Do I need to switch forums again? lol

[MaxedOut]

I feel this period of time so hard... We get to a sort of breaking point and know we definitely feel fed up with some extreme behaviors like being regularly screamed at and speak up about several and likely talk about them as examples of patterns like not being treated kindly or respectfully. The PD person sees and helps narrow the vantage point to one or two behaviors then tries not to do the thing (usually not a long lived effort).

We feel buoyed and heard but there are still plenty of signals that the true issues/change/understanding hasn't happened.

And we know we are still heavily moderating our behavior. Walking this tightrope while thinking there is progress! And real change! But as Hhaw mentions, real-real change... respectful treatment looks very different. We aren't afraid to speak our truth, do what is important to us, not feel attempts at control, feel welcome to be vulnerable, redirect a couples therapy session, push back on framing, etc.

The FOG has lifted a bit though. We noticed the thing they said even when not yelling that gives up the game. We can see the subtler acting out as the same stuff leaks in different ways

Example... after bringing up physical stuff with my ex she would stop herself... but often state things in a sort of mocking way... AND I started to notice, I'd get "accidentally" hurt more and in not normal ways... say not holding a tight springed storm door when we would leave the house so it would crash into me... stepping on my foot and continuing to walk over it "accidentally" when returning to the couch... tossing me something like keys, but when I wasn't ready and face ward.

Zad, I want to recognize and commend you for how you are approaching these posts. You talk about where you are at and what you are feeling and thinking and bring up specifics that run the gamut, from what you see that is encouraging to things that you observe running counter or things I suspect you aren't sure about but that trigger some sort of gut response. This is a really strong way to navigate things! And can be part of documenting and looking back on your own journey over time. Keep the good stuff coming - however and wherever the journey takes you in the different significant other forums. 

[hhaw]

Are therapists in place for the kids?  That's a good place to start....with both parents signing off on permission and letting the therapist know .....parents need to let therapy be child led. Not pdparent led.

HHAW,

You bring up an excellent point. So I am separated from my PDW and currently going thru a divorce. I have 3 children living with her. The girls have been in counseling for over a year now. My attorney requested the counseling records thru court and there is nothing substantive in the notes. The girls are upset with me for leaving, blaming me for the end of the marriage, etc... and perhaps because there is a ton of negative influence reaching their ears from PDw.

Since the well has already been poisoned, meaning the PDw and girls are in tight with the counselor, should I try to speak with counselor? From the notes, it seems like there is NO improvement in their status.

Thanks

I'm sorry, BTM ...I confused your message with Z's.

As far as child therapists go....I believe you can demand the girls stop seeing their therapist, as so many PDs end their children's therapy.

The thing about that is.....Judges prefer to keep the status quo in place, which is why putting good child advocates in place, in the first place, is so important, IME.

If you're seeing a therapist, maybe have your therapist contact the children's therapist, and check the temperature if the situation.....US that therapist a flying monkey for your stbx?  Does that therapist have any realistic understanding of the truth?

Sometimes, speaking with a hostile therapist blows up in one's face.

The flip side of that is .... irrational, hostile behavior from the PD, and flying monkeys draws attention to itself, often.

Sometimes it's exactly what SHOWS a court the reality of a pd situation, IME.

You have the right to contact the children's therapist.  I suggest doing it by email.....to document exactly that conversation.

You have the right to ask about your children, and the therapist's opinions....always keep it child focused.  Ask how you can support the childrens' healing in the best possible way......and ..  .
most importantly....have your documentation ready to deploy, in a face to face meeting, if you intend to attempt to educate this therapist IN ANY WAY.

You may not share all your facts, and "truths", without the ability to prove those statements, IME. Back everything up, as you go.  Document those conversations, maybe record them discreetly if your laws allow it.

I put together 2 notebooks with sections
1.  Child safety
2.  E mail
3. Texts
4.  Visitation
5. Medications

It was BEAUTIFUL, and I did it to get my civil attorney on board during a custody case, bc my attorney was tormenting me with disbelief, hostility and threats.  It was terrifying, and shot chemicals through my body that pulled together the very best of my evidence, filed it, perfected the copies for court, and PROVED the important facts of my case to my attorney, who continued to torment me, which drove me to document to the highest possible standards I was capable of.

