Do I need to switch forums again? lol

[zad7242]

So, after having been separated for less than a week, my uBPDw has done a 180 within the last 24 hours. Apologizing, taking ownership of her mental illness, saying she is embarrassed by her behavior, and she has done multiple online group therapy sessions over the last couple of days. My wife has made many other comments that would lead me to believe she finally grasps her distorted ways of thinking- things she has never admitted to before. Most remarkably she told me to have a good time at dinner with my parents this evening after years of trashing them and getting angry whenever I would mention interacting with them. I also like that she respects my desire to remain separated until things get better, she is not demanding we go back to being romantic or anything like that.

I agreed to start marriage counseling with her and we have our first session this weekend. I am hopeful, especially in regards to this helping my children. My body is also telling me to be wary. I love that this seems like a miracle but how rapid things change in her mind is disorienting and I always have to wait and react to it. I had shared with so many friends and family, that I had finally "gotten out" and now I'm trying to be grateful for her change of mind and behavior, while also feeling whiplashed by the change. I guess technically I should be posting in the working on it forum but I'll wait a bit for that- things could be way different again by tomorrow 

[Rebel13]

Good luck zad! It might be just me and what I am dealing with in my life right now, but please think about being cautious in the therapy process as you are being in the reconciliation process. So many of us have had the experience of going into therapy with hope and an open heart, only to have what we shared turned against us later. I hope that does not happen for you. But if this change is "the real thing" it will persist over time as the two of you work together to rebuild. There is no need to rush into anything. Take your time and acknowledge your body's wariness or other signals. Let her do at least 51% of the giving in the session if you can; it sounds like she has a lot of ground to make up.

All the best to you as you navigate this difficult situation.

[square]

I totally agree with Rebel. Be careful with your heart, but I hope it goes well for you. Keep checking in. Take things slowly.

[BeyondTheMud]

Zad, so what has happened???

[zad7242]

See the committed to working on it thread 

[hhaw]

Well....you didn't ask me, but I'll say what I've always said, since learning the hardest of hard ways, myself.

As you move through the therapy discussions,and any changes in separation logistics......
remember this is a negotiation, largely, for your children's benefit, IME.

What do your children need, to be safe?  To get support?

You likely have a small window to get what you need, before angry, punitive blowback begins on the PD's part, IME.

Are therapists in place for the kids?  That's a good place to start....with both parents signing off on permission and letting the therapist know .....parents need to let therapy be child led. Not pdparent led.

My therapist said we needed to hammer out money and custody agreement BEFORE meaningful marital counseling could be attempted....all trust and safety had been lost....needed to be restored in the way that made sense, in our case. Every case is different, of course.

This action would be considered the bare minimum before I consented to joint therapy, and considered dropping the divorce.

Had my stbxASPD, done what was promised, with money and children, it would have sheltered the children, put Therapy in place, and saved time, trauma and expense, which would go a long way to heal pd abuse and trauma, IME. It would have meant my stbxASPD was capable of being a safe person and parent, which was the impossible goal.

IME, the PDs promise the world, then give only the stick....becoming angry when pressed to follow through, while we keep our promises, and weaken our positions, generally, but mainly in court, and ability to shield ourselves and children, IME.

Boundaries,and consequences should be your shield....and your children's.

Likely, this nice-reasonable-pd-persona will last as long as it takes to back you out, of every hard won yard, you've managed to crawl.

Don't give up a single inch, without getting a yard from the PD, IME.

Soon enough the PD will need to  punish you for "making" them pretend to be reasonable and kind.

Of course, take the above with a  shaker of salt.

And figure out how to stay level through this.  It's difficult,to sit in nonjudgmental awareness, while one's children are traumatized, but that should be the goal, IME.

To calmly respond, and be responsive, instead of driven into reactivity by the PD.

And.... remember to be present with your children....to really look them in the eye, plan joy, and put the difficulty on a shelf for that time.

Not sure how old your kiddos are, but I wish you the best possible outcome.

