Disappointing my son with fear

[Prototypian]

Over Easter weekend we had our college aged kids in town.   This coincided with a cleanup around the perimeter of the home for the Monday following Easter to prep for a new roof installation at the house (we had hail the size of grapefruit a month ago).   

An aspect of my wife's ocpd is severe attachment to things and hoarding.   The level of emotional attachment to things is enormous and in reality outsized.   

My kids are college age or out of college.  They had a playground that was a kit from a lumber store where you bought a box of parts and then sourced a list of lumber and then followed instructions to build a playground.  It worked great then eventually rotted then I had to take it down out of a combination of safety and eyesore.   But there was no way the slide, swings, various parts and hardware could be thrown away.   As we got to the point that stuff had to be moved away from the house perimeter for the roofing crew she began to get agitated.   I wanted to throw the parts way which are now sort of sun rotting plastic.   She finally lost in in severe anger.  This is the kind of anger that one reserved for a child being kidnapped.  It's way over the top anger and it remains for a lifetime.  She holds anger grudges about simple things like leftovers she was planning to have being eaten.   One can't apologize enough because the anger and slight is so great and so personal.

This conflict about the pile of junk went off the rails.  I finally had to leave


My issue is that my son later called me out.   "I don't understand why you won't stand up to her on something like this".

But I don't think he understands what it's like to have someone remember and remind you of an event like throwing away a bucket or part of swingset and have that remain as a source of near violllent memory anger and resentment daily for the rest of your life. 

An example, we have multiple cars.   As in I have a pair of vehicles just for me one a toy convertible and one a very new Toyota Tacoma 4wd, she has a late model SUv and each kid has a vehicle     Plus we have every vehicle she has ever driven.   A 1998 Toyota sienna that doesn't run, a 2005 Toyota Highlander that just sits and my former 2000's era Tacoma that doesn't get used.   These other vehicles just sit.   I sold one that was a truck I had from graduate school and post doctoral work at one point and the bawling and emotional fear and distraught nature and anger over "all of the memories from that truck" still continues to this day. 

I feel so stuck between the inability to negotiate, the oversized emotional reactions with anger and the commitment to being a strong person keeping a maarriave together.   It's bizarre how I'm so stuck in this.

[TimetoHeal]

I'm so sorry, Jsinjin.  This sounds incredibly stressful.  It sounds like your children no longer live at home.  It's always easier for people on the outside (although they are not completely on the outside of course, since they are part of the family) to tell us what we "should" do.  But you are the one who has to live with it on a daily basis. 

I don't have any great advice for you, just sympathy.  I can almost feel your wife's fear and distress as well, as I have some OCD characteristics and get overly attached to physical things as well.  Your wife's feelings are real, but that doesn't mean they don't cause distress and anxiety in the rest of the family. 

I hope your roof replacement goes well.  I'm sure just the stress of getting something that big done on the house is making everything harder!  Grapefruit sized hail sounds frightening BTW!

[JustKeepTrying]

Goodness I remember my OCPDxh attachment to a bag of mix matched socks with holes. The biggest, angriest meltdown when I tried to throw the bag away. He brought in from the trash (which meant he went through the trash!)

As for your kids, they may never understand until it is only her that they have to deal with. It is hard to describe the fear and behaviors you have to adopt when dealing with someone like this.

I can give you a glimmer of hope - five yrs since the divorce - and my ex has been giving my oldest the silent treatment. Won't commit to a date to visit or return calls. She has mentioned it several times and I don't comment. Eventually, they will see a glimmer and perhaps with therapy as they grow older they will begin to understand.

sending you hugs jsinjin

[MaxedOut]

Jsinjin, that sounds awful. As I recall from prior posts: (1) there is not really any rational conversation to be had when your wife is triggered and often just generally in certain areas; (2) you are financially secure; (3) you also have your own place.

What might protecting yourself from these outbursts look like? It sounds like this was something likely to cause a blow-up - would paying the crew to move the pile or saying "let's get someone hires to deal with that scrap" (and letting her order them to move or whatever but owning the control/issue)?