Eventually, the court appointed therapist, performing psych evals on my children, was but bought off by opposing counsel, which was even more terrifying, BUT.....
that therapist crossed my attorney, who was majiry ticked off at the lies told about her.

This meant my attorney began fighting for my children, like they were her grandchildren.  By the end of the case, she rocked a courtroom in her cha cha heels, armed with legal file boxes of evidence she'd scoffed at, but finally understood the importance, as the PDs barfed out false allegations with zero documentation I had loads of.

The Judge ruled the day the last trial ended, and awarded me almost $100K in attorney fees.

The PDs stopped filing frivolous law suits, bc it cost them, and finally not me....money and humiliation.

The Judge saw the truth, with clarity, bc I documented the PD's words and actions......while remaining calm, child centered consistent mom.  The PDs showed the Judge how toxic and punitive they are, through their own actions,c which at first seemed like the death of my case, but turned out to protect my children, and guard them from that day forward.

I'm trying to say .... remain curious about everything.  Don't assume bad accusations and terrible false facts will gain traction.

Maybe ..
maybe.... it'll work in your favor.

Maybe. 

If you get swept up in panic.....just sit with it till you can act to counter whatever is happening.

Document document document.

 Make pristine copies for your files and file them. You'll need clean originals for court.  Make sure anything requiring filed and stamped copies are filed and stamped.  You can clean up marked documents by using white out, and making new copies.

Don't use highlighters on anything, and if you must, use the bright yellow highlighters only.


Finally, speak/explain your case as though you're talking to a 5yo child or a nervous bird.

Keep it soft, simple, and helpful....you want to state only documented facts for your listeners, not your feelings or opinions.

Your job is to give listeners facts, without expectation, so they have room to come to their own conclusions.

If you tell them what they must do, think or feel ..   they might actually sabotage and punish you
(Which is one reason my attorney punished me.)

So find a way to remain calm, if only in appearance and the way you speak.  Very short statements.  Let your documents explain for you.  Don't look eace your notebooks with anyone.  Keep breathing.

Your daughters will hopefully gain a world of wisdom through this time in their lives. They'll learn to handle toxic people with compassion... become aware of psych terms, and how to regulate their emotions OR recognize dysregulated emotions in others, it is hoped.

Through it all ....you remain calm, steady, consistently appropriate dad, and you ONLY speak about their mother with compassion, bc the girls understand themselves to be 50% Mom and 50% dad....and bc their mother IS disordered/making sad choices and bc you leave them room to be honest about mum.....if the girls aren't feeling defensive on her behalf.

It won't be easy.  It won't be over quick.  It will leave marks and trauma on everyone involved, so this becomes a situation of mitigating harm.  For yourself and children.

Get into therapy, if you aren't already in therapy ...choose a trauma informed therapist, hopefully with their own therapist and Buddhist leanings of some sort.  These folks have the chance to leave their egos at the door, and be as responsive to your situation as possible, IME.

Your children need good therapy too, but that's what you're focused on. Get calm.  Do your best.  Assume you're always being recorded.  Record everything you can.

Release expectations.
Be super duper kind to yourself.
Drop ALL judgement and replace it with curiosity.
Embrace radical acceptance NOW.


You have time to build a safe home, for yourself and girls.  Show them safety, appropriate vulnerability, how to take accountability, apologize and make corrections....show them a functional household and other ways if relating, so they don't grow up believing their parent's marriage/family dysfunction is normal/right/familiar.... and what they recreate in their own lives.

I wish you the best possible outcome, Mud.

[zad7242]

hhaw and MaxOut, I continue to thank you for your support, validation and advice! 

hhaw, in particular you led me to a new realization when you wrote (paraphrasing) if there was real change my wife would be using marriage therapy to discuss how she has caused us damage and asking for tools to stop. I know it's only been 2 sessions, but so far marriage counseling has been about how stressed she is. She presents to me that her individual therapy is about coping skills, stopping screaming, and healing from past trauma, but if the marriage counseling settles into a framework where she is the victim, either of me, life circumstances, or both, then that completely undermines what she claims to be doing in her individual therapy. I also like that you validated my desire/need to redirect the marriage therapy sessions if I think we are staying too far away from the issues that matter for too long. Again, I am trying to give the process grace as it has only been 2 sessions. She has put me in such as position of where I question whether I am being narcissistic if I speak out in therapy.   

