all went unanswered.

Meanwhile, uPD parent got sick, and then a couple weeks later an separate extended family crisis occurred; and I started getting invitations from uPD parent again: to come see them while they were sick, to come over on the weekend and hang out, etc.  I went to see them while they were sick and agreed to come over on the weekend, but I'm feeling a little sick emotionally about the whole thing right now.  I feel like I'm trying to be magnanimous and ... as a result uPD parent can call the shots (I invite—crickets; they invite—I show up).  And the small, angry child part of me is mad that they are "winning" this game.

I need a way forward where I can protect myself and that doesn't depend on their growing up.

If I am only available on the days I've proposed and turn down invitations for other things/days, it will precipitate accusations of being rigid and not wanting to spend time with uPD parent and speed up our next break up, and I get to deal with the full force of the FOG feelings sooner.

But if I am flexible and agree to get together when uPD parent proposes (assuming I don't have prior obligations) then I'm afraid I'm going to end up burning out by seeing them more often than is good for me.

If I try to split the difference and see them on days they suggest BUT only as frequently as I can tolerate it (about every other week one-on-one, plus about every other week with FOO) then I'm concerned I'll get blow back as well.  This has happened in the past.  E.g., uPD parent: "Today has been so fun!  How about we do X in five days?" Me: "Um ... I'll have to check the calendar."  uPD parent: "Well, if you're too BUSY to see me ..." *voice trails off sadly*.  And when this happens I have just sped up the clock that's ticking towards our next super fun break up.

Thoughts?!

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Cenerentola,

Welcome to the forum. I read your posts and what I'm understanding is that you want to find a way to manage your PD parent's requests and keep a relationship with them.

What you are describing, is not possible in every case, from what I have learned from being the adult child of emotionally immature parents, and in laws. And when a parent has some traits of vulnerable narcissism, I have learned that it is very hard to constantly cope with their behaviors towards us.

What you are doing, would work with any healthy, non-disordered human, parent or not. Saying "I'll check my calendar" should not cause a injury in someone, but in someone with a PD, then yes, you've now 'injured' them. By saying "I'll check my calendar".

What I've learned is that if a parent or other relative does not want me to individuate, and have my own schedule and let me say "I'll check my calendar", nothing I did, created the outcome that I needed. That was my experience. I tried and tried to remain in contact while managing my time and not just giving in to what they want, but in my case it was doomed to fail. They did not want what I could offer, and I could not offer anything else. What you are offering, would be more than satisfying for a non-PD, and yet with a PD, it isn't "enough".

Once I realized that what I could offer my IL's, was to see them x times a month, for x hours per visit, they balked. They really balked. Without any real conversation to talk about any of it, they did passive aggressive moves, to make sure I got the message that I am not in charge here - they are. So after realizing that I refuse to give them what they are asking me to give them (long visits that they control the timing and length of), we ended up estranged. I offered them what I could, and they didn't want it. They made their demands known (passive aggressively) and I refused to comply with their demands.

ALL they needed to do, was to accept that Trees visits us for 2 hours and then she goes home to rest. That is ALL I tried to adjust, and they left the relationship! So that's on them. The long long visits, were not good for me.

So others here can share about what they've experienced with this.

We can't give these people what they are asking of us because it's not good for us. You know this, and so in my view, you can see if your PD parent can adjust to what you are offering, or not and in my experience, when we try LC with them, when it doesn't work, it is because LC is about you doing what is good for you, and that pisses them off. When LC does work, I suspect that it works with parents who are willing (for whatever reason) to let you have that ability to say "I'll check my calendar".

Some of us have relatives like that and some don't. My PD parent pushed and pushed and pushed for me to give more of my time than I could give, and so I got tired of being pushed around and I had to go NC since they could not adjust to my LC. Someone with less PD traits could have accepted my offer (I agreed to see them once a month, because that is all my nervous system could handle). But for someone with a lot of narcissism like my parent, nope. They could not let me call the shots. It didn't even matter what my boundary was, it was that I had the audacity to have a boundary with them that upset them.

