The way out

[GoodPesto]

Good morning,

for the last decade I've been coming back to this forum whenever I felt the need, e.g. to read from others in similar situations, to refresh my memory of typical traits, or tools to handle difficult situations. A couple of days ago I registered to have a place to reflect. I suffered from (c)PTSD with all its tough symptoms for years and am happy to have regained important parts of my health. After my unPD-mother had left after a 24h visit last week, the first in years, I could feel the negative effect of her presence on my well-being very clearly. Suddenly I felt the weight of depression again, suddenly I was tired like nothing, suddenly I felt small and unfit for the world again. A heartfelt no to this. There are no words how hurtful this visit was.
What I am struggling with at the moment is that I cannot just go n/c like I would want to. It would create a backlash that would most likely lead to an ugly fight or even more contact. She is sensitive though and has already picked up on my withdrawal. A short kept call this morning confirmed this.
I find it very hard to not JADE because it seems to be asked with every turn in the conversation. How do I respond instead, I am lacking imagination. It's about simple things like why I haven't answered the phone but goes on and I wonder what would be left if I didn't JADE at all. How often can "I don't know what to say?" be repeated? How is it possible to cope with faking ligh-hearted conversations when your heart is in truth heavy and hurting?
Does anyone have ideas or experiences that might be worth trying?

[walking on broken glass]

Hi Good Pesto!
I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I understand the difficulty of establishing no contact. I am in a similar position myself. You are saying that no contact would create backlash that would lead to a fight and more contact. But what if you went no contact and blocked your mother from all communication? What if you don't give her the opportunity to fight? You are 100% entitled to do that to protect yourself. You don't owe her any explanation.

I am saying this just to show you that there is a way not to deal with backlash if you go no contact: this is what no contact means, you are banishing this person from your life. However, it is absolutely fine if you don't feel ready to embark on that. You can go very low contact. Don't answer her phone calls or messages for days. When you do get in touch and she asks you, say 'I was busy'. If she insists on asking the same question, change the subject or say 'is there anything else? I have to go'. Remember that she has no claim on your time! Use the Gray Rock and Medium Chill tools in the toolbox area of this website.

You don't have to cope with faking light-hearted conversations. You can opt not to have them. I know it's easier said than done, and I repeat this also for my own benefit, because I find myself caught in the same dynamics. But please remember that she has no power over you. You have power over you.

[TimetoHeal]

Hi, GrestPesto (love your username!)!

I agree with everything WOBG says. I'm in the same predicament myself, not quite ready to go completely NC with my mother, but navigating how to handle the low contact that we do have.  The best advice I can give is the same as WOBG.  Keep contact to a bare minimum.  For example, if you are talking every day now, back off to once a week.  Keep conversations short and to superficial topics like the weather, a book you've read, etc.  You don't owe her answers to "Why haven't you called me?" or "Why didn't you answer the phone?"  Like WOBG said, a short, "Been really busy", and then change the subject and get off the phone quickly. 

If you decide NC is more palatable than this "tea party" relationship as Susan Forward calls it, do like WOBG suggested and don't engage in the backlash. Block on your phone, social media, email, everything.  Don't open the door if she comes to it.  Don't talk to other family members about it.  You get the idea. 

Glad you registered!  Keep sharing here!

[MoonPebble]

I totally understand how you feel. I too came to a point where it became physically impossible to maintain this semblance of a relationship. Superficial contact, pretending everything is great, playing happy families. And at the same time my depression and constant rumination, and feeling like there is something wrong with me. And anxiety and fear of expressing any emotion around them. I have even been scared of disassociating near them, because I can't control it, and it would "make them worry" about me and make me even "weirder" in my family. It kills.

