The Drama of Hurt Feelings

[Cenerentola]

Recently my dad reached out wanting to get together with me and updm and discuss my relationship with her.  (See previous posts for some history.  Tl;dr, updm didn't want to discuss her problems with me one-on-one.)  I thought about saying no but ultimately decided I have nothing to lose at this point.  My plan was to mc through the whole thing.  That worked for about an hour, during which updm brought up various things I'd said over the past months, misremembering what I'd said in most cases, and misinterpreting as designed to hurt things that were innocent.  I did a pretty good yellow rock, essentially playing endless soothing variations of, "Hey, I remember actually saying X.  I'm sorry that your feelings got hurt.  I certainly didn't want that to happen."  And then at a certain point I was asked if I had anything I wanted to improve in the relationship.  I thought about it for a good solid minute, and then I thought, what the hell?  So I told them that I felt loved and accepted to the extent that I mirrored their life choices, but rejected to the extent that I did not; brought up a few choice parentification issues from childhood that really did a number on me; and mentioned updm's emotional instability as a chronic issue.  All of that I do not regret; what I do regret is that I completely lost my cool and yelled at them while doing so.

The whole convo dragged on for almost three hours.  By the end of it we were all calmed down again.  I had stuck to my guns, however, and continued to insist that the things I brought up were real issues.  There was a lot of rug sweeping ("things were hard in our family because of this external / that other thing") and a lot of "I don't remember it that way at all" (I wonder about disassociation?—there is definitely a bpd streak to updm).  I didn't back down and, after my initial rage, I was doing mc.  I just wish I could have stayed that way the whole time!!!!

Finally, towards the end, updm brought up one of my 4-5 boundaries that I've implemented in the past year as being just so hurtful/impossible.  And I looked her in the eye and told her it was not up for negotiation.  Now, with some time to reflect, I'm think that was what this whole blow up was about.  I haven't actually been less tactful recently than for the rest of my life (I think?).  But the boundaries are real and I have no doubt they've made updm uncomfortable.  I doubt this was a conscious strategy ("Hey, lets make Cenerentola uncomfortable and guilty and then break her boundaries down") but it doesn't need to be conscious for it to be a thing ... My h, when I brought this up with him, said he could definitely see that being a possible explanation for the drama.  He also said though (and this is not mutually exclusive) that there are some people who just like drama ... and he's not wrong, and updm is one of them.

I'm alternating between feeling relief that I was honest with them (I've longed to do that for years) and fear that there will be some horrible consequences (m having a psychotic break maybe? not that she's ever had one before, just yelled and thrown stuff while dissociated) and anger at how I was treated as if *I* were the problem here.

I have yet to see where this goes next.  One thing I know, those boundaries are not budging.

[moglow]

And I looked her in the eye and told her it was not up for negotiation.  Now, with some time to reflect, I'm think that was what this whole blow up was about.  I haven't actually been less tactful recently than for the rest of my life (I think?).  But the boundaries are real and I have no doubt they've made updm uncomfortable.

If I may, try to extend that [even if only internally] to "those boundaries aren't up for further discussion either." They/she wanted to pick apart decisions you made for yourself and your well being, and that's honestly not their place. Not anymore. They were responsible for those when you were a child and from what you've shared, absolved themselves of that responsibility on several levels. That's no longer your stuff and this is where we are now. You simply carry on and live your boundaries. Don't explain or excuse them further or expect her to somehow comply. You said what you said and now you become the enforcer. You address as needed, politely, kindly, calmly and still the Enforcer.

For what it's worth, I totally get where you are with the looooooong recitation of hurt feelings and where you let her down and GASP! used the "wrong" words. Know too that conversation may not be over for her - it may be a starting point because you dared speak up on your own behalf instead of just listening to hers. On reflection she may well come up with more sunshine and daisies she needs to throw your way when everything doesn't magically flip to be all that she imagined from that conversation. You have every right to decline further fruitless confrontations - feel free to counter attempts with "lets just sit on that, shall we? I'm sure we both have plenty to think about."