Trees

[Cenerentola]

Thank you, Trees, for a well-thought-out reply.

What you are doing, would work with any healthy, non-disordered human, parent or not. Saying "I'll check my calendar" should not cause a injury in someone, but in someone with a PD, then yes, you've now 'injured' them. By saying "I'll check my calendar".

This is an apt description of what I've witnessed with my parent.  It may also relate to a more general scheduling habit wherein they need to run the events.  In the past couple months I have attended all five events/meals that uPD parent proposed; they showed up a couple hours late for one (1!) of the five things I suggested.  It feels to me from these actions that if uPD parent didn't start it, it's not worth their effort/time.  This behavior is not limited to me: it's something that my siblings and my spouse have also noted.  And it reminds me of your description of your in-laws' attempts to control your visits as well.

It sounds like it must have been a painful process for you to go through that individuation with your in-laws.  I'm glad you're in a spot now where you have achieved some stability (albeit from a distance).

I'm really struggling with this because there's a part of me that feels that "all" uPD parent wants is for me to give them just a little more of myself.  But I know when I've done that in the past, I end up so wretchedly tired and angry ... that I don't think I should give more.  And I also know from the past that there's no limit to the "more."  Both my parents have stated that they would love to live next door to us and see us every day ("popping in and out all the time" was uPD parent's description) and to me that is an indication of how very enmeshed their vision of an "ideal" family is.  I know intellectually that this isn't ideal; and I know from my own reactions to uPD parent's voice and physical presence that I need a certain amount of space--both for my own sake, and, to be 100% honest, for the sake of my husband and children, who have to put up with me being distracted and tired and short-tempered after dealing with my FOO.  And yet--uPD parent is full of nostalgia for the days when family was the center of everything (1955 I believe?) and thinks that it is so important for families to stay together in these "immoral" modern times.

I badly want to tell uPD parent that they are the problem ... and I can't.  I can't both because it runs against my values of treating others with kindness, and because I know pragmatically that it *will* have negative repercussions for my relationships with other family members. The whole situation feels incredibly unfair ... which feels like a very whiney complaint in the grand scheme of things (and sounds eerily like uPD parent's complaints), but there it is.

Thanks again, Trees.  I will have to chew on this.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Cenerentola,

I too, was raised to believe that that model of family was ideal - popping in and out of each other's homes as if we are one big supportive social network. The problems come when there are people who are too narcissistic or emotionally immature, to really 'pop in and out' without causing problems for people. Which is what you and I may have in common - parents who can't really understand how they affect us. And they probably never will understand this about themselves.

In the vast sea of online videos, I have found a few that have really helped and come from people who consistently make solid points about our family systems. One person is Jerry Wise. In his videos he talks about the family system, and why we don't feel good when we spend time with parents who have such self-absorbed behaviors with us. (and like you said, it is not just with you, they are like this with others too).

I really appreciated what Jerry Wise says in his videos, about what I felt when I tried to go along with the family ethos - the one you are describing as well. That we are obligated to keep this going, even if we are not feeling supported and we are worn out when we return to our own family (our spouse, our kids) after visiting with PD-type relatives for too long. It took me a while to realize that my family wanted to keep up this enmeshment, which wasn't good for me or my own family. Like you said, you are worn out when you get back. You're not alone. A lot of us here have had that experience of feeling worn out when we get back from dealing with our parents. 

Trees

[TimetoHeal]

Hi, Cenerentola,

Your uPD parent sounds a lot like mine!  She turns down invites that I extend to her, but expects me to jump when she wants me to do something for her.  You are absolutely correctly in calling it what it is:  a game.  A game that they must win at all costs. 

Since you are trying to maintain a relationship with your parent, and I am in the same boat currently, I will give you the same great advice I have been given on these boards.  You will have to set your boundaries and stick to them, and then how the other person reacts is their business, period.  Yes, you will get blowback.  Yes, they will act like a 3 year old in a grown person's body.  Yes, you will feel anxious and guilty and even scared.  But part of coming Out of the FOG is learning to sit with these feelings and realize that they will not kill you. 