[MaxedOut]

 

[Call Me Cordelia]

I think that's excellent perspective from hhaw. From the children's point of view, time is trauma. The longer your wife plays games around marriage counseling, you go back and forth on separating or not, taking years of therapy to just make you able to get through the days in your marriage... the more trauma they experience. Four years of your life is proportionally much more impactful to a small child.

Putting the children first will steer you well. Use your resources to their benefit.

[escapingman]

Listen to hhaw, I could not thank her enough for all her advice and support during my own divorce with PD exwife.

[BeyondTheMud]

Are therapists in place for the kids?  That's a good place to start....with both parents signing off on permission and letting the therapist know .....parents need to let therapy be child led. Not pdparent led.

HHAW,

You bring up an excellent point. So I am separated from my PDW and currently going thru a divorce. I have 3 children living with her. The girls have been in counseling for over a year now. My attorney requested the counseling records thru court and there is nothing substantive in the notes. The girls are upset with me for leaving, blaming me for the end of the marriage, etc... and perhaps because there is a ton of negative influence reaching their ears from PDw.

Since the well has already been poisoned, meaning the PDw and girls are in tight with the counselor, should I try to speak with counselor? From the notes, it seems like there is NO improvement in their status.

Thanks

[hhaw]

Z:

You wrote:

So, after having been separated for less than a week, my uBPDw has done a 180 within the last 24 hours. Apologizing, taking ownership of her mental illness, saying she is embarrassed by her behavior, and she has done multiple online group therapy sessions over the last couple of days. My wife has made many other comments that would lead me to believe she finally grasps her distorted ways of thinking- things she has never admitted to before. Most remarkably she told me to have a good time at dinner with my parents this evening after years of trashing them and getting angry whenever I would mention interacting with them. I also like that she respects my desire to remain separated until things get better, she is not demanding we go back to being romantic or anything like that.

I agreed to start marriage counseling with her and we have our first session this weekend. I am hopeful, especially in regards to this helping my children. My body is also telling me to be wary. I love that this seems like a miracle but how rapid things change in her mind is disorienting and I always have to wait and react to it. I had shared with so many friends and family, that I had finally "gotten out" and now I'm trying to be grateful for her change of mind and behavior, while also feeling whiplashed by the change. I guess technically I should be posting in the working on it forum but I'll wait a bit for that- things could be way different again by tomorrow 

Your stbx seemed willing to take responsibility, enter therapy and work on accountability.

Accountability, imo, would have to include:
1.  Writing out what she's done, explaining what she'll do to make corrections, and do better going forward.  She'd ask for forgiveness while asking you what requirements you have, if any, for your forgiveness and considerations outside divorce.

2.  Never drop divorce proceedings, or agree to do so, based on a PD's promises.

3.  I'd require your stbx to sit down with you,candy your daughters, and explain her mistakes..... explain you aren't a bad father, and any problems are adult problems....not children's problems.  Stbx will be fine,as will you, no matter what happens.  The girls will be cared for,and free to love both parents,who will always love them, no matter what, always and forever.

No stbxpd should be extended a grain of grace, without first undoing some of the interpersonal terrorism committed against the children.

Parental alienation is abuse.

The therapist stbx chose can be her therapist.

You should select a marriage counselor, referred by your T, and they should communicate.

You should select a new child therapist for the girls, based on referrals, and direct that,case well.

If your stbxpd into ends to follow through with her promises....
If you intended for her to follow through.....
it seems obvious she'd follow through in a meaningful way....as suggested above.

If her actions, with the marriage counselor, are indication of her intentions.....you have your answer as to intentions.

If she's unable to steer a healing path, it's up to you to get down to it, make your list, state your boundaries, and consequences so it's clear to everyone.

Your wife cannot be allowed to pretend apology, while still painting you black to the children, imo.  That's a huge no go....the very least required of her, imo.

I can visualize your entire family having 3 or 4 family sessions with your therapist.  I knew w I saw my children's therapist with them, and they saw mine.....on occasion. Having someone who understands family dynamics helps keep everyone honest,cand on track.

If this seems impossible, maybe resign yourself to the divorce, toot sweet.

I'd be chuffed to have the PD write out statements admitting to the abuse, alienation, and promises to remedy both.....if that's all you can get.

