Need some mentoring from those who have gone before

[Sojourner17]

Hi all,  in about November my mom asked me to tell her why I cut contact during a phone call I was having with her.  It came as I was wrapping up the call and I didn't know what to say so I didn't say anything.  I had told her about a month prior that I was not ready to talk. 

I'm still not ready and she is texting asking me to tell her why.  I feel like I'm in a loop and I want out. 

[Sojourner17]

Can I just say "I told you that I would talk about it when I was ready.  I'm not ready.  I have told you why in the past."

[Call Me Cordelia]

I don't remember why you were having the phone call, but you are certainly within your rights to not (ever if you so choose!) entertain that discussion with her. Very likely, as for most of us, cutting contact was your last resort after trying and failing for a lifetime to improve the relationship and it wasn't just something that came out of the clear blue sky that you just arbitrarily decided to do. It's almost impossible you have not tried to communicate what was wrong, but it's very possible that she is invested in not seeing your reasons, no matter how valid. This sounds like the classic circular conversation of WHYYYYYY? trying to start up. Or as you say, a loop.  You don't have to go for that loop.

There are all sorts of scripts you can go with. Your answer of a month ago that you aren't ready to talk is a good one. There's also the, "We've been through this and I don't see the point in going over it again," if that fits your situation. There's also just plain not answering, especially if you intend to go back to NC. Do you think there is likely to be a time when you will want to have a discussion with her about this? For many of us in this situation, no matter what you say or don't say, it's not going to be accepted or respected by your mother. So what you say or don't say is really for yourself. Go with what brings you the most peace and fits your moral code. Good luck.

[Sojourner17]

I'm leaning towards " I told you I would talk about it when I was ready.  I am not ready and cannot give you a definite time frame on when I will be. I will not be engaging any further to this line of conversation. Please do not ask me again."

[Sojourner17]

I'm feeling jittery at the moment.  I talk to my mom every two weeks.  This Saturday was supposed to be a phone call to her.  I guess if she chooses to respond in a less than stellar way I can just say that I see she is not feeling well today, I will talk to her again in two weeks.
?

[Sojourner17]

I know I have to do this myself and take responsibility for my decisions and actions.  I'm trying to find the courage and the strength to do it and accept whatever comes on the other side. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

You've got this!

[Sojourner17]

This is the main part of what I wrote when I went NC a year and a half ago. 

      I have noticed a codependence between us.  I feel threatened by you, your domination, intimidation and manipulation.  I know you don't mean to do it but that is how I feel. 

Now I'm seeing where it is enmeshment.  (I have not used this sentence in communication with her.)

I basically want to say: if you want any form of relationship with me to move forward you need to work on the above on your own without my involvement in the process. 

[Sojourner17]

Thanks CmC!  Even just the cheering on helps.   

[Rebel13]

Hi Sojourner17! I join CallMeCordelia in supporting you in communicating with your mom in the way that makes sense to you, or not at all. You don't owe anyone an explanation. You can follow your own values about communication (for example, valuing politeness and courtesy) and say whatever makes sense to you. You don't need to justify, argue, defend or explain.

You might also like to read the article on boundaries. Boundaries don't have to be stated. They're not requests for others to change behavior. They are acknowledgements, often within yourself, of what you will do if someone's behavior is unacceptable to you. A boundary isn't, "Please don't contact me about this again." A boundary is "If you contact me about this, I will _____." Then you do that thing if/when the behavior happens. So, if your mother continues to contact you after you have said, "I'm not ready to talk," perhaps the boundary is blocking her texts or sending her emails to a folder without reading them. Or, if you want to stay in communication but don't want to discuss a particular subject, if she brings that subject up, you can say, "I'm not ready to talk about that, so let's change the subject." If she persists, then you say, "OK, I guess this isn't a good day for us to talk. Goodbye." These are just examples; obviously you create the boundaries and statements that work for you, in your situation.

I hope that makes sense and isn't overwhelming! I get fired up because I misunderstood boundaries for so long and it's so freeing now that I really do understand what they are and how to implement them. I hope it helps you too.

[walking on broken glass]

I agree with both Cordelia and Rebel.
Please don't feel pressured to reply to her in a specific way or even reply at all. If you feel she is going to be difficult during the call, cancel the call or end it early.
No amount of explanation will ever make her understand your pain and take responsibility. And you don't owe her one.
No is a full answer!

[Sojourner17]

Ok the boundaries part helps.  I'm also thinking about the idea of being accountable for my actions. 

In her recent text she said I hurt her because I didn't stay with her when I came to the funeral and I walked away from her saying there were other people i wanted to visit with rather than  her. 

I didn't stay with her when I went to the funeral.
 
I counted the cost...and it was high.

 I don't remember saying there were other people I wanted to visit with other than her but at one point she pulled me aside and tried to get me to talk about the estrangement which was quite upsetting for me so I might have said something to that effect to get away.  Honestly, that whole day was one of the hardest things I've ever went through. 

I can see how those things mentioned above would be hurtful for her.  It probably caused shame and embarrassment.

How can I acknowledge the above while maintaining the "no I'm not ready to talk" line?

[walking on broken glass]

Is it possible to ignore the text and, if it comes up in the call, address it then and say something like 'I am sorry you here hurt, it was a very difficult day for me too', and then change the subject?

