Phase 2

[square]

I've been out for a year. We didn't see each other much before I left, and after I left it became even less frequent. He still texts me on his break about once a week, but he really has no interest in seeing me. He is just in the same fog of sleep, work, and zone out in the middle of the night. Not really participating in life in general, just kind of wrapped up in his own world.

I no longer have to worry about avoiding him, and don't need to worry about what kind of mood he is in. Since we see each other rarely, he is able to act nicely for an hour if he spends a holiday with us (important to DD). With this low contact, we've had very minimal conflict.

So my brain just relaxed into seeing the best of him. I knew better but it was just what I did. And when ugly memories popped up, I did not want to face them. It also seemed pointless to go through that pain if I wasn't even with him.

So I lived my life and thought of him fondly and that was fine. I did notice his lack of interest but that was fine too. I didn't need more from him.

Well, one day he got drunk and texted me something nasty, apropos of nothing. Heck, I had just done him a very thoughtful favor the previous day but he doesn't really notice those. He said I was proof love didn't exist.

The thing is, it wasn't just an unkind thing to say. It just kind of popped some idea I had in my head. He really genuinely does not see all the love I have given him over so many years in so many ways. How patient I've been with him. How I've covered for his shortcomings and gave him every benefit of every doubt. None of it means a thing.

Whatever love is to him, he also doesn't have it for me. What he expects from me, he does not give. Doesn't even think about his participation, only mine. And I of course come up short in every way.

NC would create problems for DD. We're already LC. I can't gray rock because that would trigger him and everyone would be miserable and he could even decompensate. So MC it is for me, and I really have no problem doing it.

But I have to stop with my silly ideas. I know my my main problem is that I can't reconcile him into one person. He feels like two opposing people to me (and DD too).

But I've glimpsed the very beginnings of maybe reconciling him into one person. There are clearly a number of false assumptions I've made, some very tricky ones.

I've not come close to unraveling this, but I think.I found one end of the string.

[Rebel13]

Wow, square. It sounds like this realization/connecting of dots could have some big feelings attached. Or maybe not? Maybe the time apart has unloaded the situation enough?

Either way, definitely "phase 2" -- the next step on your journey. I admire you so much for making space for yourself to be safe and contemplate the dynamics as they occur to you.

Will look forward to updates if you feel like sharing.

[Trinity85]

Thank you for your post. I read this forum often, but don't often comment. Your words really resonated with me - especially:

"My brain just relaxed into seeing the best of him. I knew better but it was just what I did. And when ugly memories popped up, I did not want to face them"

and

"I know my my main problem is that I can't reconcile him into one person. He feels like two opposing people to me (and DD too)."

Whenever I see him, talk to him, read his texts, or see his social media, I can literally feel my thought patterns shifting in my brain - wanting to believe the version of him that I thought was real.

I've forced my self to read about neurobiology - to understand that my brain wants to default to its normal wiring - that trying to reconcile the two versions is exhausting - to know that my brain will never stop searching for a normal reason for the chaos.

I have had to force myself to remember all that he has done to me - I've even made a list to read to myself when I feel the shift happening. It is exhausting to fight this battle, and there are times when I want to give in, say f*ck it, and just embrace the dysfunction, chaos, and pain that he is. After all, it's not all bad, right? And sometimes it is actually good? But no. I want to be free.

Wishing you strength. 

[bloomie]

square - a year! Wow!!!! 

Well, one day he got drunk and texted me something nasty, apropos of nothing. Heck, I had just done him a very thoughtful favor the previous day but he doesn't really notice those. He said I was proof love didn't exist.

The thing is, it wasn't just an unkind thing to say. It just kind of popped some idea I had in my head. He really genuinely does not see all the love I have given him over so many years in so many ways. How patient I've been with him. How I've covered for his shortcomings and gave him every benefit of every doubt. None of it means a thing.

I think of alcohol as 'truth serum' or a gateway to the underbelly of what someone, who has allowed bitterness to sink into their bones, believes about others. It is shocking to find that that active type of hostility can coincide with extreme apathy, isn't it?

But I have to stop with my silly ideas. I know my my main problem is that I can't reconcile him into one person. He feels like two opposing people to me (and DD too).

I wonder... because he is part of your life package so to speak for the foreseeable future, if you are simply trying to find a way to see him as safe enough to occasionally be around and to continue to do kindnesses for in hopes to reinforce a tolerable atmosphere between you?

Just a thought based on something I have done.

[1footouttadefog]

The two separate people thing totally makes sense to me. 

I can relate to it as one being the false person that was presented and that I bought and fell for and loved and thought was loving me back.  The false person that I keep trying to get to come back and stay.  The false person I for far too long believed was the default person of only we could get back to that place.  We meaning me trying and giving and sacrificing more and more for.

Mine never truly love me as I did him.  That which I thought was love was him loving being loved.  It was him loving that I was buying that false version of himself.  One O knew what was under the hood we could never go back to that place and stay.  My knowledge of his true identity ruined it for him.  I could never be that girl again.  I could be a source of narc supply in oh so many other ways. Cooking , cleaning, listening to his repeated stories, etc etc etc.  but that love sparky thing died when I looked under the hood and saw a duct taped managerie of bicycle and lawn mower parts where a ferrari engine should have been. 