If instead of engaging/arguing you attended to boundaries around treatment "I understand this is upsetting but it's not ok to yell at me. If you don't stop I am going to need to take a break from this conversation." how might that go (knowing there is the other house if she won't stop with the abuse or control.

Is there a pattern to her activation? For my ex, a peaking activation would usually take about 3 days to ebb with bigger cycles as well where the peaking extremes of dysregulation were more frequent. If so, are there things you can do to limit abusive interactions during those periods? Was it apparent that the roofing job would likely involve moving the junk? If so, would it be better to raise that issue before work starts or would that just derail the whole roof job?

We shouldn't need to game all of these issues out. But from prior posts it does not seem like you are considering leaving your marriage so I am thinking about what harm reduction and creating distance between what she should be owning and what is your side of the proverbial street.

[notrightinthehead]

My issue is that my son later called me out.  "I don't understand why you won't stand up to her on something like this".


I got that from my daughter as well. In fact, I am 6 years out and she still begrudges that I failed to protect my children from the rages and unreasonable demands and behaviour of their father. And it is true. I did fail to protect my children with my meekness and my enabling and my co-dependency.

Now that I am Out of the FOG I am so grateful that my kids and I are still talking and I get a chance to apologize and make up.

[downwiththefog]

> "I don't understand why you won't stand up to her on something like this".

that's something my daughters told me too.
And also added things like "You brought this upon yourself because you decided not to divorce"

And they witnessed only a fraction of what has been going on for years. The piles of poo that she regurgitates on me when they are all out is honestly unbelievable.

In the end I think the kids are right - I live with the consequences of my choices.

[Prototypian]

I happened to see a previous generation of this.   My uOCPDw's mother had the same set of behaviors although I didn't understand them then.   I didn't learn about personality disorders until I had a breakdown  that required therapy and the therapy helped me understand this.   My mother in law died absolutely afraid to get up in her nursing home for fear of falling.   She would insist on unplugging every single electrical device from outlet in her home before leaving for "fear of a fire" and more.  But when my wife's father left her mother after a similar breakdown the kids (she and her brothers) wound up shouldered with the burden of caring for tbeir mother and they were heavily impacted and resentful of this.   The woman couldn't or wouldn't drive to the grocery store around the corner without consulting a map (for real) and trusted no one, not doctors or other professionals about her care or health. 


I think this just gets worse as the PD ages and I don't look forward to that but I hate the idea of my kids being stuck with this as their burden.

[notrightinthehead]

Fortunately my kids chose not to get stuck. They are healthy enough to see that they didn't cause it, can't change it, can't cure it and barely have any contact with the raging parent. Hopefully yours are not too damaged and will learn that with time too.

[square]

I agree with NRITH. Your children can make different choices than your wife and her brothers did - and all the more so with the support and understanding of their father, you.

Also, I don't know if this would be a good or bad idea for you, but you leaving does not necessarily mean you couldn't help or be involved with major issues in the future - like if in 20 years she fell in the house and clearly couldn't live independently anymore, you could still help with figuring out a solution and making it happen. I personally would intervene if my daughter told me my husband was in a significant delusional state, though we are separated. Again, not to say you necessarily should, but it's an option.

So if you're thinking leaving would have to mean your kids relive your mother's story - no way. In fact, it could model something very different to them. Was their father helpful to them, did he reassure them that their mother was making her own choices and they need not structure their lives around her? Did he model good boundaries? Did he protect them from the effects of FOG?

Your story, and theirs, can be entirely different.