I say that because it is very easy for a text conversation to turn into an endless ping pong of 'you said' etc. which will upset you even more. Any response might be a window for your mum to air more grievances.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Pulling one person aside to talk about other painful things at a funeral must be in the PD playbook. I like what you said here! It was an extremely difficult day for both of you. Acknowledge pain but don't do the JADE thing. As to being accountable... Don't expect perfection of yourself while expecting to have to protect yourself at every turn from someone who has built up her whole psyche to dodge accountability. You're accountable to yourself only.

[Rebel13]

Oh gosh, Sojourner17, the hurt feelings thing! The last time I saw my mother, she spent an inordinate amount of time on how something I did hurt her poor feewings. The thing I did? Failed to show up at a time and place that she had convinced her own self I would, even though the actual time was two texts back in the thread and all she had to do was scroll and check.

I don't know your mom, but I feel pretty secure in guessing that, if you acknowledge her hurt feelings and try to move on, the goal posts will shift to some other thing you did wrong or some other drama. The purpose is to keep your attention and focus on her and trying to please her or fix her problems or fill her needs. The truth is, those things are her responsibility, not yours. My mom's hurt feelings were hers to get over, because I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG. And neither did you! You are a grown adult (I'm assuming), and you get to decide where to stay and who to spend time with.

We all sometimes feel disappointed, hurt, sad, etc. over things other people do, but people with good intentions don't use those feelings to manipulate others. We might let them know and ask them to do something differently. "I was sad that you didn't stay with me when you were in town. Next time, would you have dinner with me and sleep over at my house?" And the other person might still say no! They might not enjoy or value the relationship as much, and that's life. In response, the first person has a lot of choices -- find another friend who's a better fit, recognize the relationship is at a different level than they want and invest less, feel sad and move on, go to therapy, get a pet, etc. It's not up to us -- and in fact, it's not POSSIBLE for us -- to make someone else's life OK for them.

Situations where grown adults get hurt feelings over other grown adults making their own choices, and then wanting/needing to process the situation endlessly, are tailor made, IMO, for the faux apology "I'm sorry you feel that way."

Best of luck, Sojourner17. This is a hard journey. All you can do is your best, to be fair but prioritize your needs, wants, feelings, and self care just a little more than your mom's wishes. Let us know how it goes.

[Sojourner17]

Thanks all.  I talked with my husband about it last night.  I told him about her saying she was hurt and he said "too bad".

  I've decided to not respond and am making myself cue cards to help for when I call on Saturday. 

I'm sitting with a lot of feelings of guilt and generally feeling quite uncomfortable. My youngest sister is in crisis and asked for $.  When I contacted her to get more information she didn't respond.  Then two days later I got the text from mom.  Making the choice to not respond to mom's questions is hard when I have a sister not responding to me.  I know it's completely different but all this disconnect and lack of response/cut offs is very taxing. 

I'm feeling a lot of sadness, anger, grief and frustration.   

[Rebel13]

Yay for your husband! I'm glad he's supporting you.

The guilt is terrible! I think, the worse it feels, the deeper it's been grooved into us that we're responsible for someone else's happiness. That can take a long time to get past.

And you have the same choices with your sister that you do with your mom. If she hasn't gotten back to you, you have the option to shrug and say, "Well, I guess she didn't need my help after all!" Believe me, I know, easier said than done when you've been trained to be the responsible one. Have you heard the saying "fake it 'til you make it"? For a long time I told myself that it wasn't my job to fix everyone else's problems. Over and over. I knew in my head it was true, but it took years for the message to finally make its way to my heart and my gut.

Be nice to yourself and give yourself lots of compassion. You are doing a really hard thing.

[walking on broken glass]

Yay for your husband! I'm glad he's supporting you.

The guilt is terrible! I think, the worse it feels, the deeper it's been grooved into us that we're responsible for someone else's happiness. That can take a long time to get past.

And you have the same choices with your sister that you do with your mom. If she hasn't gotten back to you, you have the option to shrug and say, "Well, I guess she didn't need my help after all!" Believe me, I know, easier said than done when you've been trained to be the responsible one. Have you heard the saying "fake it 'til you make it"? For a long time I told myself that it wasn't my job to fix everyone else's problems. Over and over. I knew in my head it was true, but it took years for the message to finally make its way to my heart and my gut.

Be nice to yourself and give yourself lots of compassion. You are doing a really hard thing.

 

I fully agree with what Rebel says. Give yourself a break. It is very difficult to fight against what we have come to think as our character, but is actually learned behaviour.

Your question to your sister was totally valid. Her lack of response does not mean you shouldn't have asked but that she does not want to face questions (again, her issue, totally legitimate for you to ask what is going on) or that she may have found another way to deal with it.

[Sojourner17]

Thank you to both of you.  I realized yesterday/this morning that this whole thing has led to me acting and thinking quite violently towards myself.  Thoughts like "you are such a bitch!" Kept on coming to me.

 My mom has never come right out and called me that... she's used "nicer terms" such as selfish or how could you do this to me? You caused me xyz, how do you think this makes me feel, how would you feel if your son did this to you?

It's ME that's calling myself a bitch.  That realization is so shocking!  It's self harm. 

I'm just kind of sitting with that right now.   

[Rebel13]

Lots of virtual hugs and support if you want/need them. This is very hard work and you are DOING it.