[GoodPesto]

Thank you for your helpful replies and suggestions. Yes to power! Yes to Don't open the door! unPD-mother and I have a history of going n/c. Last time she kept sending e-mails that I sometimes read but never replied to. I had moved and only my younger sister knew where to. After a year and a half unPD-mom forced my sister somehow to tell her the adress and started sending letters. She has shown up unannounced after I had hung up on her for a very good reason, not to apologize but to show her "you are torturing me"-face. So I know she doesn't care about my boundaries
She has made sure during the last seven months of close contact that I hear on a regular basis how much she suffered when I refused to get be in touch. Although it did nothing but annoy me back then, it now adds to the G of the FOG. Similarily I feel horrible to cut the chords again because I know she is relieved and happy we were back in touch.
I myself was happy to hope that maybe things have changed. I had healed so much that I could handle who she is better, I thought and sometimes there were moments of her ackknowledging things were difficult when growing up. So there is pain of disappointment too and I am partially mad at myself for having to put myself through another cycle of this because I remember very clearly that I had decided I was better off without her for very good reasons and after countless attempts to find a less painful way to live with her in my life as this would be what I prefered in general.
The backlash I fear because I know she can become vile when injured. I have been very open with her again until very recently unfortunately, so she knows my soft spots and I fear her punishment (e.g. by proxy by turning family members dear to me against me) when I go n/c aprubtly. Maybe that's a way for me to surf through l/c for some more time, knowing I am protecting myself and giving myself some more time to process I am where I never wanted to be again.
Just realizing there is at least not much O of the FOG around, that's something positive!
I hope you too find your best ways to cope with everything and thank you again for your understanding. 

[TimetoHeal]

GoodPesto,

Sorry I misspelled your name before!  Good grief!   

I think I completely missed that you were NC before and reestablished contact with hopes that things could be different.  I'm so sorry.  That must be hard to lose your hard-won peace, not to mention the disappointment and hurt.  But I think it's perfectly normal for someone to want their mother in their life and hope beyond hope that things can change.  No one can fault you for that.  You can tell yourself you absolutely tried everything, and hopefully, that will bring you some comfort and strength. 

I imagine it will take some work to disentangle yourself again, but you can do it.  I think the first step is to go Grey Rock to protect yourself and stop giving her any personal information as ammunition she can use against you in the future.  Only you will know how, when, and if to cut the cord again, so to speak, but you will know.  It's quite possible, once your mother feels you pulling away, she will make things unbearable for you.  I'm sorry, because that's certainly the hardest part.  Take whatever steps you need to protect yourself:  physically, emotionally, financially, spiritually, and mentally! 

You've got this!

[OverHere]

GoodPesto I liked your post but it does sound very tough.  I won't give examples of what to say here, but if you look for them you will find them just everywhere and I think the real problem could be that it feels impossible for you personally to say them. I started keeping a notebook of good lines and I hope some of them will come to life for me because the world is just full of people like our mothers and, worse, we are shaped to attract them, and only them, at first.

I'm told it takes several attempts, over many years, to break away for good.

I also really liked what you said about your mother arriving at your door, not to apologise but to demonstrate how you were torturing her. She would probably say "just being honest" but it's pure manipulation. But as we know, to any onlooker......its like when a child falls over and looks around to check how loud and in what direction to perform.  I think they don't know there is any other way to be and they think everyone around them works in the same way. It's so exhausting.

I hope things come clearer for you soon and you can keep up some good self-care.

Good morning,

for the last decade I've been coming back to this forum whenever I felt the need, e.g. to read from others in similar situations, to refresh my memory of typical traits, or tools to handle difficult situations. A couple of days ago I registered to have a place to reflect. I suffered from (c)PTSD with all its tough symptoms for years and am happy to have regained important parts of my health. After my unPD-mother had left after a 24h visit last week, the first in years, I could feel the negative effect of her presence on my well-being very clearly. Suddenly I felt the weight of depression again, suddenly I was tired like nothing, suddenly I felt small and unfit for the world again. A heartfelt no to this. There are no words how hurtful this visit was.
What I am struggling with at the moment is that I cannot just go n/c like I would want to. It would create a backlash that would most likely lead to an ugly fight or even more contact. She is sensitive though and has already picked up on my withdrawal. A short kept call this morning confirmed this.
I find it very hard to not JADE because it seems to be asked with every turn in the conversation. How do I respond instead, I am lacking imagination. It's about simple things like why I haven't answered the phone but goes on and I wonder what would be left if I didn't JADE at all. How often can "I don't know what to say?" be repeated? How is it possible to cope with faking ligh-hearted conversations when your heart is in truth heavy and hurting?
Does anyone have ideas or experiences that might be worth trying?