If you manage to acquire new child advocate/s, in a therapist who's allowed to SEE the truth....mao much the better.

You're at least improving your ability to protect the children in a courtroom.

PDs often are pathologically unable to settle anything, IME.  Not their fault, but you see what you're up against.

Get her to admit to parental alienation....admit to abuse in the marriage.....make statements to the children and therapists before giving her an inch.

Remain separate.  Keep the divorce in place.

She's asked to earn your trust and forgiveness.  I suggest you require it,even if it's unfamiliar, and uncomfortable for you.

Stay on this board, at least until your stbx meets the basic requirements....whatever you seem them to be.

But make sure your position is strengthened, and hers diminishes, with regard to protecting the children in any custody and visitation Agreement, to include therapy with an informed child therapist/advocate.

Your children need you, to do what their mother, cannot.  If stbx was healthy, she'd protect her girls like a tiger.

She hasn't, bc maybe she can't, bc she's broken, and she won't do better bc she would have, if she could. Acceptance is a balm, IME.

So, your job now becomes mitigating harm, to yourself and children.  You can all learn valuable coping strategies, and how to hold love for unwell people....who make sad choices.....even when they harm us. Your girls can grow into wise, steady women, educated through this experience, IME.  My daughters have.

Your stbx needs to own up to making sad choices to the girls.  In age appropriate language, your Therapist can help with, IME.

THIS is the bare minimum, ime.

That, and your being present with your girls in joy l, speaking about their mother with compassion, always, and giving the girls permission to focus on their jobs.....school, chores, and discovering their passions.

Any talk about adult things is not appropriate.  The girls need to know that, and have permission to dismiss it.

P.S.  Your stbx and you should sit down with the children's therapist, stbx's admissions in writing and have that discussion, so the therapist is clued in appropriately, imo.

Or......hire anithrr Therapist, as I mentioned above.

Good luck

[zad7242]

hhaw,

Thank you again for your advice across categories on here. The most accurate section for me to be on right now is the committed to working on it, although I'm not enthusiastic about it. We are technically calling ourselves separated (I don't wear my ring, we haven't shared a bedroom in years), but with a goal of reconciliation, not divorce. My jurisdiction requires 1 year of separation for a no-fault divorce, and I know that by engaging in marriage counseling I am pausing, if not eliminating that countdown. I have an attorney, but no separation agreement has been composed nor any divorce litigation filed.

Our children have never been in counseling. I think that's a great idea and I'd like to have a conversation about that with my wife and our marriage counselor and see what her reaction is. To date, we have had 2 marriage counseling sessions, and she has a new individual therapist. The results so far have been:

- Marriage therapist telling us that it doesn't sound like my wife has BPD but has experienced past traumas (definitely true) and is overwhelmed as a stay-at-home mom of 6 children (blended family, 3 boys and 3 girls, ages 11 down to 2 years old) who also home schools them.

- According to my wife her therapist is telling her that her psychosis and mood symptoms are likely the result of lack of sleep and past traumas.

- Self-care, focus on sleep etc. for my wife is where our starting place needs to be primarily.

- My wife believes that I have no reason to seek her forgiveness, and she said she will have to "swallow" the prior ways I have hurt her if we are going to move forward in our marriage. She became angry when I told her I might have to "swallow" injuries as well - again she doesn't think she did anything to hurt me that warrants me being frustrated with her. All of this while telling our therapist that there is DV in our relationship and she is the cause.

Her pattern is to apologize "I know you are going to leave if I don't change." when she is worried I am out the door. The more secure she feels that I am not going anywhere, the more the blame shifts back to me....

[MaxedOut]

That last paragraph is great insight, Zad.

I am sorry she doesn't think she did anything that warrants you being frustrated with her yet thinks she'll have to swallow ways you have hurt her.

That is incredibly hurtful (and familiar). Even if just to and with yourself, it can be good to let yourself just acknowledge and feel the hurt of that (we tend to switch too quickly to frustration, resentment, etc. as adults and skip over the base feeling that it is just ouch).