Mine's doing that now too, so I get the conflicting feelings and the likely deep seeded desire to just SCREAM and flail around to get it all out! Instead of looking to herself and admitting, Hey I shouldn't have said/done that, mommie dearest's jumped into the quicksand of Well you shouldn't have said/done abc and xyz and you owe me an apology for lmnop and and and. HARD into denial and gaslighting and I'm a horrible awful and I STILL owe her apology for random lmnop and we can't "move forward" until she get it. Know what? She can sit and spin around on that. That's where *I* am today. 

[Rebel13]

Cenerentola, I hope you can give yourself all the many kudos for being so kind and mc/yellow rock through the whole conversation; in fact, for being willing to have the conversation in the first place! That's got to be waaaaaay more kindness and consideration than was coming back at you.

I can so relate to both the anger and frustration behind what you, and also you, moglow, write here. I wouldn't dare to try to get through a conversation because I already know I'd lose my cool and blow up, and have a really hard time feeling like it wasn't justified. I admire you both so much for being able to be strong in your boundaries and still be in contact.

[TimetoHeal]

This sounds like it was a very stressful conversation, and to last 3 hours!  Whew! Give yourself some credit just for surviving that!  Also, this is the first I have ever heard the term "yellow rock", so I just Googled that.  Interesting!

Give yourself some grace. These are difficult circumstances, and it seems like there is never a "right" thing to say with some people. 

[Liketheducks]

I'm SO impressed that you were able to keep your boundaries and say that they weren't negotiable...even if you lost your cool.   That was a lot!   

[walking on broken glass]

I got stressed just reading about the conversation! You are a hero for going through with it and surviving it. It brought flashbacks to me of similar marathon discussions I had with my parents that never led anywhere and where I ended up blowing up. Good for you for saying what you wanted to say and not budging on your boundaries. Now that it's over, you won't have to do that ever again. You've given them more opportunities than they deserve.

[Cenerentola]

Thank you all for the support.  Moglow, you made me laugh. 

M's days later follow up has been to tell me that she was defending not attacking (hmmm, so I was the attacker here? for having boundaries?), that she's not as strong as I think (oh lady, I am fully aware of your weaknesses), and to urge me to "stay sweet" because according to her, that's how I'm known and defined.  That would be a surprise to my classmates, friends, co-workers, mentors, etc., with whom I am regularly sassy, sarcastic, type-A, etc.  But yah know, mother knows best!

[moglow]

Whatever gets us through, right! I'm a past master at dark humor and snarks - I do try to hold back but sometimes it still gets the best of me.  It's just impossible to adequately predict their reactions and maintain our own measured responses. The whole "stay sweet" would be a reminder that she doesn't have a clue who you really are. Sweet I'm sure you can be, but you're not defined by her expectations. And that's all that comment's about, her putting her expectations on you and I'm sure dependent on how you respond to her. 

[TimetoHeal]

Speaking of dark humor, mo, wasn't "Stay Sweet" the motto that was told repeatedly to those women and girls in a polygamous cult that was exposed some time back?  I can't think of the name of it now.  It's like a very common thing for women and girls to be told to "stay sweet", in other words, never speak up for yourself and stay in line!

[Liketheducks]

Moglow....I love your responses.  I too get a little kick out of the dark humor part of it.  Keeping myself together, holding my boundaries firm, and watching them spin themselves out into outer space when they don't get their way....gives me an evil glee.  After years of feeling so powerless, it helps me to be able to laugh at the absurdity of it all. 

I really feel like I'm dealing with someone stuck in the emotional state of a teenager.  Which would make sense.  My mom had me, married her abuser, and lost her father all in the course of a year.  She had a lot of trauma going on then.  Makes me sad for her.  But, also it is SO much easier now to outwit the manipulation in such a way that I keep my integrity.  It REALLY chaps them when I don't respond the way they expect me to.  I have to be very strategic in relationships I once assumed were unconditional.  I've also come to realize that for me and for my boundaries....all my adult relationships are conditional in some way.    I've begun to realize, at least for me, that if my relationships are blindly unconditional....someone isn't adulting in a healthy way.

