Disturbing story

[walking on broken glass]

A disturbing situation emerged regarding a friend and I am upset by it. I used to be much closer with this friend but I diluted contact a lot, because she is quite narcissistic and can be very competitive with me (I had written about her here in the past). But we keep in touch and meet from time to time (she lives in a different country).

She's been in a relationship with a guy for the past 6 years or so, and it was clear from the start that this guy was bad news. From arguments and stories she was sharing, I could tell he was very emotionally immature and controlling, but she buried her head in the sand and sought to repair the relationship every time there was a rupture because of him. She prides herself on being very independent and self aware but in reality she is in denial and caters to the guy's whims. Whenever she shared something about a fight they had, I would gently challenge her and urge her to see his bad behaviour but she always reunited with him.

Well, this time she found out that he was bringing women (possibly trafficked) in the flat, when my friend was away, to have sex with them. He has an only fans account and she also found porn videos that he had shot in the flat. It looks like he might be involved in trafficking himself (not a huge leap to make from the evidence). He also routinely does cocaine. This is of course very disturbing but what gives me pause is my friend's reaction to it. She discovered some of the evidence when they were travelling together and she stayed with him and continued the holiday. After they went back, she looked for more evidence on his phone, didn't say anything when she discovered it and left only because she had another trip planned. When she talked to me about it, she didn't realize the magnitude of the situation and was still trying to make excuses for him. It turned out in our conversation that he had given her plenty of reasons to suspect what was going on, but she routinely dismissed all of them and turned a blind eye. He had even told her that he had a guy that procured women for him when he went for business in the Balcans 'in the past'. And she stayed with him after he admitted that, long before she found the video evidence!

I have been supporting her since she told me but I find her lack of understanding of the seriousness of all this very disturbing. She says she will ask him to leave the flat so that she packs up her things. I hope she will and I hope it will be a clean break. And even though I don't underestimate her psychology and the brainwashing she must have received, I am still puzzled about the choices she has made. She basically knew that he was taking advantage of poor, vulnerable women and was ok with it because ... it was in the past? Such a problematic ethical take.

I have been rather gentle with her so far but today she texted me that she can't believe this is true because they had so many things in common. I replied to her that he is a criminal and a misogynist and I don't know what they had in common but that's a pretty big gap to bridge. I feel that I am losing my patience and will be even more blunt if she continues like this.

[Catothecat]

That is indeed disturbing, brokenglass, and your efforts seem to have fallen on deaf ears.  What I find interesting is that she tells you of all these instances, clearly knows what he's been up to, yet despite her knowledge makes a complete turn around and says she can't believe it.  She can't believe it because she doesn't want to.  She's trying to maintain her image of the relationship, and doing so at all costs including to herself.  Saying they had so much in common when apparently they didn't indicates how desperate she is to find reasons to stay with him.  Why she's doing this is something only she can say.  You can be supportive of positive decisions and actions she makes, but otherwise your role will likely be limited until she decides to figure herself out.

Next time she comes to you with her issues with him, I'd ask why she's telling me all this stuff when it doesn't seem she really wants to do anything about it?  Is she serious or isn't she?  Otherwise it's just the same story told over and over.

And I don't think her ethics are actually in play here.  She probably knows perfectly well who he is--if he was someone else.   For him, she's willing to put any ethical concerns on hold.  It may reflect poorly on her, but she's not seeing that, either.
     

[walking on broken glass]

For him, she's willing to put any ethical concerns on hold.  It may reflect poorly on her, but she's not seeing that, either.

This spot on, Catothecat. She is building a narrative around the uncomfortable issues which has become her reality. He is a 'sex addict' and he needs help; he paid for sex but didn't have an affair which means their relationship was real; it might be just the stuff that she discovered and no more. I challenge her and sometimes she agrees with me or keeps silent. But she mostly tries to find grounds for excuse.

The latest development is that she texted him that she wants the flat to herself to pack her things up and he immediately agreed and left. She now says she will take her time because she has a lot of stuff to pack and she does not want to leave the city. She also brought up that she is thinking of calling him to hash it out with him, and she asked me if I think that he may be willing to tell her the truth, since they are breaking up and he has nothing to lose. I honestly think that if he apologized and begged her to stay, she would. I don't think he will, which is really fortunate for my friend. I feel I have said what I needed to say and I will be now following ths situation from afar.