   

[Trinity85]

that love sparky thing died when I looked under the hood and saw a duct taped managerie of bicycle and lawn mower parts where a ferrari engine should have been.   

    

[SeaBreeze]

Congrats on one year out!

I'm sorry your ex does not recognize the love you held for him nor acknowledges your efforts based on that love. That disconnect is one of the more hurtful parts of loving a PD.

I recently saw ex for the first time since leaving 2-1/2 years ago. I felt some of the old attraction to him, and admittedly he looked good, but I did not act on it. It pains me, but to combat the "abuse amnesia" I mentally replay this one rather scary night with him that accelerated my exit date. He did not look "good" that night... Yes, it really is like 2 different people, to the point ex's 2 personas not only feel like polar opposites, but literally look different to me!? But as you know, that Jekyll/Hyde split is what led so many of us here to Out of the FOG. And reconciling those 2 sides of the same person/coin is a large part of our healing.

Here is to year two, Square!

[1footouttadefog]

I think a tangentially related part of healing is owning that most of us helped create the false persona we fell for.

Oversharing, being vulnerable, being codependent, having a defective red flag detector, being willing to overlook flaws, and so many other "flaws" or "weaknesses" are part of what we brought to the table allowing the false person they performed to be custom designed just for us.

It's often the case that they become someone else for the next relationship even if they look the same.  I know someone whose ex was a vegan with het and became a hunter for the next woman. 

[square]

Thank you all for your replies. I'm struggling these days to type on a screen, and I'm having various issues accessing a physical keyboard. I have thoughts and responses and hopefully I can get them out sometime soon.

[1footouttadefog]

When I type in a text box on an Android device there is a microphone icon upper left above the keyboard on the screen.  I can used that for text to speech.

[square]

I might have gotten the edge of this string so I'm going to try to pull it out a bit here.

I think love can be basically defined as wishing someone well. Wanting your loved one to be safe, to feel cared for, to feel content, etc.

I had kind of assumed my husband loved me sometimes. But looking back, I don't see that he does truly wish me well, even on the "good" days.

I think the central theme of how he sees me is:

She has it so easy. Her life is so easy.

From there that leads to:

She has no idea how much I suffer. She has no idea what suffering even is.

And finally, that leads to:

She should suffer. She should learn what it feels like to be completely destroyed. She should learn what it's like to be me.

If, on a good day that he was feeling as good about me as it gets, somebody came up to him and said, "wow, your wife really has it easy, right?" - I can't imagine anything he would say other than "yeah, tell me about it."

There is zero that he's said or done, ever, that I could imagine him saying "no, my wife has her struggles, what are you on about?"

That's Dr. Jekyll I'm talking about here. The one I've been seeing as someone who, at least deep down, loves me.

But he cannot love me if he sees me that way. And he does.

Sure, sometimes the anger about how I should pay, how I should find out, how I should suffer, dies down and it's not really important on a given day. But the premise, I am realizing, is always there.

There is something else that premise explains.

My wife has it so easy -> she should help me, and conmeasurate to how easy her life is, her help should be infinite

He really thinks I owe him some category of help, and  there is no behavior of his or limit to my resources or capabilities that he would see as a legitimate limit to my help.

It's important that I understand that these are his beliefs even when things are "good."

While his drive for me to "pay" does fade when things are good, the framework for that is still intact.

I cannot imagine a hypothetical conversation where he defends me to another person to say that I do have my struggles and do need and deserve support and help. Not to say he's never literally helped me in any way, he definitely has, but he just sees me as invincible. Or maybe with unlimited resources, like he's starving and I'm sitting on so much food some of it is actually rotting - so of course there would be no reason in the world I wouldn't share, I'd be unredeemable if I didn't, and appreciation would obviously not even come into play.

So that's the foundation: she has it so easy. I do think it's likely THE foundation where everything else is built from. And I think that it smutually exclusive from love - he wants to tear me down. But he also needs me, and sometimes he does feel good about what I provide.

So that explains "I hate you / don't leave me."

[Rebel13]

Wow, square. Those are some pretty clear insights! How are you feeling about all that?

[square]

Interesting question, Rebel. It sounds weird but I don't think I'm feeling much of anything about it. He already broke my heart. I already knew my mental model was flawed. And I already knew the conclusion, I just didn't know how the pieces go together.

I already knew I was alone, it's just nice being able to reduce the cognitive dissonance. I still have some, but this does help a lot.

I grieved this long and hard, for years already. It's a post mortem.

[MaxedOut]

Oh, boy, Square, the suffer-circle stuff is so spot on to my experience. My ex definitely views me this way, other family and friends this way, and at this point the world this way too. It is a hard reality to see and hard to wrap my head around.

There were a number of penny-drop incidents in the final year that drove this understanding home. For a long time I sort of brushed aside that knowledge despite hearing her talk often, and darkly, about it in regards to others, and to me when upset. And I think she still had periods/parts that didn't think of me that way, but less frequently a fewer over time.