I am happy to say, this is "mostly" working with my mother.  She still does her passive-aggressive BS, such as saying, "Oh, I thought you had moved out of town", when I call her after what, to her, is much too long. But I am learning to just either ignore or laugh it off and move on.  I tell her exactly when I can come by, when it's convenient for me, and I always make sure I have something planned after ward (even if made up), so visits don't go on longer than I want them to.  I've quit issuing invitations to her, because I know the answer will be "no", so why bother?

Remember, you are the only person you can control, not your uPD family member.  So, your boundaries are for YOU, not to control them.  You can try to predict how they will react, but you can't control it. 

[Cenerentola]

Trees, I liked this:

I too, was raised to believe that that model of family was ideal - popping in and out of each other's homes as if we are one big supportive social network. The problems come when there are people who are too narcissistic or emotionally immature, to really 'pop in and out' without causing problems for people. Which is what you and I may have in common - parents who can't really understand how they affect us. And they probably never will understand this about themselves.

Yes, this is the sad thing--there are people I know who (close friends who are stable) whom I wouldn't mind having this relationship with, because there can be a back-and-forth with no hard feelings.  Not the case for my parent, so much.

I saw another recommendation for Jerry Wise not too long ago!  I have found the videos I've watched really helpful.  In fact, I've been using them as sort of centering devices, listening to one before and after I see my parent.  It's helpful for giving me another voice in my head countering the guilt-tripping voice in my head, especially when I've just been or am about to be in contact with the original guilt-tripping voice.

Time to Heal, it's reassuring to know my uPD parent is not unique!  (Depressing too in another way, perhaps, to know that there are MANY people like this.)

You will have to set your boundaries and stick to them, and then how the other person reacts is their business, period.  Yes, you will get blowback.  Yes, they will act like a 3 year old in a grown person's body.  Yes, you will feel anxious and guilty and even scared.  But part of coming Out of the FOG is learning to sit with these feelings and realize that they will not kill you.

This makes so much sense.  And I am happy for you, to hear that it is "mostly" working in your relationship!  ("I thought you had moved" is one of those lines that would be hilarious in a sitcom but in real life, ouch.  I feel like there is a lot of that, with PD relatives: these are the origins of so much humor as long as it is fictionalized.)

Little update here: my uPD parent has become very contrite again, which is something I've gotten to see in them before: saying they can't do anything but make mistakes, they're sorry, they're realizing how much their own FOO hurt them, they had actually blocked a lot of those memories until recently, they were so mean to me, etc.  AND as part of these interchanges they also agreed readily to the days I'd proposed for getting together.  Oooooonnnn the one hand, want to accept that this may develop into a new leaf.  On the other hand, I've seen this before, which makes it feel like a hoover.  I'm trying very hard not to resent their attempt at a do-over.  It feels icky.  And I feel like I'm already staring down the barrel of the next discard.

[walking on broken glass]

Hi Cenerentola,

You are very wise not to trust your parent's apologies. It is just a ploy to drag you in. Soon they will have another outburst, will discard you again and the cycle will continue. They might even be sincere in thinking they have acquired awareness and that they will change. But it won't last. I agree with time to heal: think what you are able and willing to offer and stick to your boundaries, no matter the fall out. The more you cave, the more they push. It is a game of control for them. As someone who has strived and fought to keep a 'balance' in the family for many years, I can tell you it's impossible and not worth the fight.

[Cenerentola]

Hi Walking on Broken Glass,

Thank you for the reinforcement.    Last night I was feeling bad because part of me feels like not being open/normal with my parent is failing to give them a second chance (actually a tenth or fiftieth chance, but whatever).  This morning I realized that by staying in the relationship I *am* giving them another chance -- even though staying in means also sticking to my boundaries (keeping my cards close, only getting together in small doses).  It's hard to see the full picture at any given time.  Thanks for the support.