My ex often felt the same and punished me for years about certain things when it was not ok for me to even bring up recent things (that would shock many as behaviors) for repair and acknowledgement.

It also indicates to me, that to your wife (once she feels secure) may require that the dynamic of "reconciliation" means you caregive like crazy, swallow all the reasons you left and what she put you through, and prostrate yourself for leaving her/hurting her/individuating/being a "bad" person/husband/father etc. And is able to use the couples therapist as a lever to confirm that "you should be willing to x, y, z if you are committed to the process."

If it takes a year of separation then it seems like there is plenty of room and runway to undo a legal separation. If your wife's feelings weren't a factor would you like that clock to still be ticking, knowing you can stop it whenever and would hopefully know within a year whether you do indeed see what you'd require to stay in the marriage? I don't see a conflict inherent there, if anything a motivator to work on things.

[Call Me Cordelia]

What I'm seeing from your list above? Your wife can control the situation by not coping well. You are putting everything about your and your children's needs on hold to prioritize her sleep, her self-care, her mood symptoms. You've said in the past she has a pattern of creating overwhelm (overcommitting, getting in interpersonal conflicts outside the family, taking the kids' behavior personally, etc.) and then demanding all this special consideration because of that overwhelm of which she is now the victim. Nice switcheroo. Well, that's been working for her. Here you are. Talking in marriage counseling about wow wouldn't she like a week's vacation all by herself and zad I suppose will hold your life together, never mind that really he wants a DIVORCE. This is a pattern and you will be holding her life together as long as she can get away with it, it my opinion. I predict that as soon as you refuse to go along with the program, she will pull out all the stops. When she does, please document the heck out of it and bring it to your lawyer.

[square]

Talking in marriage counseling about wow wouldn't she like a week's vacation all by herself and zad I suppose will hold your life together, never mind that really he wants a DIVORCE.

Quite the switcharoo indeed.

[zad7242]

And that's the quote I'm stuck on. I am not supposed to want a divorce if things are calm overall and she is taking steps to care for herself better, even if that means she gets a vacation by herself. It's the Catholic guilt thing. Irony is priests have been the some of the individuals the quickest to tell me to get out. Just feels like if she does have a sickness it is my job to hold things together as long as conditions aren't dangerous at home.

[hhaw]

It's a dizzyingly unhealthy ground you stand on, Z.

Almost impossible to think logically on that terrifying bluff, IME. Difficult truths go in and out of control.... it's a terrible reality you're beginning to face, IME.

I don't post on the Working On It Board, so I will say this here, again, for clarity:

Documenting your circumstances, as best you can, will only help you protect your children, if protect them you can.....should you need to.

At this point, your pdw has called your bluff, and you failed to hold her accountable.  She knew you couldn't/wouldn't do it. That's why she promised.

You're about to spend unnecessary time, expense, trauma, and harm to your children, bc you didn't document your case when you're wife was willing to admit her actions.....in order to get you back under control.

She's always gained your compliance.  She has zero reason to believe you won't always give in, bc you always have.  Likely, you'd still be in the home if she didn't throw you out. That you didn't run back, begging, meant she had to change things up ...make empty promises.  She did that.  It worked.

But properly documenting, Z.... you're obligated to DO, to your best ability, bc you're responsible for protecting children.

Pretend you'll never use it, but get it.....like you're a lion protecting his cubs from harm.

Just file it away,and consider stopping muddying the waters and allowing pd chaos manufacture. Courts HATE wishy washy litigants who file divorce, then drop, then file.  They feel compelled to help only those who know their truth, and walk it.

You'll be interested to know, the courts typically, IME, feel obligated to punish wishy washy litigants,c who lack properly documented cases that "square up." Your pdw will tell a story that at least makes sense.... she's telling it now, and it's a good one, imo.  Lots of court officers will think so, particularly if your story is bothering, sans proof, with the kiddos siding with mum.

People with healthy boundaries have limits, set consequences, and hold harmful people accountable. The court expects this behavior from people in abusive situations....as a bare minimum, IME.

Ask Escaping man.

Even better.....

Go read the co parenting with PDs board. THAT'S an amazing resource for you, Z.

