Do I explain

[Deby64]

Well my updh has asked me why I have issues with him and money. The truth is because I feel used by him as it is. I'm the only one with verified income, I take care of all household bills. He has asked me of several different occasions for large sums of $ (1500.00) that he would pay me back in a few weeks. Of course I've never seen a dime of it. I mentioned it to him once and he shrugged it off. Now I'm wanting to write him a letter explaining my issue with him and money. I'm saying write him a letter in an attempt to avoid the rage that will come for calling him out. My question is do I write the letter or let him keep asking with no reply?

[GoodPesto]

Hi Deby64,

if this were a healthy-ish relationship, you probably wouldn't need to ask that question. I am sorry you're feeling used. You can of course write that letter to get it all off your chest, but I wouldn't recommend sharing it from what I remember about your backstory. If you fear calling him out, I don't think giving it to him in writing will spare you from a blowback.
You might enjoy answering to his question in writing or in an imagined talk knowing you won't pass it to him or him not hearing a word of your response.
Another option might be to turn the question towards him should he ask again: Well, since you've been asking ... why do you think I have issues with you and money? But it's unfortunately probably safer to deflect it, I think.

[Rebel13]

Hi Deby, I happened to watch this video from Dr Ramani yesterday, "What therapists wish they could tell survivors of narcissistic abuse" and your post reminded me of it. I hope it's helpful to you.

[MaxedOut]

Good vid, Rebel13. Thanks for sharing. A thing I identified a few years ago personally that made things so hard with the relationship and the especially coping with my Xubpdw's mental and physical health challenges (esp suicidality, chronic pain) was "helpless distress." It helped me understand why it was so awful feeling. And with radical acceptance and understanding it's not about x thing, getting that there isn't a way to explain things the right way. I wrote my ex a few letters Deby64. At bets it was just an exercise in frustration and further hurt from trying to really navigate those words. More neutral, and specific behavior or goal stuff worked a bit better ("why do you have issues with me and X" sure sounds like a trap! I would not take it as a good faith question.).

[notrightinthehead]

Deby medium chill would be the safest way to respond in my experience - so you feel that there is an issue with money, I  am sorry you feel that way. And walk away or change topic. How about the weather recently?
Anything you will write can and will be used against you.
It sounds like you have not allowed him to exploit you further financially recently and he initiates the discussion to brow beat you into your previous compliance, so be careful of the bait dangling in front of you.

[Deby64]

Rebel13, thanks for the video. I get so frustrated because I know this stuff, yet to hear her say it again is so helpful.
I want to thank everyone for your words of support. I will write out my anger in my journal. I know in my heart, he won't listen, he doesn't care and I'll just hurt myself. I have a major surgery Friday and I'm worried as heck that he won't be there for me. Of course he'll be at the hospital, but as soon as I'm blessed to come out of surgery, he'll have an attitude because my surgery had inconvenienced him. My oldest daughter has planned to come in town for the surgery. Praise God for having a ram in the bush🥰. What an awful life this is for me. Not playing the victim because I know life is about choices. And I'm choosing to stay for whatever reason🤷🏾�♀️. It's so sad because I know I deserve better than this. Thanks for letting me share💔

[Rebel13]

Good luck Deby. I had a major surgery in 2023 and it is scary and stressful. I'm wishing you the best and hoping you can prioritize yourself and get the care you need. I'm glad your daughter will be there with you.

[square]

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

A long time ago, I promised myself that if I had to deal with something major, like cancer, I'd leave immediately. Because my husband would have taken me to get chemo or whatever and then yelled at me on the way home, and it would have some effect on my very survival.

We should be able to lean into the embrace of our loved ones when we face hurdles like this, not have extra hurdles (and more painful ones) thrown at us.

[MaxedOut]

Square, I had some health issues that lead me to considering cancer diagnosis and had the same very quick conclusion. Thankfully it was not a reality I had to face but that knowledge stuck with me. Part was not wanting to be subject to maltreatment and cancer treatment. And the other was that I was already burned out and exhausted and even if my ex was consistently caring (which would not be the case), I just wouldn't be able to take care of my health needs and everything else.

[Deby64]

OMG, my udpd-h woke me up in the middle of the night raging about an argument we had earlier. He said he was done with me and wasn't taken me for surgery on Friday morning. I needed to figure it out since I can't acknowledge how he's held me up and made me who I am today. He of course said many other hurtful things. I said ok. Spoke with my daughter this morning and she said mom I got you. I'm so hurt I can't stop crying. If I don't file for a divorce after this I'm seriously mental. He'll most likely come back when I return home saying. Forgive me for those harsh words. I'm just tired of you not respecting me bahl-bahl-bahl. I've gotta file even if I don't move out. 🙏🏾🙏🏾For my health and strength please.

[Rebel13]

Yes Deby, please do what you need to, to create an environment of peace and sanity for yourself. You deserve it. Hoping you are doing OK after surgery today.

[Deby64]

Thanks for the support guys. My daughter was there for me the entire time. Heading home now. Was going to go stay with her and my son in law, but refuse to do that right now. I've just bought the recliner I needed for this hip surgery and it's in my home. I will MC and JADE until I get the strength to push forward. Will be looking for rentals while I'm laid up🙏🏾

[square]

Glad your surgery seems to have gone okay. It's a good plan.