[zad7242]

I'd also add that I don't think I want to stay in a marriage where my wife's goal is to be better at coping with my abuse. I think that is where we are at now. She is working hard on coping with her negative emotions but still thinks she has those emotions because of me.

[hhaw]

Z:

You're coming to terms with difficult facts in your marriage.

Being in relationship with your wife lead to you abandoning yourself.



Allowing her to promise you justice, then frame you for her disordered behavior, is a betrayal of yourself.

She's set this new narrative, for her abusive conduct....which is what PDs DO, and they typically convince at least one dumb bunny to believe their narrative.  In this case, it's the marriage counselor.

Imagine when it's a court ordered Psych evaluator, writing reports for the a judge, at $5,000.00 a go. Imagine the kind of hard evidence you'd need to dispute that.

 One day you'll understand that setting boundaries is creating safety.

 It likely feels selfish and wrong and scarilyvforeign, to consider, but that will change with practice, and self care, IME.

Try to rise up, a mile in the sky and SEE your situation.

What advice would you give your best friend, son, or daughter....if they were in your situation?


I hope you move through whatever comes, with economy if motion, resources and trauma to yourself, and family.

Doing what you've always done, likely leads to a long, expensive, dragged out court battle where you do more harm to your case than the PD lies. 

It's the grace, kindness and peacekeeping mission you carry inside you, as your life's directive.

PDs are willing to lie, cheat and steal, in order to avoid truth and accountability.  They often sacrifice their children, to the Gods of Hate and Vengeance, bc what's good for the PD is good for the children.  It's how their brains reason out the harm they do.

If you have the chance to mitigate harm ....consider pulling together a group of people you can count on for good advice.

Make a good plan, whatever that is, and lean on your cabinet members to keep you on track when it gets hard.

Remember, courts punish wishy washy litigants, and litigants lacking evidence to back up their stories.

The longer you allow your wife to control narratives,cobtrol the children, and therapists muddies the water, and manufactures chaos, IME.

You deserve to be safe. 
Your children deserve safety.

Getting the children into therapy, now, with guidance from your therapist, is important, IME. A Judge will want to keep the status quo in place.

If you do that one thing....esp if that therapist is good at testifying in child forensic psychology..... that's BIG.

Heck, let the marriage counselor muck around with your wife's story, but the compromise for attendance, by you, should be the kids in counseling.....get several names from your therapist, and let the pdw choose.

Good luck

[zad7242]

hhaw,

Thank you again! Today, during our 3rd session, our marriage therapist actually pointed out how reserved I have been in our first 2 sessions. He said he assumed either that I am disengaged or more likely that I am silently anxious that he is taking my wife's side. I have been mostly silent because I understand that the therapist needs to do grounding work with my wife before we can have meaningful disagreements about our marriage during a session. I also have been confident in the past that outsiders would see things my way if they were exposed to my wife enough. Your messages have served as a troubling, yet necessary wake-up call that I can't be complacent. That could really come back to bite me in very significant ways one day.

I would like your advice on another note. Whenever my wife and I have discussed divorce we both assumed and hoped for a no-default divorce after a year of separation. Two of the six children are mine from a previous marriage that ended in the death of my wife from cancer in 2018. After speaking to my attorney, I am not that worried about getting complete custody of them without having to prove anything is wrong with my wife. Two more of the six children are my wife's from a previous relationship she had. I am confident I would not be able to prove enough to gain custody of my stepchildren and frankly it's not my desire to have custody of them as long as I know they are safe with my wife and getting their needs met. They rarely have been the target of abusive. That leaves the thorny situation of our two biological children now ages four and two. I could do an at-fault divorce and fight for custody of those two or reason that my wife is a very good caretaker of our children and to the best of my knowledge does not engage in abusive behavior when I am not there.  Do you think it's realistic for me to try and navigate this with a "no-fault" divorce (keep emotions low if possible), get custody of my two children from a previous marriage, and move on confident that the other children probably are better off mostly in her care as long as I am not there to trigger her - versus make this an all-out battle (emotions high) where, in that case, she may even try to convince a judge she should have custody of her step-children.