[GoodPesto]

@timetoheal You didn't have a chance to get that info in this post! I found it pretty hard to get started here because the story is already endlessly long, so I probably missed putting it in this one. Thank you for kind words. 
@Overhere You definitely gave me food for thought. To reach a point where you are able to be verbally acting out the unimaginable could be truly liberating. Thought about writing down some helpful lines, too. I also think the world is full of people in denied trouble and has become even fuller of it during the last couple of selfie-years. Thank you for the input.

[GoodPesto]

TLDR: Was guided by someones post to read an article by Pete Walker (on the effects of emotional neglect). Brought up some stuff. Leaving it here to reread in case of doubts.

When I was a teenager, I shared my life with a pet rat. She was an amazing being and I loved her dearly. I took her almost everywhere (walking in the woods, to school, shopping), sometimes hidden in my sleeves or the hood. She was completely comfortable with me, would come when being called when running freely in my room, sleep lying around my neck or in a sleeve. We spent hours without end together, shared meals and she was THE companion during the messed up time of my FOO breaking apart (divorce of my parents). She was gentle, never aggressive, very intelligent and impressivly trusting. And she was beautiful, too. Big, almost black eyes, anthracite and white fur, and of course a stunning tail.
They say pet rats live for about two years. She lived for 3 years, 3 weeks and 5 days. When I came home after one of the very few occasions when I had left her in unPDmoth care, I opened her cage to find her having died (lonely). When I went to share the sad news with unPDmoth, she said not the least surprised: Yeah, she was unwell the last two days and didn't eat. I would have left the friend where I had stayed over the weekend immediately had I known my beloved pet was not ok. But unPDmom must have missed our bond although she rarely saw me without her and didn't call or text to tell me.
This might seems like this could happen. A mistake. Simply.
When grandpa was dying unPDmoth did not tell me, either, knowing I love him dearly. Her sister took her daughter and went to visit him a last time. UnPDmoth drove by herself, not even letting me know it's happening. Afterwards, when I went to the funeral, she forgot to share with me that grandpa had said he wouldn't want everyone to show up being dressed in black for it. So after she would not give me a chance to kiss him goodbye, I was the only member of friends and family at the funeral and the gathering afterwards who was traditionally dressed in black. In a way I found this situation to be expressing my status of being the black sheep painfully performative.
I wonder if unPDmoth might have a sadistical vein that she is subconscioussly satisfying this way. What I know for sure is that I learned to be scared of her vilany. The scary thing about this is the invisibility of the violence, the silence that surrounds the act (violent by not saying a peep, explain that to a judge). Not to minimize physical abuse, but personally, after having experienced this and similar behaviour around life/death moments, already tough moments made cruel, I would rather have taken more beatings.
Gina, I love you forever and I am sorry you didn't get a chance to decide if you liked my company for your last breaths. Grandpa, I love you forever, too and would love to hear the sweet joke you would make about being pedastaled with a rat, leaving no doubt you got me.

[NarcKiddo]

I am so sorry you were not able to be there for your rat's last days. I have not had pet rats myself but friends have, and I have looked after them. They are lovely little animals and the fact she lived for so long is testament to your care and love.

If your senses are telling you that your mother might have behaved like this on purpose I think you would do well to consider this further. My mother might well have done similarly.

Mine did not behave like this in respect of my pets (though she did behave horribly towards a puppy) but the story of your grandpa's death very much echoes my experience of the death of my grandmother. I loved my grandmother very much and she was really the only safe person I could be around as a child. Sadly I could not be with her all that much. My mother knew I loved my grandmother very much, but she did not tell me when my grandmother was dying and that my father (her son) had gone to be with her. She casually mentioned in a random phone conversation that the end was near. I asked for more information and my mother swore blind she had told me my grandmother was in hospital and would not come out. She had not. My grandmother had been in hospital for well over a week by then. Luckily I could drop everything and undertake the long journey to where my grandmother was and managed to see her before she died.

