Started marriage counseling not sure what to think.

[zad7242]

Hello,

We had our first online marriage therapy  session. I'm dealing with a lot of inner turmoil because I had finally gotten out after 5 years with my verbally abusive uBPDw. A week later she apologized for many things and began some intense group therapies along with us starting marriage counseling at her arrangmemt. I'm supposed to be thankful and hopeful right?

Anyway, during our first session yesterday my wife bravely admitted that she is the perpetrator of domestic violence in our marriage in the form of emotional abuse. However, moments later when summarizing the session, our therapist told me "giving ultimatums is not a marriage. If you give your wife an ultimatum that she has to stop yelling at you, you are not taking responsibility for your role and you are saying your wife is the problem" I get where he was coming from, at the end of the day we all play some kind of part for why we are where we end up, but to ask the recipient of abuse to not draw a sharp line in the sand was a bit off-putting. I'm not emotionally shaken by this. I know it was only one session and I'm going back next week, but just curious how this approach by a therapist would have been received by others here. Thanks
 

[escapingman]

That would be a massive red flag for me, I would look into changing therapist to someone who has experience of domestic abuse and PD behaviour. I wonder what he had suggested if the shoe was on the other foot and you were the perpetrator.

[square]

I'm not emotionally shaken by this.

I'd be emotionally shaken.

[Rebel13]

Yeah not cool, especially after she just said she has been emotionally abusive? Also, a boundary that protects you from abusive behavior -- "if you are shouting at me I will leave the room until we can talk calmly" is not an ultimatum.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Why are you supposed to be thankful and hopeful?

And yeah, you aren't convinced you have a marriage and emotional abuse is the problem. You are saying if she can't stop yelling at you, that is emotionally abusing you, you are out. I suppose that's an ultimatum, but I'm thinking so what if it is. You got here over five years and there are unacceptable things, even in a marriage. Your role has been putting up with it as long as you have? I'm sorry I am trying to see where he's coming from and failing utterly. It sounds like he may be telling you if you want to keep the marriage you have to put up with her yelling? And his job is to save the marriage at all costs?

[zad7242]

I wonder if he just wasn't sure he believed there is DV in our relationship or maybe who is doing it. I mentioned to him that she has consistently tried to convince me that I am a narcissist and she admitted that she suspects she has BPD. He said "if the labels you are giving each other are true, why are we even here?" Maybe he thinks it's possible I could be the one with PD and she is a victim but has been manipulated into thinking she is the abuser? IDK. He also didn't like that I had an ultimatum regarding having a relationship with my parents. He never asked for my perspective on it though. Probably thinks I told my wife "my parents are coming over for Christmas and Thanksgiving whether you like or not" when in fact I was saying "I should be able to talk to my mother on the phone once a week without you screaming at me for days if you find out."

[MaxedOut]

A lot of marriage counselors have a default position of both parties being responsible for everything going on and that much is rooted in poor listening and communicating. This is one of the reasons couple's counseling can be harmful when one partner is abusive and/or has a PD.

[square]

I would recommend staying far away from any talk about personality disorders with the therapist.

While I am appalled at the therapist's position on many things, I do understand that from his point of view, "she has a personality disorder!" can just as easily come from a personality disordered spouse.

The fact that she admits she might have one actually makes it even more suspicious - many nons are worn down by PD spouses convincing them there's something wrong with them.

I'm not at all saying that's the case here. But just think about it. An NPD husband might very well tell his wife that she's mentally ill, she's causing all the problems, that she needs therapy, that they could finally fix their marital problems if she would just fix herself. And she, hoping very much that there could be some way to improve things, might go into counseling saying that she might have BPD.

PDs generally don't seek help for their PDs - BPD is the exception. However, BPDs do not seek therapy to improve how they treat their families. They seek therapy to get support and validation.

The therapist, for their part, has the goal of reducing self harm, hospitalizations, and just general emotional freakouts. They aren't really working on "hey, you need to treat your family better." Even if they had that on their radar, they can't really do it, because the BPD patient isn't going to come in and say "I completely lost it on my kids today and emotionally manipulated one into a parentified role, and I belittled the other in order to feel better about myself." No, they are just going to come in and say "it's just so hard, my kids are so uncaring and one yelled at me and the other was just so cold. I do so much for them, why don't they even care?"

Your knowledge of personality disorders can help you analyze and process what is going on, help you craft a set of responses that de-escalate things while maintaining your boundaries. It's not something to discuss with the therapist, and it's not even anything to discuss with your wife.

If your wife thinks she might have BPD, her thoughts will be along these lines:

Yes, I might have BPD. And he needs to understand how hard it is. Having a mental illness is so hard, why doesn't he care?? Even he admits I'm going through this horrible thing but he's just so MEAN about it. I'm a highly sensitive person, he needs to stop treating me that way.

So, my advice is just to keep all that close to the vest.