To this point, I've believed that divorcing in a mostly "keep the peace" fashion may be best, if that's the best way to guarantee I don't have any issues gaining custody of my biological children. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on that!

[Rebel13]

I'm not a lawyer and haven't been in a relationship like this as an adult, but as the child of dysregulated parents, I would say, don't assume your wife won't mistreat the children just because you haven't seen her do so yet. She may have done things you haven't witnessed, and there's no telling what she'll do when you're not there to serve as primary target. I agree there isn't much you can do for the children to whom you are not a biological parent. But you've seen what your wife is capable of, and how she's knocked you off balance and made you question everything about yourself and your reality. Imagine what that will be like for children, whose nervous systems are still developing. Whatever you can do to minimize or supervise her contact with them will be helpful to them in the long run.

[Call Me Cordelia]

...reason that my wife is a very good caretaker of our children and to the best of my knowledge does not engage in abusive behavior when I am not there

If this is in fact the case, she would be a rare abuser indeed who only engages in abuse in the presence of an adult witness. 

I largely agree with Rebel. There is no more reason for rose-colored glasses. When the primary target leaves, abusers pick another one. If you can get ALL the kids in therapy, yours, hers, and both of yours, as hhaw suggested. If you have to fight, fight for the good of all six of those children. Let them be your guiding star. You are the one who's in their life and in any kind of position to set them up to recover from the trauma of mom/stepmom. One step at a time. Stay firm in your duty and resolve. The best you can do for those kids is to get to real safety yourself and become the stable presence you deserve to be.

I have not walked this walk, but if on the one hand you are trying to "keep the peace" and on the other are trying to prevent her getting custody, that sounds wishy washy. I think those are mutually exclusive goals just on the face of it. If you are set up to have full custody of your two children from your first marriage, I see no reason you shouldn't fight for the others. They matter just as much. I pray you get the right support to help you: lawyers, the priests who tell you to get out, mental health professionals, whoever you need.

Emotions will get high no matter what you do, imo, that is not you completely complying with your wife's agenda. And you've concluded you can no longer do that, as the cost is far too high for your own peace and the children. So the way I see it "keeping the peace" and "emotions low" is a pipe dream and impossible. Your wife is going to do what she's going to do. I really believe she WILL sabotage her narrative if you can stay the course.

I have written about this experience, not relative to you, but when I was wanting to go NC with my MiL I did exactly what is recommended for those who want to divorce a pwPD and documented the crap out of every interaction of a week long visit. She was on trial and I was gathering ALL the evidence. Just the fact of documenting things helped me to stay much more present than I previously would have been (dissociating, fawning, etc.). I was better able to stay present because it was imperative that I pay attention. I had a mission. By the end of the week I was able to try holding boundaries and testing what my MiL's response was. (Spoiler: She failed the test spectacularly.) I've heard it called putting on your Kevlar lab coat. It can work wonders to gain that mental and emotional distance that so necessary to start making decisions out of your prefrontal cortex, not your fear response. I hope that's helpful.

We do believe in you, as hard as all of this is! You are in good company with people here who have learned about the keeping of boundaries through incredible challenges and heartbreaking situations. You are too.

[MaxedOut]

Guess what happened with my ex when I was no longer around to be the primary target? It switched to the sibling who has been sacrificing so much to help and support her. The leakage and outbursts don't dissolve when the person they claim causes all of it is no longer accessible; it redirects and it would be unusual for that not to include in-household members if the person lives with others as in-household people tend to be where they feel the most comfortable being unmasked and letting the negative feelings out and most uncomfortable feeling guilt/shame so more likely to need to blame in order to soothe feelings of being "bad."

You already mentioned she talked about how the kids need to avoid making her yell-they are already being blamed and held responsible for her lack of control and her temper. Having split custody of your bio children would at least mean they have a place that can be normal, healthy, and safe. That will mean their nervous systems can relax, they don't grow up internalizing anger/control/negative space as normal for relationships and homes, etc.

