Gratitude

[Deby64]

How to you show gratitude or give words of affirmation to the UpdnH, without it being used against you in the future. Not even sure if the words will be received in the manner of love I'm attempting to convey 🤷🏾�♀️I am doing well not walking on egg shells, yet unsure how to show love and stay safe from the wrath that can come at any freaking time. This is such an awful life I've chosen for myself. Needing to check my thinking before being my authentic self, because I choose a life with a sick, untreated individual. Not meaning to sound like a victim. Just sad and tired. Thanks for being here.

[square]

Hey there Deby,

No need to beat yourself up about the situation you're in. You are doing a lot to work on yourself and make yourown choices.

Can you give more information about how your husband usually uses your appreciation against you? I can brainstorm some ways he might do so, but it makes more sense to tailor our responses to your situation.

[Call Me Cordelia]

So, as Square mentioned it's hard to give specific advice without too many specifics. However, you appear to be looking to manage your husband's behavior here. Is that accurate? How can you show appreciation in this just-right way that is weaponization-proof? How can I say the right words that won't be thrown back in my face? This is a really hard thing, because you can only control you, and disordered people are well known for responding to things in a way that makes very little sense, even to people who have already spent way too much time trying to figure out their patterns and mitigate the fallout of their disorder. I so appreciate this because we have ALL done this just to get by in our lives. The difference is now you have this awareness of the dynamic that you couldn't have had at the time of your marriage. Could there be a more powerful reframe of, "This is an awful life I've chosen for myself?"

[Deby64]

Thanks for the response. If I tell him he's doing an awesome job keeping the yard maintained. A few fights later, he'll say, you see how hard I work to please you, you said it yourself. I work hard to beautify our home and you don't appreciate it. If I same, I'm so grateful to have a husband with so many creative gifts, he'll later say, you need to recognize what you have and stop being disrespectful to be, just trust me and follow my lead. I've never hurt you. This man doesn't see his part in any of the strain in this marriage. It's all my fault for being a strong woman and not being submissive and following his lead. Not realizing he makes no solid decisions and lives in a world of delusional thinking. If I don't take the lead, we most likely would be in a ditch. He often brings up mistakes I've made over 20 years ago. I've asked forgiveness for my wrongs and haven't repeating the behaviors, yet I continue to hear about them as if it happened yesterday. I've gotten really good and not defending myself or responding to them, it's just emotionally draining. In one breath he'll say, maybe we've out grown each other and it's time to separate. When I agree and make plans to separate, he'll come back with you always want to run from situations, you don't know what true love means. You stay together and figure stuff out🤦🏾
I could go on and on about the craziness of my life. Hope this gives some insight into what I was talking about. Once again the life I choose. One point made gave me a spot of hope. I didn't have this awareness when I married him, even though he always tells me, he hasn't change. He's the man I loved and married 40 years ago. He's correct, I just didn't see it💔

[square]

Your husband will weaponize anything he can to achieve his ends, so there isn't any special way for you to express appreciation or anything else without the possibility that he'll try to use it against you later.

The thing is, he doesn't care if it's true or logical, he only cares if it works.

So what you can do is be unfazed by it. If you get caught up in hurt and defensiveness and confusion, his strategy works. Now he's changed the subject and got you squirming instead of him.

If you're just like "uh huh" then it isn't really effective.

In your yard work example, I'm guessing you may have asked for him to do something and he reacted by saying you are unpleasable. It's funny because he literally uses your appreciation to "prove" you don't appreciate him, lol.

You could smile and say calmly "I do appreciate it, honey, that's why I said so." This is not a magic response, he won't just fold, he'll double down on how unappreciative you are. But he'll do that precisely because he will feel his tactic not working on you. You can then just try to keep to the subject - your subject. "The yard looks lovely, but we still need ___."

If you say "that's not true," he'll feel like he's won because now the subject has changed. He can comfortably argue all day about how ungrateful you are, because he doesn't have to have logic on his side, just rhetoric. As long as you engage in his preferred subject (your ungratitude) he can avoid what he doesn't want to discuss (the thing you asked him to do).

I don't think you need to change anything in how you express appreciation.

[square]

Also, CMC said better what I was feeling about you talking about your choices, asking if there is a more powerful framing for that.

I'm sure you have your reasons for staying and we are not here to judge you for doing so.

Those reasons might change, and if they do, that's okay, and if they don't, that's okay too.

Here is a possible powerful reframe:

"I am learning a lot and hoping that I might be able to get to a point where I feel happy enough to stay with him. I do love him and I know relationships are complicated. It's not been good enough yet, but I do feel a little less broken now, so I'm going to keep trying and see if it can work well enough."

[Queenfrog]

Hi, Deby64 -- Once again your post is so, so familiar to me. Big difference is that my updh is a major "control freak" who insists on taking the lead on absolutely everything.

What I do is try to express appreciation for him whenever it feels genuine to do so. I think it has improved the foundation of our relationship just a bit. Maybe he whines a bit less about his role in our household / economic unit, because he knows I see and appreciate it. Maybe his ego is bolstered in a healthy way when I remind him that I do respect him and his skills/talents, even though we fight a lot.

At least it makes me feel a bit better. They're always saying we should practice gratitude, right? It's for our benefit, not necessarily that of the one being thanked or complimented. Yes, he can weaponize your statements of gratitude or compliments. My thinking is that he's going to say those horrible things regardless of what you say or do.

I'm interested in the comments here about the "awful life I have chosen for myself." I could use help with that too! I've been kicking myself and feeling terrible about it a lot lately. I don't feel less broken (yet), really. I feel like I'm still trying to learn about just how broken I really am. Nothing new there, but I suppose it's all part of coming "Out of the FOG."