[walking on broken glass]

So I am back with an update.
After our last talk, my friend went silent for a while. She had said that she wanted to confront the boyfriend and that she was in no hurry to move out, but after that I got radio silence. I texted to ask if there are any updates, she responded that there are and she will call me to tell me, and she never called. This was almost a month and a half ago. I assume that she ended up getting back together with him, and she was embarrassed to tell me, after all the conversations we had and the stuff I said about him. Yesterday she got in touch out of the blue to announce that she got a job, without mentioning anything about the situation. To understand the levels of my frustration, you have to know that she's always had a pattern of narcissistic behaviour, getting in touch when she wanted to announce a success, show off and bask in her glory, without ever asking about me. We work in the same field so she's always been very competitive with me and wanting to show that she is better than me. I was aware of her narcissistic tendencies and this is why I had limited contact with her. But this time, it enraged me more than usual. I had spent all this time talking to her about this issue, worrying about her, thinking how I can help, and I now realize she doesn't want help, she just wants validation for her choices. She blatantly glossed over the boyfriend issue as if the conversation had never happened, because it's inconvenient for her, and jumped back to her usual pattern of 'look how amazing I am'. I decided I am not going to passively accept it this time. I wrote to her congratulations, amazing news, and followed up with 'I assume you have broken off all contact with the trafficker? I didn't hear back from you'. She hasn't responded yet but I am prepared to tell her that this is a red line for me, and I can't talk to her while she is still with this guy, and that I hope she gets help. I was so upset yesterday over this, I couldn't stop shaking when I was drafting the message. It reminded me of being in touch with my family. I don't want this in my life.

[Catothecat]

Thanks for giving an update, brokenglass.  Does her response really surprise you?  Sounds like she waited until she had something "good" to tell you, which didn't involve him because she's likely still with him and as you said, doesn't want to admit it.  Seems she now wants to pretend all those previous conversations didn't happen, so she won't bring any of it up--until next time.  With people like her, seems there's always a next time.  It will be interesting to see how she responds to your straightforward question.  I'll bet that's something she's not used to.

[walking on broken glass]

Thanks, Cato! You are right, I shouldn't be surprised. This is exactly what I thought would happen. I guess I was hoping this time would be different. She hasn't responded to my message and my suspicion is she will ignore it. I will wait for a few days and then send her another message that I have prepared, saying that her silence means she is still with him, and even though she wants to pretend our conversation never happened, I am not going to do the same; that I cannot stand by this, as it is against my values and morality, that her stance reflects her lack of boundaries and her values, and that I hope at some point she leaves him and seeks help.

Over the years there has been enough cause for me to wonder whether I should stay friends with this person and I feel that this is the last straw.

[1footouttadefog]

I hate that you are losing someone who you ha e known a long time.  It's tough to have to prune people out of your life.

Just like an infected limb on a tree however it's needful for the tree to be healthy and grow.

Think of this as you drive about and see magnificent trees in the sun and wind.  That is you also.

[Pinkos]

@WOBG I'm sorry that this friendship has been a source of disappointment and upset for you. Your dynamic with this friend reminds me so much of the dynamic with my narcissistic sister. I did this dance for many years (including the criminal boyfriends) so I totally get the investment in their lives. And it is maddening when they vent to you about all this stuff and then they disappear and get secretive or don't follow through on what they said they would/should do. I am a parentified eldest daughter so I had a savior complex with my sister and it took me years to pull back. 

It sounds like you are at your ropes end with this friend and I don't blame you. My guess is she's going to stay with him.

[walking on broken glass]

Thank you, 1foot and Pinkos.

I keep checking to see if the friend replied - she hasn't - and it stresses me. I haven't sent the message I composed yet because it feels a bit final to me and I am worried about what her reaction will be to it. I realize that my worry about her reaction shows me that this is probably not a very healthy friendship. But I am rarely confrontational with people and this is out of my comfort zone. The other option would be to wait until she makes a move and decide then what to do but isn't this delaying the inevitable? I am guessing next time she will get in touch it will be about another 'success' of hers and, if I don't sing her praises, she will say I am envious. But it's her prerogative to think however she likes; that doesn't change reality or my stance.
Ugh. I will send the message and be done with it.

[walking on broken glass]

I sent the message. My friend replied *immediately* that she was just very busy with things and she didn't have the time to write, that she was travelling and that she wanted to update me over the phone because 'a lot' happened after the guy 'chucked her out of the flat' and it didn't feel she could share via text. And could we talk tomorrow? Or even now, she is available. I didn't reply and after a while she added that she has broken up with the guy.
I wrote back saying that I don't feel like talking about 'all the stuff' that happened; that she is not being honest with me or with herself; that if she had made a clean break she would have found the time to tell me after I specifically asked her twice about it; that even if they broke up (which was an afterthought in her message) that was probably his decision, not hers (why didn't she leave the flat and she said that 'he chucked her out' as if she were unwilling to leave, after everything that happened? Where is her agency?) and given his activities this is highly problematic. I basically said to her that she is bullshiting me and I am not having it. She replied saying that I am wrong, that the guy is not a trafficker and he may have made some mistakes but he is not that. And then changed her story that she was 'busy' to 'this has been a very difficult matter' for her and didn't feel like she could discuss it and wanted to take her time, and I am being unfair and cruel by not allowing her to talk to me about it over the phone.