[NarcKiddo]

The only way I can cope with visiting my parents is fairly frequently (they live quite close) but for short periods of time. Max 4 hours generally twice a month.

My mother has tried various tricks in the past for getting more attention, usually over a longer period such as overnight. I simply refuse. Fortunately I live close enough that I can generally avoid an overnight quite politely and plausibly.

In the past she has asked me to suggest dates for getting together and I would suggest x or y date. She would then say all enthusiastically "let's do both of them" and I would then have to find a way to back out. A bit hard given she knew I was free both dates since I was proposing them. I would generally tell her I had to schedule something else but was putting her first, so she got to choose x or y but I needed the other day for the other thing. Now I simply suggest a single date. If that does not work for her I suggest another until we find one she can do.

If faced with the plaintive "If you're too BUSY to see me" (how annoying that must be!!!) I would say something like "Yes, I am busy but I am not too busy to see you. However I don't want to mess you around by agreeing to a date we then have to change. So I will get back to you when I have checked my calendar." Of course I have my calendar on my phone and could check there and then but I don't tell her that.

Others have commented that you can only control your own behaviour and that you cannot predict how they will react, although you can obviously make an educated guess. If you are worried about blowback I think it makes sense to plan out roughly how you will deal with any predicted blowback and then stick to your plan. Your boundaries are for you to create and enforce.

Good luck.

[blacksheep7]

Funny how these Pds have the same phrases without knowing each other.

I thought you moved out of town.

I live in eastern Canada and she said to me «it's like you live in California»  I wish!   This was before cell phones when we had to pay long distance calls.

I would call her every two weeks, not more. Boundaries. And every time her greeting  «no news is good news» would make me shake my head   never a «hi (my name), how are you? Always the same passive aggresive remark, still to this day apparently. She loved provoking and sarcasm.

A thousand paper cuts got to me.

Take care.


NarcKiddo@ visiting your parents twice a month, max 4 hours is very good! As a parent I would not complain, on the contrary. I only visited once a month.

[Liketheducks]

Cenerentola.....rabid opera fan here.  I LOVE love your name:).  No, I'm not available that day....is a perfectly acceptable response.   I too was raised with the expectation that we'd all just barge in and out of each other's homes with no respect for the host's schedule, feelings, or privacy.   Tried it for a few years, and it just wasn't feasible with the dynamics of my family.   When I stated that my alcoholic sibling prone to physical and emotional rages would no longer be welcome in my home until he had experienced several months of sobriety....well, it went over like a lead balloon that I just couldn't "get along".   Sorry, no longer up for debate.

It is perfectly reasonable for you, as an adult separate from your FOO, to have a full and fulfilling life outside your relationships with your FOO and they to have the same.   No one person should be the end all be all emotional support for another.   

It took years of banging my head against my family dynamic...turning from golden child who would literally do anything the family asked to scapegoat as SOON as I enacted any form of boundaries.....before I could really own saying "I'll have to check my schedule".   Just be prepared for backlash...and understand that in a normal adult relationship this would be a perfectly acceptable response.  "This is what I'm able to do" became my go to response. 

For me, it takes some serious strategic planning to be around my FOO at all.   How long, what do I need to do for aftercare, and planning/practicing scripts of what I'll say in the event that I get what I call "hammered"...are key for me. 

It took a period of NC for me to realize that what was being asked of me was unreasonable not just for me, but for any adult.   Hang in there.

[Cenerentola]

Narc Kiddo, thank you for that strategic outline.    Is helpful to see what has worked for others -- and I really like the line "Of course I'm busy, but I'm not too busy to see you." When my parent invokes business it tends to make me feel defensive (even though I've long stopped trying to defend my choices).  I guess that's a sign that some internal work is still needed.

[Others have commented that you can only control your own behaviour and that you cannot predict how they will react, although you can obviously make an educated guess. If you are worried about blowback I think it makes sense to plan out roughly how you will deal with any predicted blowback and then stick to your plan. Your boundaries are for you to create and enforce.