[zad7242]

Square,

I think you make excellent points I will follow. On day one the therapist can't assume anything yet. It was my thought exactly that he is still trying to figure out what he is dealing with. Either of us or both could plausibly be the PD partner. She mentioned her own suspicions of BPD but said that no therapist would diagnosis her with it at this point. She admitted to being the perpetrator of verbal abuse, but I don't think she really means it. When pressed she falls back on it being my fault that she explodes. I'd rather have her honestly accuse me in that case. My wife and I never accused each other of having a PD during this session, she disclosed that she thought she probably has it, I disclosed that my wife has consistently been accusing me of having NPD for last few years. I have never once tried to convince her she has BPD, we talked about it once 2 years ago and she immediately identified with it. She has gone back and forth about whether she meets enough criteria for a formal diagnosis, but I have never tried to "convince" her or say it actually technically matters. It's the behaviors that matter for our marriage, not the label.     

[square]

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. I was concerned since what you wrote suggested there were multiple statements about PD going around. But while your therapist may or may not be attuned to these issues, the fact that you only stated that your wife accused you of being NPD is better than the alternative. Still, I think therapists can be unpredictable in how they react to this stuff, so it's still good to just try to totally avoid this subject.

She admitted to being the perpetrator of verbal abuse, but I don't think she really means it. When pressed she falls back on it being my fault that she explodes.

Yeah, I get that. I finally got my head around the fact that while my husband does admit to "overreacting" and similar, he definitely does believe that toxic behavior is warranted under this or that circumstance. He just later sometimes admits that the particular circumstance didn't rise to that level - but the belief still remains that the toxic behavior is potentially fair game. And his point of view is that he wouldn't "have" to engage in this behavior if I would just do/not do X. These are fixed ideas in PD, for them it's a water-is-wet level of assumption they can't wrap their minds around being any other way.

I have never once tried to convince her she has BPD, we talked about it once 2 years ago and she immediately identified with it. She has gone back and forth about whether she meets enough criteria for a formal diagnosis, but I have never tried to "convince" her or say it actually technically matters. It's the behaviors that matter for our marriage, not the label.

Good, and that does make sense - it would be hard to believe that she would be open to the diagnosis if it was something that you had proposed.   

[MaxedOut]

To echo what square said, having a PD spouse acknowledge some things are perhaps "overreactions" but still maintaining what we/others view as abusive behaviors are justified (for them to do... not anyone else...) because of X, Y, Z was my experience with my ex.

When I started being more e policies and setting boundaries, this mental structure started to reveal itself when it was really hidden before. I think I naively thought she didn't understand this stuff was abusive or that I did not want to be treated that way and that discussing things would then stop the behaviors (after all, if someone said that to me, it would be a huge thing).

There would often be the right words in talks but leaking logic at other times. These aren't quite verbatim but a sampling of that peeking though:
- "Name calling isn't good but if you act like a *%/&..." 
- "Well, yeah, you had better not do ————- [thing she does to me] to me. I was really hurt/angry/etc.."
- Reading a safety plan I had to cajole her into sort of making for mental health crises... that had steps like me and her sibling "should not provoke her" if she is not stable (we walked on eggshells at those points, but the important part is putting the onus on the other for what transpired)

There are a portion of abusive people who are just straight up psychopaths, sadists, etc. but in most cases there is a belief they are entitled to control others, are not fully responsible for their actions because external forces made them upset/jealous/ashamed/scared, but others should not do similar even when facing the same emotions. It's variations on "I'm not proud of it but she made me do it."

I never was really able to get my ex to see/understand that some behaviors are never OK.

To also echo Square, we never did couples counseling (that's a whole other thread) but I do know that at the times she was seeing a therapist (those engagements short or longer almost always ended with some splitting episode) the focus was not how she treated others or how to modulate behaviors for the sake of relationships but more often validation or support seeking. I think she would talk about feeling guilt about what the situation did to me or how much I was having to do, but not about behaviors of hers that were harmful and how to address those.

But mostly venting about how others treated her, unfairness, etc. It was nice to have another person for her to dump the grievances on as it often meant a bit less of a demand for me to be that person.

[zad7242]

Thank you MaxedOut,

The one I hear a lot is: "you are upset I'm calling you a retard when you are acting like a retard"

My wife seems to be using individual therapy for coping skills to stop screaming so that is good. She talks in the moment about what skill she is using and after a triggering event occurs she may say "did you notice how I didn't scream there?" She seems to be doing some worthwhile work in therapy at least since I declared us separated . She used the word "splitting" for the first time this week and admitted to doing it.

Last night she told the kids "remember don't push mom (emotionally) she is trying not to scream." Just to remind them of the role they can play in helping her along.

We have been separated for 2 weeks now, committed to "working on things" for about a week and I've been living back in the house with her for 3 days
and she has been very calm and loving during that time. Yesterday she asked me my favorite author and bought me a book for us to read together and making a couple of my favorite meals. I'll have to see if this is love-bombing or if it lasts but she does seem to be putting in the work.

[MaxedOut]

Ah yes, for me the most common was "If you act like an a$$hole, I'll call you and a$$hole."