She basically displayed all the usual narcissistic manipulation tactics. Denying reality, playing the victim, changing the story.

I understand that my reaction will have come as a shock to her given that she is not used to me openly calling her out. But I don't owe her to explain all the things that have gone wrong in our relationship before I exit it, given that she cannot take accountability for anything.

I am sad but I don't see how I could have gone on being a genuine friend to her. 

[Pinkos]

WOBG, I'm sorry. It's clear this situation/friendship has been distressing to you. It's also clear that you have cared about this friend despite her narc tendencies. He certainly seems like bad news and you are understandably alarmed and concerned for her. Probably also just confused about her values/decision making. All that is understandable. It also seems clear that you have made your case to her and she has responded by being evasive. Ultimately it's her life, her choice. It's sad and scary but it's her choice.

If you want to maintain this friendship, it seems best to step back from this topic. You can tell her it's her life and you will respect her decision. I also think it is absolutely fair for you to tell her that you no longer want to engage in this topic.

If you no longer want to maintain this friendship (this is the sense I'm getting from you), I agree with you, you don't have to explain anything in detail to her. Your desire to end the friendship is valid on its own and you are free to move on. Perhaps this was a seasonal friend that you've outgrown and her choice with respect to this boyfriend (among the narc tendencies) has pushed you too far.

[1footouttadefog]

For her to tell you all sort of agonizing details to let you think the worst then to pull it all back when you call her on the .orality of being with someone engaged in such things means she is capable of bs-ing and tormenting you with some pretty awful story telling.

She lied early or later, it might not matter. 

[walking on broken glass]

Thank you Pinkos and 1foot!

Perhaps this was a seasonal friend that you've outgrown and her choice with respect to this boyfriend (among the narc tendencies) has pushed you too far.

This is correct. She has behaved badly towards me many times in the past, and she has displayed self-centred and narcissistic behaviour. But I chose to put all this to the side because she could also be fun and we had good times together. I have known her for more than 15 years now. She's been there for lots of major events in my life; not in the metaphorical sense, she is not someone to turn to when difficulties happen, but she has been physically present, which makes cutting her off more emotionally complicated. There have been a couple of other times in my life when I considered terminating the friendship but it felt too harsh and I just drew back. She is also quite persistent and does not take hints. Even when I took some distance, she pursued the friendship on her own end, would send messages and call, and I responded because it felt too harsh not to, like there wasn't a big enough reason. And we live in different countries, so that helped. But now I feel like this disingenuousness alongside the morality issue (which has also been a problem in the past) has pushed me over the edge. I am not sure how I can continue to talk to her and I find it hard to go past this issue; it has just soured everything and I am not interested in having chit chat with her (or worse being the person to whom she comes for validation, as she tends to). Maybe going NC with my family has made me realize even more how important genuine relationships are for me, where I can show up for who I really am and expect the same from the other person. This is not it.

For her to tell you all sort of agonizing details to let you think the worst then to pull it all back when you call her on the .orality of being with someone engaged in such things means she is capable of bs-ing and tormenting you with some pretty awful story telling.

Spot one, 1foot. The ever changing story and the subtle manipulation is what gets to me. First, she was just too busy and this is why she didn't reply and then she was just too hurt and wanted to take her time, and it's not fair of me to push her. And yet, amidst all her torment, she was able to send me a message about her new job in a style that looked like a LinkedIn post, boasting and showing off. I think this was the last straw for me.

There is a part of me that feels sorry for her and for how this will come as a shock to her. I feel guilty for not giving her the full story and not explaining fully how I feel about our relationship. I know she is not aware of how I view her and our dynamic, nor my grievances. But is there any point for me to tell her all that given that she is incapable of introspection and accepting criticism? And to be fair, this is not just a few issues here and there, this is her character that I will be attacking, which doesn't leave room for discussion.

Maybe I should have left this alone and done a fade out...

[Catothecat]

I agree that there's no point trying to explain your position to her. She's never going to willingly see it.  I wouldn't state any more than you already have, and leave it up to her to ask further questions or clarification.  If she asks, tell her.  Only because she asked. Let her set her own self up for the truth.  To just provide the information can be viewed as an attack.  It would give her the opportunity to play innocent.  She can pretend it came out of nowhere, so let her start the dialogue.  I sincerely doubt she will!