And it frankly got scary in terms of how she would deal with others, including strangers, once she seemed to really live within that mindset. There were a number of incidents when security of some sort was called in during the very rare times she was even out in the world. And she definitely got to where she thought anything she did was justified, because of her pain and suffering.

I kind of went the opposite direction from you in post-split thinking of my ex (which comes with some guilt). I try and remind myself that I'm not the black and white thinker, the splitter. I have been comfortable over my life with complexity, conflicting aspects of people, dialectics. I just spent so many years suppressing anger, making excuses, keeping secrets, having abuse amnesia, that I think I've been playing a bit of catch up in letting all that out.

But I do not have a child in the mix, which would probably really change that.

Right after I left, my therapist said some stuff that really irked me. It was along the lines of "two people can be good but it still doesn't mean they should stay in a relationship" sort of normie "sometimes things just don't work out" pablum.

Given she had been along for the ride, very clearly called out abuse, and that I was getting mountains of abusive messages at the time... it did not feel supportive.

I think it was an attempt to head off any second thoughts knowing my habit of trumping my well-being with compassion for her. compassion. But hit real poorly.

However, the nugget in there that I have taken to heart is that regardless of what mix of characteristics, proportion of territory in their internal landscape, mix of natures, etc. our exes actually have: being with them is 100% not good for us. And I don't have to continue thinking about that stuff, I can put that puzzle aside because it does me no good.

[square]

I guess it's a real victim mentality. I was also thinking that framing me as having *no* suffering means he can be the sole victim, at least between us (he does acknowledge other people suffer at least).

Yeah, I brushed aside too, it seemed too crazy that he could actually believe it, at least when he was calm.

I don't think either your or I were engaging in black and white thinking so much as just processing. I mean, I was seeing things overly optimistically, but I wasn't switching between "he's wonderful" and "I hate him" - I guess I was just thinking he was so wrapped up in his own world (not thinking about me) that we could just think of each other fondly. I knew it was warped, but why not? Almost like thinking kindly of the dead, if he wasn't going to hurt me anymore, why not? And yes, we had to be nice and amicable for DD plus we did do each other a few favors, and I certainly would like to have someone I can call in a real pinch, and I've made sure to be that person for him too.

For you, you got away, and now you had a chance to feel what you could not feel before. Of course you're not going to be all balanced about that, you turn the spigot on and you drain the tank, at least for a while. It doesn't work any other way.

I'm irritated with your therapist too, what the heck was that? After all that, she breaks out a Hallmark card like she's your useless coworker and not a witness to your actual hell.

But yeah, we left situations that weren't good.

Even this evening I'm getting some frustrating texts from him. No, of course I'm not looking to engage, but trying to just.chill so it doesn't have to be a bigger thing - but I think unfortunately it's a thing for him. I was hoping we could sort of move on but he has once again, baffingly, flipped the script so he wants me to fix it. I'm not going to, was just trying to slide by without actually jumping to smooth it for him, but it's falling apart. Sigh.

[square]

Here's where I'm stuck. I want to just tell him I don't want to do this anymore and he can just hate my guts in peace without involving me.

The issue is that he's not mentally stable and DD lives with him. She does not need to deal with him falling apart, going into a psychotic state, suicide threats. He could lose his job and then lose the house. I just need him to stay at his baseline, which is not sane but not too bad, for DD.

DD moving in with me is not a solution because it's not about living with mom vs dad. The issue is she is somewhat autistic and that is the house she's lived in all her life. And my apartment has sensory issues she has trouble coping with, mainly noisy neighbors. She can't sleep here and frequently freaks out and has to go home.

Otherwise she spends all her time with me.

She needs her room in the house and she needs a somewhat stable dad that doesn't do weird stuff like burst into her room at 2am to say nonsensical stuff or be in this weird dark cloud that is pretty freaky. Or worse.

Ughhhhh. I still have to freaking fix this. I wish I could wash my hands of it and let him deal one way or another but ughhhhh.

[Rebel13]

Oh square. I'm so sorry. I want to say, as gently as possible, that I understand your feelings of responsibility for your daughter, and not wanting to be the cause of a flare of your husband's "issues"/temper/instability. But -- I'm sure you know this -- you CAN'T fix it. (Or control/change/cure or any other c-word it.) No matter how careful you are, it's possible something completely unrelated will set him off, and your daughter will be affected by proxy.

Unfortunately, like all adult children of problematic parents, she's going to have to navigate her own relationship with him, and figure out how to prioritize herself and meet her own needs. And that's a lifelong project. Ask me how I know.

So, if you can, give yourself a break from the self-recrimination, and if you want to make some space for yourself from him, it's perfectly fine to do that. You're not responsible for his actions/reactions, and it's so sad and difficult that they affect someone that you love.

[square]

Rebel, I will keep it in mind. I'm hoping in just a few years there will be some pressure released when DD starts her career and has more options of her own, and H pays off the house so maybe he won't completely drown financially.