Now that you are thinking more about the custody piece and documentation, it's a good time to get and read the book Splitting (regardless of how things go). It is by a lawyer specializing in divorces when one partner is high conflict/PD.

I am glad the therapist pointed out the talking piece but concerned a pretty obvious third reason could be at play (the most likely reason when a partner is verbally abusive and/or has PD): the non-PD person does not feel safe to speak out or express themselves. Whether immediate reaction, later verbal abuse, distorting and weaponizing what they say later, viewing needs/perspective in extreme ways that shut down dialogue or send then person into soothing/backtrack mode, etc.

As mentioned in comments, it is OK not to speak up and share your truth in couples sessions-often advisable when a partner has a PD.  I would still bring things up toward the end of my marriage but was super selective because at that point I had learned, more often than not, I would regret bringing things up because one way or another I'd get punished, or end up in a DARVO situation and comforting her/apologizing, or change simply wouldn't happen or wouldn't last. I did get better about picking what was worth the gamble and being much more clear (often related to no-JADE, and or boundaries) versus the sort of dialogue and mutuality that is important in non-toxic relationships. And simply taking responsibility myself for my own happiness and doing what I could do/ ended to do to improve that rather than expecting anything different from her.

I also really recommend reading The Verbally Abusive Relationship - besides the obvious relevance there is a really good foundational framing in there about Reality 1 and Reality 2 that I think will really feel important.

[hhaw]

Z:

Court....esp family Court with children's safety involved, requires a very high standard of documented proof to get more than 50/50 custody, IME.

They say "he with the best documentation wins," and that's not often untrue, IME.  Even if it is, Judges reverse themselves and one "gets another bite at the apple" in Appeals Court, but ugh 😩. It's so expensive, and the wheels of "justice" grind super slowly, and often on top of the children, should the bon PD parent fail to prove their reality, IME.

So.....if you can record conversations legally ...record everything with your wife.  Why not?  You might catch important outbursts, with you being calm, consistent, focused on the kiddos dad, right?

If you can't record legally, any recordings won't be legal in a Courtroom BUT, they'll clue in attorneys, therapists, friends and family chop chop.  I'm not gonna lie ..... it's amazing evidence.

IF you can use recordings legally, understand you'll be required to have relevant tapes transcribed, at your expense.  This means you're obligated to organize your tapes, as they're made, marking times and content of anything useful, bc keeping up with it, and erasing unhelpful recordings is necessary for organizing them, and keeping yourself level/on top of trial prep, which is meant to drive everyone insane.  Well.... it's meant to force reasonable people into settling, and everyone will eventually peg you as "the same litigant" and likely pressure only you, to give up everything in a settlement, so they can scrape their plates of your case, IME.

To my point.....3 or 4 very informative recordings of your wife raging/lashing out, making threats... that's more difficult for a PD to blam in victims, though she'll likely try....think about your being framed for "making her behave that way.". You must always remain calm, nonconfrontational and....
above all...
focused on sheltering the children from the adult struggle .....
focused on their ongoing mental health care ....
focused on compassion for your wife. After all....you married her, blended families, and made children with her.  Decent human beings care about mentally unstable spouses.  They have great empathy, always....
even if there's PD abuse and escalation.  That's your stance.

So..... you're pulling together an organized notebook of documentation.  Figure out your categories:
Child meds
Safety issues
Text messages
E mails
Visitation
Child exchanges
Witnesses/What they saw
You get it.

If you have really good documentation, recordings,etc....
You have a chance at putting protections in place, IME. Whatever that looks like ....supervised visitation for her.....for a while anyway.....sole custody, shared custody with you making sole medical/school decisions.....regular reports from the children's therapist....that sort of thing.

You're in a position to gage the level of escalation your wife is capable of.  Your gut will likely be pretty good at this, IF you accept reality and stop wishing and hoping for a peaceful outcome.

Some PDs are scorched earth practitioners.  Mine absolutely was, and all but a few wise and experienced attorneys/1 criminal Psychiatrist, dismissed my reality, which is why you have to SHOW your evidence, and stick to what you can prove.

If you have very little proof/zero proof .....you do what the best child d rensic psychologist told me 15 years ago.....
"Placate the PD, vest you can, till the children are old enough to defend themselves."