Don't depend on him, don't expect anything kind or helpful. Proceed as if he's a lost cause. If he says something weird or unkind, just internally shake your head like you didn't expect anything better. In my experience, it hurts less this way.

[Deby64]

Thanks Square,
Of course he went on a rambling rampage when I first got home. I just say in my recliner and said nothing. Then I told him Monday I was going to start looking for a place. At first he was a little angry, then said yea, I think our connection is over. Wanted to know if I was gonna keep paying the house payments since I just refinanced it to pay off all my debt. I told him most likely, let me see what I find. Of course the kids are telling me I'm crazy if I let him live in our home and continue to pay for it. 🤷🏾�♀️ On some level it feels like the right thing to do. If I can have my divorce w/o all the rage, it's worth it to me. I believe once I start making moves things will change for the worse. I pray not, we will see. I deserve better. I do love him, the project of blame, lack of accountability and verbal tongue lashes have broken me as low as I choose to go. 🙏🏾

[square]

Like you really needed his demands and tantrums when you just got home from surgery.

If it makes it a little less scary to deal with, mentally step back and see him not as a big scary angry man but a pathetic child. I've sometimes been able to feel a little less scared of my H and MIL that way. I don't have to give them that power. Obviously things are different if any type of physical harm is on the table.

As for you paying the house and letting him live there, my advice is to not commit either way. I certainly don't think it's automatically a bad idea - if you have the means, it may well be worth it. But you should not hamstring yourself for life if it turns out another way. You may feel differently about it in a few months or years.

Furthermore, why not keep a bit of power and leverage. Rather than you promising or making any commitments, stick with "I'll think about it," "maybe," and "we'll see." If you do end up doing it, he needs to keep his end of this implied bargain, whatever you might envision that as: keeping things reasonably civil and keeping additional demands to a bare minimum. 

Also, my guess is that he will swing back and forth between appearing to agree with the separation and fighting it. He may be trying to call your bluff. And/or he may wish to reframe it as his idea, that is, him discarding you instead of the other way around.

[square]

On the paying for the house thing, here are some options to consider. I don't know how many payments are left. And obviously IANAL, these are just thoughts to keep you from thinking you'll just give him everything.

You could agree to pay for a limited amount of time. That could be years but if you have 20 years left on the mortgage, that's a long time. What if you couldn't work anymore or needed to scale back some years from now?

You could also agree to a "stepdown" plan like you paying in full for two years, and half for the following two years, allowing him time to get on his feet.

Or maybe there's only five years left and you don't think he's capable of working much (he'll have to work some to eat and keep the lights on). So maybe you agree to pay it but if the home is sold, you get more than 50% of the proceeds, reflecting your sole contribution to the asset post divorce.

Also, you have to consider maintenance. Will you be upkeeping the home? Will you pay for it and arrange it, e.g. call the roofers and get quotes for the job? Will he sabatoge any of this? Will he vandalize the home, such as allowing a leak to cause grave damage? Will he obstruct contractors sent to work there?

You'll have to consider property taxes.

You'll want to clarify that, I assume, he is responsible for electric and heating bills, appliances, etc. Upkeep, lawn mowing.

Could you evict him if he sabatoged something?

How would you feel if he moved another woman into the home you're paying for? Also imagine that woman being a thorn in your side, making demands, vandalizing things, etc.

[Deby64]

Square, some of those things have ran through my mind. I'm so desperate for freedom I don't care. The house was in my name. Refinanced it last month paid off my car and all credit cards. New mortgage includes taxes and insurance. He got 14K cash out of the deal. Now says, he shouldn't have to pay any of that back because he beautified our home to make the value go up🤦🏾After calling me everything but a child of God. He said put it in the decree. Once I get it down to 14K, he'll pay. He's so freaking delusional that I just want out. He's gonna screw me some kind of way, and again I don't care. Get me out so I can have peace.

[square]

I hear ya, and I absolutely agree that peace is worth some cost. Just don't commit until you've talked to a lawyer who understands the issues. And consider what you can do to limit things so you are not still getting strangled 12 years from now. It is sensible to know you aren't going to end up in a perfect situation, but no need to give up more than you need to.

Remember. You have the cards. Fork over some chips but don't push over the whole pile.

[square]

And always hold something back that you are willing to give up. Because you will be asked to give more. Better to have something ready for that.

[Rebel13]

Hi Deby, I can definitely understand your desperation. I was so desperate to get away from my parents who made my life hell. I remember how that felt.

But please try as much as you can to consider square's thoughts. She is super smart and has a lot of experience with a similar situation in her own life. You deserve to care not only for yourself currently, but also for your future self. Try taking deep breaths to calm your thoughts and fears. This might give you enough room to work with a lawyer or other professional to come up with a separation agreement that protects your interests as well as your husband's. Your future self may very well thank you!

Here's a blog post with some information and good comments about making an agreement with a disordered person: https://www.chumplady.com/how-to-divorce-a-financially-abusive-cheater/