In my case I am absolutely sure that my mother acted out of jealousy, because I loved my puppy and I loved my grandmother.

[GoodPesto]

Thanks for your post NC. I am sorry something similar happened to you (and your dog) too and glad you made it in time to see your grandmother anyway. Jealousy was definately a contributing factor in my case as well, thanks for reminding me.   

[GoodPesto]

Typing away so ptsd-I do not relapse. When unPDmoth had left, ptsd-I felt a strong urge to numb my feelings like ptsd-I used to for 8 years. Ptsd-I had quit almost half a year ago, pretty much the day xunPDhus had left the shared flat. It was easy, really, like a gift from god, no symptoms of withdrawal, no big urges, out of my mind quickly. And then unPDmoth visited. I resisted.
Fast forward three weeks and I am tempted again. Two consecutive nights ptsd-I had nightmares about the marriage.
Also deeply triggered by a guy that I asked for a job who thought it's ok to take advantage and asked me to spent time with him in his private pool and sauna. He even had the audacity to argue it would be benefical for the job I was about to get (getting the accommodation ready for people who would pay to stay at his place).
If ptsd-I had been given a coin for every minute ptsd-I had been exploited, I would not need a job in this life-time.

[moglow]

GoodPesto my heart aches for you. I also have a vile vindictive mother when crossed. Or when I have a different opinion. Or when I express anything that contradicts her thoughts about anything.

Our family shrank over the years, I think now because of her. She refused and ignored attempts to be together, withheld information about family. Oh she'd tell me when they passed or were in last days, but never when they were visiting nearby. With those she'd tell me after they were gone what a good visit they had, how everyone was there, asking about me etc. She's withheld contact information, claiming to not have it anymore then months later mention calling those very people. She set us adrift without family, and did her damnedest to separate the four of us from each other. I think it's a desperate need to be the one everyone goes to, a fear that if we're together she's shut out. And that's what she's created finally: she shut herself out. Her siblings are all gone and she showed us/her own family decades ago that she can't be trusted.

It's still not easy. She claims to not understand "what happened." She's invented all manner of reasons in her mind, never facing anything she's actually said it done. That never happened and I'm a liar - just ask her. Then when she's cooled off, calmed down, butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. Why don't I call. I don't ask about her and her health issues. I don't care enough etc etc and nauseum.

Fact us, we have no relationship other than we are related by virtue of her giving birth and me surviving her home. There are no -and i do mean no because I've asked- shared happy memories. She remembers nothing and "all that's in the past." I refuse to share my life with her out of experience and self preservation - everything is a weapon when she chooses. Any contact is brief and superficial. She complains that I don't call? Well I had nothing to say or share. I stopped visiting years ago- drive to her house only to have her pick it apart later for imaginary problems and slights, a misspoken word or some "tone" she runs through her inner interpreter to mean something other than what was said.

All that to say, I make contact when I am well, rested, peaceful. I don't share my problems or worries no matter how she goads. I try to maintain my equilibrium, try to not laugh outright when she contradicts herself with the flip flops of excuses and justifications for the way she treats me. At the root of mine, she's honestly not interested, on any level. There's a sad comfort and safety in that - I know now that what she says is superficial at best. Anyone who falls for her bs is welcome to it.

But it's still not always easy. Or peaceful. And I know in my heart of hearts I won't miss her when she's gone. I won't be dancing over it but neither will there be the gut sick grief of when Daddy passed. She was just never there to miss.

For you - get it out here when you need to. Find your people who get it and let you vent. I found that talking about it with the few safe people and when the moment felt right, helped me immeasurably. Holding it in and pretending all is well is what continued to cause me harm. I absorbed her poison. I turned it all inward and it became a lifetime battle with depression. I pray you find better.

We're here with you.

[moglow]

Geez Louise. Brava for her ... For allowing him to carry on with her underage daughter, only insisting they not smoke weed?? To what purpose, her bringing up a tainted image from the far distant past? So they DO remember, just in their warped way? Swell. Helpful.

[footprint33]

How often can "I don't know what to say?" be repeated? How is it possible to cope with faking ligh-hearted conversations when your heart is in truth heavy Iand hurting?