Now..... you're back in muddy waters with the PD, but you're documenting everything, and holding them accountable for every infraction.  You have them arrested for tossing the tv button hard at your face.....for any violence at all.  Install cameras....but you must prove your case, and I feel you must get the children as many advocates as you can....a therapist for certain.

Lots of moving parts.  Lots of stress, and learning boundaries and how to hold them.

Question: 
In general terms, what evidence would your recordings prove?  Are they somehow dated?  Are you calm and conciliatory on them?

I don't believe they're of no use, bc they're from past outbursts.

It's really difficult to parent, and document abuse!!!!  You were pushed to, out of fear, concern for the children, etc.  You hoped she'd change, bc she promised, but here you are.....the abuse continues.

If I could go back in time, I would have contacted a domestic violence organization....or many.

There was so much scalding shame....ooof.  I was paralyzed, and there were PD promises made, promises broken, ending in threats, assaults and everyone's world burned down (fig.) I muddied the waters by but filing for divorce, having him arrested and going No Contact from that moment forward, btw.  I was dismissed and punished in the justice system, community and friends/family circles.  I sabotaged myself and my ability to protect my children....bc I wanted to believe we could settle peacefully. That's pathologically unlikely for PDs, IME. 

Even though we went to marriage counseling..... eventually referred to a psychiatrist who headed up a criminal men's psych ward and wrote books on sociopaths.....bc our counselor was horrified and unable to pretend anything was ok. He scraped us off his plate.  Everyone wants to scrape high conflict cases, esp those involving children, off their plates, bc they're jaded, bitter, and everyone lies in family court.  Truthfully, they can't know who to believe, and most abused litigants attempts to leave their abusers 7 times, before finally going.

No one believes they're abused, when they keep going back, despite the statistics, btw.

So....here you are, with 2 little children.

What do you have?

Who's on your trusted team of cabinet members?

Keep them close.  Look at your evidence and make a plan.

Attorneys hate being made fools of in court....in front of opposing counsel.  They hate upset, dysregulated clients blathering on about insane PD behaviors, sans evidence to back it up.

Here's a clue....abused people tend to babble, when they finally start talking.

 Don't do that.

You're going to be the calm, consistent, organized father, who always speaks about the mother of his children with compassion and...
the "intention to help her be the best mother she can be.". That's good on recordings too, btw.

You're going to organize your evidence, rate it, and come up with very short blurbs about each item....speaking without expectation....
calm, slow, statements if fact, sans ANY judgement.

Remember, you must resist telling people what they must do, feel and think.  It leaves room for them to come to their own conclusions, and get angry on your behalf....to advocate for your children's safety, IME.

That's the game, and desperate PDs lie, cheat and steal ...  destroy your cherished possessions, threaten children/sometimes harm them, and worse.

Your clued in priests may know your wife and have helpful opinions.

Support can come from informed neighbors, family members, friends, and community members, teachers, day care workers ....people "get" your reality.

Don't talk to the flying monkeys and doubters.

The DIM thinkers will make you crazy, IME.
Denial
Ignorance
Minimization

They're try to undermine you, talk you into abandonung yourself and children's safety, IME.  They can't be logicked out of irrational beliefs, and some will KNOW the truth, but still here you back under control, bc it's more comfortable for them.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this, Z.

My girls were about your children's ages, when I filed for divorce.  I had zero idea what I was dealing with. Two years into our fiasco, they finally got a children's crisis therapist, but the PDs "handled" her for many months before showing the therapist who they are.

And, IME, they'll show people IF you avoid drawing negative attention to yourself.

You can't afford to sabotage yourswlf, IME.  Getting this right, as right as you possibly can, from this moment forward, is the best you can do, IME.

That's a lot, Z.  Keep breathing, and lean on your support people and the board.  Sit with discomfort, don't do what you've always done to relieve it, IME.

Just notice what comes up for you, journal, and keep a calendar with PD details for court.

This too shall pass.