As always, I wish you the best possible outcome for your children.


P.S.  almost everyone on this board made most of the he self sabotaging mistakes, bc we give grace, desire peace, and never learned healthy boundaries.  That doesn't mean we can't begin making different decisions, in order to get the best possible outcome.

Maybe ask your wife to write out everything she did to you and the kids, so you understand she knows what you're upset about.

That way ....
::wink wink::.
you can forgive her, kiss her like you've never kissed her before, and "drop the divorce."

She made that just write out that apology letter to you.....and take "accountability."

She won't expect you to require she mean it, heal it, or stop her from terrorizing you for making her pretend to be sorry.

But you'll have that evidence, just in case.

Also, go ahead and make safe things you can't replace....that you value and your wife knows you value.

Somewhere she can't reach it/find it.

[square]

I am not supposed to want a divorce if things are calm overall and she is taking steps to care for herself better, even if that means she gets a vacation by herself.

"I am not supposed to want a divorce" - is this the Catholic Church speaking, or your wife?

If it's the church, that's something you can look into. There are lots of great discussions here on that matter. I'll set it aside for now.

If it's your wife... well, let's address that here.

She doesn't get to decide when it's okay for YOU to be done.

You're allowed to be done even if things are "calm overall." (And how much of a load are YOU carrying to make sure things are "calm overall," and how comfortable and safe do YOU feel while you are carrying that load?)

You're allowed to be done even if she's "taking care of herself better," whatever that means. (Sounds like that load is also on you and the kids, and there's the ever-looming threat that hangs over it that she might stop cooperating with this endeavor that is placed largely if not entirely on you)

You're allowed to be done even if she is trying to improve things. Because she may have already broken the marriage and broken the trust, by committing acts of violence against you, by manipulating you, by beating you down emotionally, by calling you names, by using the children against you. She doesn't get unlimited chances.

I know she thinks she deserves another chance, and another, and another. And she doesn't really think she's done anything all that bad. And if she has, it was kind of your fault, and also she might have BPD so she can't help it...

You're not going to get to a place where she says "yeah, I see your point, I think you did the best you could in this marriage and it's just not working." So if you're waiting for her to see it your way, it's not going to happen. But she doesn't have to see it your way for you to be right.

It's the Catholic guilt thing.

Yeah, I hear ya, I'm Catholic too. I'd like to know how much effort she's putting in to keep YOU calm? You're thinking about all the things you owe her: helping her, calming her, making sure she is taking care of herself, making sure she's happy, being a good husband. How much is this weighing on HER to do for YOU?

Just feels like if she does have a sickness it is my job to hold things together as long as conditions aren't dangerous at home.

Conditions ARE dangerous.

First, people who use physical abuse to control others continue to have that leverage even if they ostensibly stop. Zad, will you ever forget that she COULD do whatever it is that she has previously done? Will that not continue to affect your choices moving forward? Will that not continue to create a level of fear or trepidation that may influence your behavior - in other words, act as a means of control?

And regardless of the physical stuff, the rest counts too. Do you ever feel really safe and relaxed? Or are you always on guard? In your own home? In your own marriage? Next time you walk into a room and she's in "that" mood or has "that" look on her face, or you hear "that" tone in her voice, is your heart going to beat double time, are your palms going to get sweaty, are you going to feel a tightness in your chest, are you going to start fumbling with your words because your brain has kind of locked up?

It's not your job to drown with her. There are situations where a spouse needs help, and you swim out, and you help them back to shore. And then there are situations where you swim out and she just pulls you down and it was all just a sad waste.

I'm not telling you what to do, zad, I'm just telling you different ways of thinking about things.

[zad7242]

hhaw,

You make many great points, your point about courts believing her story if its coherent and the children likely siding with her if I am not documenting things truly sticks with me in a profound way. A couple of years ago I was documenting things very well in a journal and I even recorded a few of her screaming episodes. I'd consider that evidence dated at this point, so I need to resume doing that. My wife did state in a text when she was trying to get me back 2 weeks ago "I am very verbally abusive....I admit it to myself and my therapist but nobody else..." I'll make sure I have a message like that copied to a document in case something happens to my phone.