Hang in there, friend!

[MaxedOut]

Your husband will weaponize anything he can to achieve his ends, so there isn't any special way for you to express appreciation or anything else without the possibility that he'll try to use it against you later.

The thing is, he doesn't care if it's true or logical, he only cares if it works.

So what you can do is be unfazed by it. If you get caught up in hurt and defensiveness and confusion, his strategy works. Now he's changed the subject and got you squirming instead of him.

 

I found more internal peace recognizing there is no magic navigation, it's usually not about the thing being discussed, and my decisions should go back to my own internal compass. Affirm what I would in other relationships and what is important to me, and don't fake affirm stuff to prevent reactions. On balance it probably ended up being about similar in affirming behaviors but brought me much more into myself instead of feeling in orbit and making current actions based on largely unpredictable future reactions.

As mentioned there are various ways to manage the accusations in the moment (another is "that's a different t subject than what we are discussing. I am happy to have that conversation another time but I want to talk about X now." But literally the most important part is about us and not getting swept up in JADE or emotion when they start scattershooting accusations.

You may find, as I did, that if you don't get hooked, your spouse will keep firing different accusations trying to get something to stick. It's pretty revealing in really seeing what is happening and why. If you can get a little higher in mental altitude as partly an observer of the interactions and less of a participant in your mindset (metacognition), you'll start to see more of the patterns and that the specific words/topic changes are really not important, it's the effect the PD is aiming for and/or just triggery emotions manifesting in some sort of specific topic.

Son of Thunder recommends viewing things in terms of the Karpman Drama Triangle which is a good/revealing framework that also helps you "gain altitude" on interactions and not get hooked.

[Deby64]

Wow, everyone's support and suggestions are truly a blessing. I love this reframe. I need to internalize this one.
"I am learning a lot and hoping that I might be able to get to a point where I feel happy enough to stay with him. I do love him and I know relationships are complicated. It's not been good enough yet, but I do feel a little less broken now, so I'm going to keep trying and see if it can work well enough."
I know I'm growing and healing because I react less and less to his spurring. I watch him go from subject to subject looking for me to defend myself, not happening in my head I say "This is not about me, he's projecting". Next time I'm gonna say are you asking or projecting? He good at telling me " I know you are disgusted with me", I usually don't respond. Next time he says that I'm responding. That's what angers me more than anything. Him telling me what I'm thinking or feeling. True projection and I just let it flow. Not anymore.
The healing I receive from this group is saving my soul🙏🏾🙏🏾

[square]

EDIT: I may have misunderstood - you might have meant that next time you'll say to yourself, not him, if he's asking or projecting. If so, sorry, ignore below and carry on with what you are doing!

—-

By all means, remind yourself that he is projecting. But don't tell him that.

He will turn it back on you and pretty soon he'll be telling you that everything you say is projection.

You're not looking to score any points, here, or shut him down. Your goal is just to not engage with his game. Saying "you're projecting" will feel to him like a point scored on him, and he will go to all lengths to reverse that score.

It's really infuriating to be told what you're thinking or feeling, so I totally get why you want a response. My husband did this a couple of times, and the reply I settled on was "well, that's your opinion."

He would not like that and would assure me it was a stone cold fact. I think at this point there is a big danger of it turning into an Argument ("opinion!" "fact!" "opinion!") so you'd want to be very very careful to totally disengage here. I got away with saying "ok" in a "let's just move on" tone and walking out. YMMV.

Another thing I've said a couple of times is "do you really think so?" or "do you really believe that?" Only reserved for dire cases of feeling like my mind was bending. Sometimes I just needed to say something out loud to maintain my rights to my own thoughts.

[MaxedOut]

 
A hug thing that just got worse over time was my ex telling me what I think, feel, believe, etc. and being completely stubborn about it and unwilling to actually ask or listen to anything contrary. She eventually started developing sort of ridiculous countermoves to me saying things like "that's your opinion" or perception.  Ore than a few times I ended the conversation after saying o won't continue discussing it if she just continues telling me what I feel and think.

A couple of times I said something like "well, you clearly think you know what I believe and feel. And me telling you what I actually feel or think makes no difference. I guess you have it all figured out and there's no point in me continuing this chat." That did seem disarming enough to sometimes recalibrate or create a better vibe after a break in the convo.

[Deby64]

Square, your understanding was correct. My intention was to say that to him. Yet, once again all the experience, strength and hope from the feedback has me rethinking my approach. It was once again one of those moments where I was feeling like this will surely open his eyes. My lack of acceptance is getting in the way. I have to keep my eye on the big picture. Protect my peace and I now see where that comment could stir the pot and cause yet another argument. I'm just gonna say it to myself. Keep with my normal responses of ok, or do you really think that. Learning to detach with love is a hard lesson to internalize. The last few days I've been unmotivated and feeling depressed. He's new attack of course is, " You need to get up and do something, you're hurting yourself just laying around". Of course he has zero understanding that I'm physically, mentally and emotionally drained and struggling to live. Crazy part is he's right I should push through this and fight, I just don't want to hear 💩from him. Good or bad. This too shall pass I know, the struggle is real today.

[Mary]

I am so encouraged by this thread that others understand my life. Like I could have written your initial question verbatim, Derby64, and comments from others. A couple of things stood out to me. We can detach with love. Wow. I am so happy to see others working on this. So many people want you to just chunk it all, and don't recognize the fallout or what you would lose. Another comment someone made was, "...he doesn't have to have logic on his side, just rhetoric." Now THAT is a great reminder. I can be a bystander and watch the rhetoric without taking on the angst and guilt.
Mary