[MaxedOut]

Excellent info from Hhaw. I'll add a few things I held close during similar pints:
- It's important to keep my side of the street clean. Hhaw mentioned how you talk to her and legal/court folks-I'd add text and email are super important too. Also, simple stuff like picking up the kids when you say you will or communicating clearly about changes.
- Exiting can feel overwhelming and made me feel it's not worth trying to... rescue yourself to be blunt. But we each get one precious life (and sounds like you have so much positive stuff going on and to look forward to). Staying just means having to go through it down the road when the costs (emotional, financial, to your children, etc.) are higher.
- Preparing for the possibility of things not working out feels itchy, sneaky, and hard while also working to see if you can change things. It was helpful leaning on therapists, friends, online resources, etc, to understand it's important in case. Better to be prepared and not need it than the reverse.
- You are outside of the home, which makes so many things easier, including documentation, grounding your nervous system, not getting steeped in your wife's reality and perspective, reconnecting with people and activities that are important to you, and just being able to imagine a different life. Protect that. Come up several phrases and practice them for when she tries to FOG you into returning. And it would be good to make a list of real minimum expectations to even consider thinking about returning and committing to look at it if you are considering it. This should not just be about your way but how you would expect to be treated in any significant relationship when considering living together. And how you would want your kids treated and considetions you would want for them in the future when they start getting into serious relationships.
- And think through and practice some phrases to deal with PD crisis demands until you are easily able to recall and use them when things are intense. PDs will use disregulation and manufactured crisis as pressure points for commitments. Learn to shut down demands for on-the-spot answers ("I hear you and will think about what your are asking. I am not going to answer now, but will get back to you." "A commitment I have made to myself is not to make any decisions without careful consideration. I'm working on that skill and this is a good opportunity to practice." "I'm feeling pretty emotionally activated so it's not a good time for me to think through a decision like that." "I'm not going to answer or commit to anything until we can both discuss it calmly."). A nice part about not living together is leaning more on text and email-it slows things, allows you to take a beat before responding, etc.

[zad7242]

All great advice!
In terms of documentation, I do have a few recordings from about 2-3 years ago that show outbursts and a a couple of religious based delusional rants.
My wife has almost caught me and asked me if I recorded her a few time so I stopped for a while. Things have been quite calm for the last 3 weeks since I moved back in and we started marriage counseling but I need to be ready to record again. I do live in a state where it's admissible with only one party's consent.

In terms of journaling I kept a password protected journal that I stopped using about a year ago, stupidly. I just figured out the password after hours of trying so I resumed documenting events since our separation.
With texts I have them saved, where she calls me a "brain washed rat" says "I hate you" and. "I hate men" across the years, and calls me a "garbage person" multiple times.

Finally and I almost forgot this, my wife recorded several episodes of a podcast this spring that she had wanted to start but has since quit. In one of the episodes I served as a "co-host" She interrupted me more than once, made a joke in the middle of me making a serious point and when I just kept talking over her joke, she paused,0 told the "audience" that she couldn't allow her husband to interrupt her etc.
After listening to the recording afterward, it was so obvious she was the one doing the interrupting and was quite condescending as we discussed a theological point we disagreed on. I listen to that recording when she makes me doubt my grasp of reality .

In her final recording she basically blasts me, with identifying information, and my family and hers. I have these recordings safely downloaded.

On a final note, our marriage therapist thinks January is too long for my wife to wait for her week long vacation (that was the soonest our nanny said she could watch the kids the whole week while I work) so she is taking a 3 day beach trip by herself next weekend.

[escapingman]

On a final note, our marriage therapist thinks January is too long for my wife to wait for her week long vacation (that was the soonest our nanny said she could watch the kids the whole week while I work) so she is taking a 3 day beach trip by herself next weekend.

Do I get this right, you ask for a divorce, your wife beg you to stop divorce proceedings and ask you to attend couples counselling to save the marriage, she admits to abusing you and you reluctantly(?) agree to giving her a second chance and she is rewarded by a beach holiday on her own.

I am astonished.   

[zad7242]

Escapingman,

Correct except there were no divorce proceedings yet. We had just begun the required one year separation before we could do a no-fault divorce.

[Rebel13]

Well, if nothing else, three days to herself ought to ensure she's rested on her return and has the renewed energy and determination to behave herself and respect all the boundaries and requests for improvement, zad. Right? Right????

[hhaw]

Z:

From posts, I assume your wife's been physically violent with you?  I might have that wrong?