[SpiritedChange]

It really is drama. Are you familiar with the Karpman Drama Triangle?

[Cenerentola]

Spirited Change, I don't know if you were asking me, but yes, I am familiar with the Karpma Drama triangle.  And I've been involved before but this time I'm all

Fwiw, yes, Time to Heal, "Keep Sweet" is the name of a recent documentary about the offshoot branch of Mormonism that continued (illegally) practicing polygamy and child marriage.  It was also part of the motto that the group leaders imposed on the female members of the group.

But I'm actually here for an update.  Because after *alllllllll* that described above, M reached out to say that she still didn't like where our relationship is and saying she's up for getting together and talking about it if I am.

I feel as if there's nothing to discuss that hasn't been discussed already; if anything were to change in the relationship (not holding my breath) it would be from choosing to act differently based on what has already been said.

What does she think this conversation would improve?

[Cenerentola]

And, I just reread the comments above and wow, Moglow nailed it when she said this wasn't over.

[TimetoHeal]

Oh, boy, Cerentola.  It seems like just when we get to one plateau of "normal" with our family member, something shifts and changes.  I can't help but think this is by design.

Don't feel like you have to jump to have a conversation or do anything with your mother.  You get to choose what you want to do moving forward, and that may include nothing, or nothing right now.  Take some time and think it through.  No one is on fire. 

[moglow]

I feel as if there's nothing to discuss that hasn't been discussed already; if anything were to change in the relationship (not holding my breath) it would be from choosing to act differently based on what has already been said.

Can you tell her pretty much - this? I mean rehashing it yet again isn't productive - she'd work herself into a big ole snit and you'd be left with the debris as if it's yours to carry. Know what mom, I don't like it either but here we are. It's uncomfortable and dissatisfying on eleventy seven different levels. And I'm STILL not down for yet another pointless ramble to tell me the same things *yet again* and do nothing differently.

I get it, she's unhappy - why isn't that hers to deal with, just as it is with yours and everyone else? Why is it your job to pay her hand and "comply" to maintain her limited version of peace?

Idea: what if you're actually okay with the sheer peace of being apart, that the misery of normal interactions with her makes this worth it for you? I don't know all the backstory, but is that a possibility for you? That you're truly not interested in "more" with her, after everything said and done?

Part of the acceptance of who they are is accepting our own limits where they're concerned. The continual back and forth, black or white, all or nothing is exhausting. You're all adults - you've had to learn how to manage yourself, your emotions, your behavior and treatment of others. It's not at all unreasonable to insist on that with others. It's tiresome being dragged backwards through briars, pull them all out, only to be snatched up again later.

Live your life, @cerentola, as you would with any reasonable person. Maybe it's time to stop giving them special space.

[Call Me Cordelia]

 

The best apology is changed behavior. And rebuilding trust and getting to a good place takes consistent mature, kind behavior. Which means TIME. I notice with pwpd they like to think that an apology or "conversation" will magically restore the relationship to being instantly satisfying to the pwpd again. The slate is clean, it's in the past, we're best friends and all is just hunky dory forever. Maybe the splitting or black and white thinking explains it. I'm not 100% sure if that's your mom's pattern or expectation, but I'm wary of that. You had this big exhausting "discussion" and she's still not happy. Well no kidding! When there are lasting consequences and lack of closeness despite forgiveness, that's not just human nature, the law of sowing and reaping. Of course it's all your fault!

[moglow]

I'm still stunned by the belief that airing their oft-repeated grievances and feelings (yet again) somehow fixes things. Okay. Well, lancing a boil does work, but we're also given aftercare instructions on healing and prevention. 

That last lancing was what, a month ago, possibly another a month or so before that? They need this *monthly* or everything is all wonky in their world and they can't function?? Aw HELL no! [Here's an interesting exercise for ya: check moon cycles against these episodes. Did they fall around a full moon? So many of md's did, I stopped even questioning it after a while!]