Yes, I can't control it, but expecting blowback sooner or later is reasonable and figuring out how to insulate myself emotionally feels important -- which I guess is still a boundary for *me*, even though it takes into account their expected behavior?

[Cenerentola]

Black sheep 7, that sounds so frustrating! And a bit familiar.

A thousand paper cuts got to me.

I hope you've been able to heal some of those with space
...

[Cenerentola]

Like the Ducks, yes, I love that opera! (And opera in general.) Great version for free on YouTube with Frederica von Stade (1980, Milan I think).

For me, it takes some serious strategic planning to be around my FOO at all.   How long, what do I need to do for aftercare, and planning/practicing scripts of what I'll say in the event that I get what I call "hammered"...are key for me.   

This is where I am.  Complicated life, lots of practice needed to actually wrap my head around how I need to respond in a way that matches my sense of dignity/self worth/values while my parent is, as you put it, hammering.  (Also a *former* gc here.)

I'm glad you were able to get to a safe spot with your sibling!

[NarcKiddo]

Yes, I can't control it, but expecting blowback sooner or later is reasonable and figuring out how to insulate myself emotionally feels important -- which I guess is still a boundary for *me*, even though it takes into account their expected behavior?

I think that makes sense. I do that a lot, although I also tend to have a habit taking up too much time thinking through every possible scenario so I feel prepared. And then my mother does something I have not thought of. 

Anticipated behaviour brings to mind something that has helped me enormously so I am going to mention it even though it does not strictly address your specific issue. It is the "observe, don't absorb" technique. Essentially you approach any encounter as if you were a research scientist observing behaviour. Your job is to notice all known aspects of tiresome behaviour. During any encounter with the PD person you look out for the complaints, accusations, emotional blackmail etc. You can equip yourself with an imaginary white coat and clipboard if it helps. Each time you spot something, you make a mental note and tick it off your imaginary list. If a new version comes up you add it to your list for next time. I find the observation technique creates emotional distance so you are better able to respond to problems on the spot. And even if the encounter is thoroughly awful you are bound to have ticked off an awful lot of bad behaviour on your list and can congratulate yourself on your correct predictions. I know it sounds a bit basic, and maybe silly, but I have been surprised how helpful it is. In fact I now have a notice pinned up saying "observe, don't absorb" to remind me when I take one of her calls.

[TimetoHeal]

Funny how these Pds have the same phrases without knowing each other.

I thought you moved out of town.

I live in eastern Canada and she said to me «it's like you live in California»  I wish!   This was before cell phones when we had to pay long distance calls.

I would call her every two weeks, not more. Boundaries. And every time her greeting  «no news is good news» would make me shake my head   never a «hi (my name), how are you? Always the same passive aggresive remark, still to this day apparently. She loved provoking and sarcasm.

A thousand paper cuts got to me.

Take care.


NarcKiddo@ visiting your parents twice a month, max 4 hours is very good! As a parent I would not complain, on the contrary. I only visited once a month.

It is crazy, isn't it, Black Sheep?  Are you no No Contact now?  Sorry if I missed that.

[blacksheep7]

TimetoHeal,

It is crazy, isn't it, Black Sheep?  Are you no No Contact now?  Sorry if I missed that.

I am nc, eight years in May.

[TimetoHeal]

TimetoHeal,

It is crazy, isn't it, Black Sheep?  Are you no No Contact now?  Sorry if I missed that.

I am nc, eight years in May.

Thank you! 

[SpiritedChange]

Since my uPD parent has also regularly lamented not seeing enough of me and my children,

I continued to extend regular invitations to get together

My suggestions about getting together all went unanswered.

It seems to me that your parent may not actually be sincere in her/his lamentations. What do you think?

[Cenerentola]

Spirited Change,

It seems to me that your parent may not actually be sincere in her/his lamentations. What do you think?

I think they are sincere in wanting to see the version of me from my teens that was flattering and enmeshed, and the (hypothetical) version of their grandkids that would be a repeat of that.  I think they keep expecting me to show up the way I was 20 years ago.