I like this part of your update: "My wife seems to be using individual therapy for coping skills to stop screaming so that is good. She talks in the moment about what skill she is using and after a triggering event occurs she may say "did you notice how I didn't scream there?" She seems to be doing some worthwhile work in therapy at least since I declared us separated . She used the word "splitting" for the first time this week and admitted to doing it." 

Though "did you notice I didn't scream" feels like it could be looking for credit (a lot depends on tone and context). My ex did that in some gnarly ways. Better would be something more specific and acknowledging like "That normally would have been something where I ended up yelling. I have been trying X and it seems to help. I could feel my anger rising, but I remembered Y." Which my ex also did at times and felt much better and allowed for dialogue and genuine praise.

I do not like this part: "Last night she told the kids "remember don't push mom (emotionally) she is trying not to scream." Just to remind them of the role they can play in helping her along."

That effectively places blame and responsibility on the kids for unacceptable behavior from a parent and suggests they are responsible for regulating an adult's emotions. It is the "you made me do it" type thinking.

A better way for them to play a role would be modeling and sharing with them what she's learned if something like them screaming sets her off ("I see you are upset and started yelling. We don't want to yell-I know I sometimes do and I'm working on it. Can we try some of the things that help me? let's take some slow breaths..."). Or incorporating them in her managing her own emotions ("you can tell me when you think I'm yelling and I'll do one of these things to calm down" or being sure to acknowledge to them if she does and do repair work.

[Rebel13]

I do not like this part: "Last night she told the kids "remember don't push mom (emotionally) she is trying not to scream." Just to remind them of the role they can play in helping her along."

That effectively places blame and responsibility on the kids for unacceptable behavior from a parent and suggests they are responsible for regulating an adult's emotions. It is the "you made me do it" type thinking.

Yes, as someone raised by dysregulated parents, this jumped out at me too. Perhaps some of MaxedOut's suggestions could be raised in therapy to encourage her to be more constructive and take responsibility for herself when working on the problem with the kids.

[zad7242]

So we had our 2nd session this weekend and our therapist told my wife it doesn't sound like she has a PD. She is just stressed and burnt out of doing so much for our family and is critical of herself. He suggested we hire a nanny etc. I totally support this and suggested doing practical things many times to help her out with 6 kids. When I suggested things like that I was accused of trying to delegate being a parent to a stranger. She is also planning a week's vacation for herself as self-care. She is excited to think about where in the world she wants to travel.
I think our therapist is very correct to focus on helping my wife take better care of herself but we aren't getting marriage counseling. I have spoken about 1 minute total in our first 2 sessions. This is individual therapy for my wife with me observing.
She probable does need to be in a more grounded place for us to talk about our deeper marital issues but I am kind of frustrated. I like that he recognizes my wife as needing the therapy and he isn't blaming me for how she ended up so overwhelmed, but still has no idea the things that have taken place over the last 5 years. Things had were apparent before we even got married.

[Rebel13]

zad, are you in individual counseling for yourself?

[zad7242]

zad, are you in individual counseling for yourself?

Yes I have been for about 2 years, exclusively talking about navigating this marriage.

[MaxedOut]

"I have spoken about 1 minute total in our first 2 sessions. This is individual therapy for my wife with me observing."

What!?!

What therapeutic approach or model is this person using? And what are type of licensure?

BTW I think it may be Dr. Ramani who talks about PD people controlling couple's therapy to manipulate the therapist and get an empathetic attachment towards themselves, often fairly adeptly.

It concerns me that verbal abuse was basically treated lightly, the therapist is not asking the partner who left anything, there doesn't seem to have been clinical PD screening, just a... vibes determination in two sessions—without your input, etc. I would personally be wary of continuing without a one-to-one session with the therapist or some sort of change in how things are going.

I know you are a family of strong faith. Is this a faith based or recommended therapist? There *can be* some priorities when that is the case that really minimize harm/abuse and prioritize the marriage staying intact. Usually with the gender roles reversed in terms of whose behavior gets minimized but something seems off here.

[zad7242]

Therapist is an LPC,

I can understand him keeping an open mind about who is abusing who but to decide in 2 sessions she doesn't have a PD is folly. How does he walk that back in 6 months if he changes his mind?
My wife found this therapist through an online counseling app. There is no faith component to it- which I'm totally fine with. I'd rather have an experienced therapist who at least respects my worldview than someone who shares my religion but is clinically incompetent.

I know if I speak up for a one on one meeting I will be accused of trying to triangulate the therapist because I don't like how it's going so far.

[escapingman]

It sounds to me like you have a terrible therapist for your couples counselling. You are the one that has been abused, you are the one that wanted to split up but still all seems to be about making sure your wife can cope.

When I did couples counselling my ex wife used the entire sessions to complain about me trying to the therapist on her side and for me to change. After a few sessions the therapist asked to do individual sessions with us and the first she asked me was "You don't want to keep this marriage going do you?" and my simple answer was "No" and that was that.

Please put yourself first, or else you risk falling even deeper into the rabbit hole where all is about your wife and how she can cope with stress (and the rest).