We all have to do our own part, not sit back and wait for others to do it for us. Presumably we're not incapacitated - so it's a choice, that sitting back. Their (anyone's, really) expectations aren't ours to fulfill. They conveniently forget or just fail to acknowledge, we ALL have stuff - bad days, tough times, dark hours, disappointments and heartbreak. AND we have so much of the opposite when we look around!

[Cenerentola]

Whatever gets us through, right! I'm a past master at dark humor and snarks - I do try to hold back but sometimes it still gets the best of me. It's just impossible to adequately predict their reactions and maintain our own measured responses. The whole "stay sweet" would be a reminder that she doesn't have a clue who you really are. Sweet I'm sure you can be, but you're not defined by her expectations. And that's all that comment's about, her putting her expectations on you and I'm sure dependent on how you respond to her.

Moglow, I'm here for the dark humor and snark.   

[Cenerentola]

Oh, boy, Cerentola.  It seems like just when we get to one plateau of "normal" with our family member, something shifts and changes.  I can't help but think this is by design.

Don't feel like you have to jump to have a conversation or do anything with your mother.  You get to choose what you want to do moving forward, and that may include nothing, or nothing right now.  Take some time and think it through.  No one is on fire. 

"No one is on fire" should be tatooed on my knuckles so I can see it every time I get a crazy big ask.  Then, when I'm hemming and hawing and looking down at my fingers I'll see it!

[Cenerentola]

I feel as if there's nothing to discuss that hasn't been discussed already; if anything were to change in the relationship (not holding my breath) it would be from choosing to act differently based on what has already been said.

Can you tell her pretty much - this? I mean rehashing it yet again isn't productive - she'd work herself into a big ole snit and you'd be left with the debris as if it's yours to carry. Know what mom, I don't like it either but here we are. It's uncomfortable and dissatisfying on eleventy seven different levels. And I'm STILL not down for yet another pointless ramble to tell me the same things *yet again* and do nothing differently.

I get it, she's unhappy - why isn't that hers to deal with, just as it is with yours and everyone else? Why is it your job to pay her hand and "comply" to maintain her limited version of peace?

Idea: what if you're actually okay with the sheer peace of being apart, that the misery of normal interactions with her makes this worth it for you? I don't know all the backstory, but is that a possibility for you? That you're truly not interested in "more" with her, after everything said and done?

Part of the acceptance of who they are is accepting our own limits where they're concerned. The continual back and forth, black or white, all or nothing is exhausting. You're all adults - you've had to learn how to manage yourself, your emotions, your behavior and treatment of others. It's not at all unreasonable to insist on that with others. It's tiresome being dragged backwards through briars, pull them all out, only to be snatched up again later.

Live your life, @cerentola, as you would with any reasonable person. Maybe it's time to stop giving them special space.

That is, in the end, pretty much what I told her; I haven't heard anything since.  We'll see how long this goes before IDK what.

I think part of me is still struggling with the idea that she can't give more--can't be more reasonable, can't actually hear what I tell her in any real way, can't see me except as an emotional and ideological pacifier.  I'm just still having a hard time letting that register.  I keep expecting her to turn real like the Velveteen Rabbit or something ... And there's also the FOG from both her and dad about how I "used" to be so nice (i.e., to agree with M about everything!!!!!!!)  I was even told that the idea of being responsible for one's own feelings was "bad modern psychology" which left me feeling 

And on the one hand, yeah, it's true, there is such a thing as deliberately hurting someone's feelings.  When the mean girls at your middle school invite everyone to the party but you, they have *some* responsibility for how you feel (at least, that's my code of ethics).  So I keep asking myself: *Do* I have some responsibility here for how M feels?  And even though the answer is nopity nope nopers, the decades of being handed all the responsibility (and taking it on, because parentification and FOG) have apparently really done a number on my subconscious and the ruminations it sparks.