[zad7242]

Hhaw,
Not very much and it's been a couple of years. She has dumped ice water on my lap while I was driving a few times but it's been about 2 years since she has done that. She has also "playfully" punched me in the arms, back etc that she thinks is funny but she has stopped that kind of behavior. Yeah I flinch when I sense her suddenly approaching but more out of fear of loud yelling than anything physical.

[MaxedOut]

[

Do I get this right, you ask for a divorce, your wife beg you to stop divorce proceedings and ask you to attend couples counselling to save the marriage, she admits to abusing you and you reluctantly(?) agree to giving her a second chance and she is rewarded by a beach holiday on her own.

I am astonished.   

Ding, ding, ding.

And is this instead of the week long vacay on her own or in addition to that?

I don't know whether to call this triangulation with the therapist but it is some industrial grade DARVO. Astonishing result.

I am traveling tomorrow and this is like getting kicked off the plane for being disruptive and yelling at people, admitting you were abusive, then parlaying that into a first class seat as an "apology" to make up for how upset and angry the legroom in general seating made you...

[hhaw]

Welp, Z:

You've got a lot to process.

Good luck working in couple's therapy.  Truly.  I hope you can work on boundaries, calm enforcement, and documenting the experience.

Whatever happens, you'll have done your best. 

I'll repeat this, bc it's the most important thing I've shared ....

There's 2 very different coping strategies employed by most people.

1. The WORRY WORRY WORRY strategy is really tough on biochemistry, shuts down reason and creative problem solving skills (CPSS)....is very expensive, with poor returns and outcomes, IME.

We all need access to reason, logic and CPSS! 

The preferred strategy is to do your best, put the story on the shelf, and turn to the joy in front of you.  In your case, your 4 children and 2 stepchildren need your very best self.

From experience, I can tell you...
if you can't find a way to be present with your children, in the difficult times, you will regret that loss profoundly. One day you'll look back and wish deeply to have back just one of these days to look into your children's eyes, and really SEE them....ask them questions....
engage with them. Do it every day.

Sometimes, I pretend I've gone back in time, to spend just one day, with my, young adult daughters.... bc I can't get back all the time squandered on PD struggles, when they were 2 and 4...
3 and 5......
4 and 6....you get the picture.

I really SEE them.  It's like flipping a joyful switch. I do things with them....things they love ...and sharpen my attunement skills mindfully.

I hope you find a way to live in the moment, sans regretting into the past, and fearing into the future.

Keep your head where your feet are.

The sky is blue.  The grass is green.  PDs are gonna do what PDs do. Oh well ....you can't control them, so focus on what you CAN control.

Accept everything, and try not to judge anything.

Manage the stress as best you can. Lean on your support group.  Learn which coping strategies work best for you, out of a thousand available strategies.....cold water on face/showers, deep breathing, crossing arms and gently patting your shoulders (like you're patting a baby), humming, deep gargling, touching grass/trees, noticing peripheral vision, journaling with a vengeance.....just find your best strategies and practice them, which requires mindfulness, bc as Max said.... it's difficult to change when under pressure.  I'm paraphrasing, but hope you understand.

Even if it's not ok....
it's ok, Z.

Don't let PDs take anything, you can control, away from you.

Play games with the kiddos. Plan Sunday brunches and get in the kitchen with them.

In fact, making all parent teacher meetings, going to pediatric visits, and scheduling one on one time with the kids is an option you might want to consider.

Joining your kiddos for school lunches is amazing!  Their little faces light up!  Bring an approved snack/treat for everyone!  You're a hero for the day.

Best of all, you're forging deep connections, the PD will have difficulty breaking, worst case scenario....
best case scenario, you're bonding with your kiddos!!! Doesn't matter what's going on, THAT'S the mission.  That's everything, Z.

[zad7242]

My individual therapist recommended that I stay the course in marriage therapy and don't look like I am quitting as soon as I don't like something. 

He did recommend that I address the issue of how I am giving this another chance only because my wife agreed she is verbally abusive and needs mental health treatment and that we have seemed to have lost track of that.

I am actually saddened he didn't recommend that I just get out but I'll do my best to play the long game and trust the process.