I guess I am still holding out hope that she has not made empty promises this time. Like I've said she is doing a different kind of therapy, marriage counseling, and she hasn't screamed in about 3 weeks. Plus she seems to using other coping skills to stay calm. However, her calmness has not been put to the test at all yet by me asking for anything I know she would not approve of.

square - I really appreciate your perspective. I imagine even under the best of conditions it would take years for me to fully recover on a visceral/emotional level from the damage done, even if I have cognitively accepted that she has changed much sooner.

For right now, I believe that she has given me enough evidence to show she is actually helping herself row back to shore and not relying 100% on me, but we will see.

I'm emotionally punished for even visiting my parents and their 50th wedding anniversary is in 2 weeks. If I'm so confident about her change, why am I too scared to tell my wife that I am going to visit them for this occasion? It would be the first significant test of her commitment to change, yet I still find myself locked up. I tell myself either she will have a great response and that will be encouraging or she will blow up and I'll save time and be out.

[hhaw]

Z:

If your wife was serious about her "accountability", she would've made couples counseling about her transgressions against you, and the children.

She would have owned up, explained why she did those things, been vulnerable, and asked the Therapist to help her learn how to regulate her emotions, so you aren't obligated to.

And......your wife would have let you speak, explain your experience, the trauma, and ongoing concerns about future abuse, and effect on the entire family system.

I base this in the statements she made to you......and her promises.

She might not be aware she's manipulating you.  Likely, she isn't, but you seem embroiled in a trauma bond situation with her.  That's a rough tough spot with children involved.  THAT will be your childrens' baseline, for "healthy" relationships, in their own lives, bc that might be all they know. Think about that.

Whether you model something different inside this marriage, or in a safe, calm, healthy household else where....consider your children repeating your marriage.

Again, getting the kids into therapy, with a Therapist you and your Therapist select, and guide, is HUGELY important, no matter what happens.....for reasons I won't go into now, but trust me.  It's bigger than you can imagine, IME.

I'll also say this .....your wife doesn't have you completely back under control.  That's why she's bothering to do anything at all.

You've allowed her to control, and morph therapy into reasons for her to not be perfect....into reasons for you to stop holding her accountable......into reasons she's struggled and been unsupported by you....you, who didn't his weight, or care about her and kept her stable.

Where's all the reasons she agreed to therapy?  Where are your issues, and where's your safety, and help dealing with the abuse you've suffered?

So far, your wife got a documented vacation, and that's ALL therapy has accomplished.  This therapist isn't in the ballpark you play in ...and that's how your wife will keep it, IME.

Buck up.  For your children.  If your wife can change, it will be bc you put boundaries in place and held pdw accountable.

Your her best chance, at getting better, is holding your wife accountable hold my pd accountable for
every
tiny
infraction
she
commits.

That's what I failed to do, and how things got so bad.  My inability to stand firm, and protect my basic right to be treated well, always. People do that, Z!

I got confused , instead of recognize the negative slide into dangerous physical and emotional abuse.....in front of our children, and to our children, bc I didn't want to understand what was happening.

On me....and I can't go back and do it again....but I can shine a light down the path you're on, bc I've been there, done that.

I won't lie.... it's terrible to face the truth, give up hope, and do things I didn't know how to do....stand up to an abusive spouse, with so much access that our children.  Oooof.  So painful.

I only did it, bc he drove me to it, with an emotional blowtorch, and terrifying threats.....bc I refused to comply.  We'll see how your w handles your visit to your parents, btw.  I suggest telling her at your next marriage counseling appt.....and recording conversations again.  Better to text, but recordings are helpful too, IME.

I looked like an emotional wreck blabbering my reality to lawyers. 

Think ahead ....look at your new and old evidence, formulate your story around ONLY that, and tell that story.

::nod::.

Calmly, without judgement, sans any expectations for what listeners will do, think or feel.

THAT is key for explaining your experience to everyone you explain it to, IME.  The therapists. Court officers.  Police.  One day, your grown children, perhaps.

But cover your kiester, bc you'll be glad you did....likely.

Again, good luck.