[Poison Ivy]

 

[Prototypian]

Hey.  Thanks so much.  It was actually my wife's mother, not my mother.   She (mother in law) passed away mostly out of eventual fear of even getting out of bed in the nursing home.   She just slowly wasted away afraid continuously of falling or being hurt or injured.   I didn't recognize it then but after a breakdown I had with my wife much later when I just couldn't take it a therapist pointed out that my wife probably had ocpd which led me to this group.   I grew up what one would call blessed.   Happy family with normal ups and downs.   No alcoholism or drugs, two doting parents, four doting grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles, family reunions, everyone went to college and everyone was upper middle class and my sisters and I wound up the same way.   I literally couldn't reconcile my wife's behavior against my former life and in my former life the biggest disappointments and down emotional times were getting turned down for jobs or getting frustrated by relationships with girlfriends.   I had no depression.  I don't blame it on her.   I just never had it at all.   And at one point during a period of self harm both I and the counselor asked her if she (my spouse) could let things stacked at the top of the stairs (baby clothes and children's clothes from a time when our kids were 3-5 and they are now in their 20s) go to prevent my self harm she said she just couldn't, the clothes were too important to her.   

I don't want to cause harm to others.   I'm always one who doesn't want to hurt anyone whether it's in a negotiation, an argument or a period of setting boundaries.

[square]

Sorry, Jsinjin, I meant to say "their" mother, not your mother. Meaning their mother's story where she was saddled with the care of her own mother after her father left.

The very fact that you are concerned about your children being in this situation means their story will be quite different, even if you leave.

I can relate to growing up happy and yet finding myself in the hardest situation of my life. What you and I can do with that is to be able to be the stable and safe parent, and to know what "normal" looks like. Or to vaguely remember it, lol, since I'm sure we've been spun around enough that the landscape has become blurred.

[blunk]

And at one point during a period of self harm both I and the counselor asked her if she (my spouse) could let things stacked at the top of the stairs (baby clothes and children's clothes from a time when our kids were 3-5 and they are now in their 20s) go to prevent my self harm she said she just couldn't, the clothes were too important to her.   

I'm so sorry, Jsinjin. The above sentence is just so very sad and difficult to read. I think it goes without saying, but you should mean more to your spouse than a pile of old clothes.

[newlyawakened]

"I grew up what one would call blessed.   Happy family with normal ups and downs.   No alcoholism or drugs, two doting parents, four doting grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles, family reunions, everyone went to college and everyone was upper middle class and my sisters and I wound up the same way.   I literally couldn't reconcile my wife's behavior against my former life and in my former life the biggest disappointments and down emotional times were getting turned down for jobs"

"I don't want to cause harm to others.   I'm always one who doesn't want to hurt anyone whether it's in a negotiation, an argument or a period of setting boundaries."

I can relate to both these sentiments you have expressed above and many similarities with my own lived experiences. In my own situation, I feel that the second aspect of being extremely cognizant of causing harm to others, stems from the peace/security of my childhood. I have noticed folks who have had it a bit rough before adulthood tend to be better at looking after themselves.

[1footouttadefog]

Perhaps the anger from a huge purge would be no worse than from incremental cleanups. 

Like have several cars sold and hauled off and large debris piles sorted all at once. 

I am fortunate that most things here are forgotten fairly quickly even if they cause a stir.  They will be referenced but the sting is usually lost by them. 

[MaxedOut]

Newlyawakened, though my ex is not NPD, one aspect of Dr. Ramani's podcast that I found especially helpful was talk on several episodes of how a good, secure, loving upbringing brings certain vulnerabilities when it comes to how we (I count myself in this group) can get into and get stuck in relationships with PDs.

I don't think she brought this up but I think there is a bit of a horseshoe of vulnerability groups with those who experienced significant trauma or had PDs in their FOO and those with less exposure than average. The "feels like home" versus not having a mental model for things to lean on.

Examples of potential vulnerabilities from a "lucked out" family of origin: less messaging about some people being potentially hurtful, trusting in a shared sense of mutuality between loved ones, less learning of warning signals, having less of a sense of how similar relationship/personality issues look in those with and without disordered mental health, experience setting boundaries, using discretion, time, and testing whether trust is warranted. And being able to keep a compassionate/do not harm nature with understanding that sometimes that means not being helpful in the ways people want or continuing relationships the way they are. Plus there may bit a bit less of early support system alarms as we frame things from understanding/compassion/care and that seems normal for how we talk about stuff to those who have been alongside us through other relationships.