Hi GoodPesto,

I'm so sorry you're going through this and are physically feeling the effects of this toxic situation. I quoted the above sentences because it was years of using the gray rock method that ultimately led me to go NC. I couldn't take the phoniness of it anymore. However, I needed to be in a good place before I went NC. I have not seen either of my parents in person since 2013, but I didn't go full NC until 2016 (I was VLC with gray rock email correspondence only, which I just eventually faded away, ultimately never responding to any more emails).

However, like you, I re-engaged with my parents in 2021 after 5 years of full NC. I was doing so well during NC and had gotten to the point where I barely thought about them anymore and wasn't triggered much, but I'd heard my father was very sick in 2021 and felt I needed to reach out for my own sake one last time just to tell him I wished him well on his journey (did that with a short email). He responded very coldly. That alone probably would have been ok and I would have moved on again, but it led to a brother contacting me immediately, seemingly very nice and saying he wanted to reconnect. We didn't have much contact but the brother was super nice each time (saw him in person for two very short visits he made to my location and had a few email correspondences) Fast forward to 2023 and I learn that he's saying horrible things about me behind my back, all while acting to my face as if we're rekindling a relationship. He then also got an old friend of mine to attack me and play the flying monkey. I'm now convinced that the brother only contacted me in the first place because he didn't want me near my father and was worried that I was back in touch with him. The most likely reason for everything that went down is that he wanted to keep me away from any inheritance, something I've assumed for years I'm out of anyhow. The whole incident just reminded me of how things always were with them all and how I needed to be NC again.

I went full NC with them all again one year ago and am now feeling much better. But the 2021-2023/2024 period was difficult for me because I had broken NC and bad things had come out of it. I don't regret it and think that contacting my father when he was sick and also trying to make a new start with that brother were both stones that I needed to turn over in order to move on in my life. I know 100% what's on the other side of those stones and won't be doing that again!

If you can go NC, you don't need to engage with your mother. One way of doing it would be to let her know that you need to take some time off and then just don't respond to her anymore, or put larger and larger distances between your responses to her until finally you stop responding entirely.

When these people make us physically, emotionally, and psychologically unwell, we need to get away from them.
footprint

[GoodPesto]

@footprint Thank you for sharing this. I can relate to the metaphor of the turned stones and to the feeling of having healed enough to try again (Maybe there was some growth on the other side too! Maybe enough time has passed to restart on a clean-ish state. Or: It can't be as bad anymore as it once was, i am an independently living grown-up after all, aren't I?).
Although I feared to go n/c when I posted, I never called and kept the incoming calls short. unPDmoth tried to squeeze a guilt trip in, remaining completely blind for how her behaviour might have contributed to my withdrawal. Emphasis on expressing her pain and shock I haven't called once since she had left my home. This time I will not explain myself. I would be stupid to open up to her one more time knowing this is going to be used in horrific ways later on. Thank you for responding, it was inspiring how you owned the bad experience of going back and I am happy you're feeling better again.

[GoodPesto]

Boundaries for sale!

UnPDmoth and I had agreed on mother's day when she had called that I would be in touch whenever I am ready.
I got two weeks and a bit!
Today I got a small parcel from her, including an envelope containing one of her famous letters.
I received quite a few (to an address I never shared with her) when I was N/C last time, so I am quite familiar with the nature of them.
When she was here in April ("THE" visit that made me go N/C again) she had mentioned she has a whole folder at home with all her attempts to reach out. It was within the frame of: If I hadn't done all the great work, we wouldn't be sitting at this table.
She does not seems to understand we might have been sitting at this table sooner had she respected boundaries.
Anyhow, knowing that she is keeping copies of her letters to me and collects them was very offputting. It felt like it's her proof she tried EVERYTHING and is being unfairly treated by her unforgiving daughter.
The last times I skimmed the contents after a few days and never replied, this time I sent the unopened letter back with something I wanted to return to her anyway. I assume she will be horror-stricken at my disrespect, share her pain with everyone and the colour of my wool will grow even darker in their eyes.
Didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it.