I understand your feelings of guilt over this, because she's been there for you in the past.  She gave the appearance of being a good friend. But was she really? Was her "being there" about you, or about allowing her to feel good about herself?  From what you write, it sounds as if she knows the basic rules of how to conduct a relationship, that there has to be some reciprocity for it to really work, but how genuine is any of that?  You can know the "rules" and play by them but still not really believe in them.  Ultimately, it seems as if she wants everything on her terms, and she'll manipulate information in order to keep it that way.  You are then left dealing with a so-called friend who deceives you, leads you on then changes her story, wants you for her audience but only expects an appropriate response to her performance, giving an honest appraisal isn't allowed, or even heard.

A slow fade would show her that she can't rely on you to "appreciate" her in the ways she wants.  She can't get anything more from you than what you're willing to give.  She can perform all she wants, but you're not going to automatically clap.  I honestly don't think she'd understand anything else since it's clear she's not going to listen to what you say.  If she pursues you, grey rock her.  Tell her sorry, I'm busy right now.  I know such an approach doesn't come naturally to us, we automatically revert to a willingness to see the positive in a relationship, but it's this automatic response the other person has come to expect and what we have to adjust.  I really don't see the negative for you if you do this. 

[Pinkos]

I agree with @Catothecat - telling her why could be viewed as an attack and gives her the opportunity to play victim and push you even more into the G side of the FOG. And she won't understand anyway.

@Catothecat also makes a good point about the performance of friendship and how that tricks us into feeling like there isn't a good enough reason to dump a bad friend and we're also aware throughout the friendship that having an honest and direct conversation is somehow not allowed. You didn't get to this place by yourself. She's played a role too. I don't think you have anything to feel guilty about.

[walking on broken glass]

From what you write, it sounds as if she knows the basic rules of how to conduct a relationship, that there has to be some reciprocity for it to really work, but how genuine is any of that?  You can know the "rules" and play by them but still not really believe in them.  Ultimately, it seems as if she wants everything on her terms, and she'll manipulate information in order to keep it that way. 

This is spot on, @Catothecat.

You didn't get to this place by yourself. She's played a role too.

You are right, @Pinkos. Even if she lacks the capacity to reflect on it, she did contribute to the dynamic.

I think I am feeling guilty because I am used to holding the role of the 'wise advisor' for her, someone who listens with empathy and gives careful advice, and I just point blank refused to do this anymore. And of course she doesn't like it and she is not going to be happy with me, but I have to let her deal with that herself. I think grey rocking is a good tactic if she gets in touch, since I haven't decided to block her. I suspect she will say something like 'you really aren't going to talk to me?' to which I can reply I don't think there is anything to say, our views are irreconcilably different. Then disengage.

Ugh. A part of me feels that if I hadn't said anything, I would have maintained some kind of friendship with her. But I know this would have made me angry and resentful because it would have meant sacrificing my genuine self.

[walking on broken glass]

More thoughts: I related the message exchange to my therapist and I was surprised by her reaction. She said to me that another person might have accepted my friend's excuses for not being in touch; that while my response contained anger, my friend did not go on the attack, as she would expect from a person with narcissistic tendencies but tried to appease me, which shows vulnerability and that she operates from a place of fear when it comes to interpersonal relationships; and that my experiences with family have made me more attuned to people with narcissistic traits but this might also mean that sometimes I may be too sensitive and may overreact until I find a more measured response. She emphasised that she is not saying that I overreacted but that's what I felt she was saying.
She also said that I have low tolerance for irrational traits in people but that when it comes to relational matters people tend to respond in surprising ways because of their defences. Almost as if saying that the friend was not being deliberately disingenuous but avoided the subject because she felt uncomfortable and unpleasant.

To me it felt like the therapist was making me work hard to prove that my response was appropriate, that the evaluation of my friend was accurate and that I was right not to let this go. She even said you tend to be more gentle and diplomatic but this time you were very direct and she wondered why, but to me this reaction again felt as if she were saying my response was disproportionate.
I was left puzzled with her approach and I will take this up with her next time to see what she will say. She has been very helpful with all the issues with my family so I wonder why she chose not to be validating here. I did go in saying I feel conflicted about what happened - like I feel justified in my anger but also bad that I am causing rupture in the relationship and concerned about being too harsh - and I felt that her questions made me even more insecure. In a way it's helped me see that I am prepared to push against a stance of understanding and sympathy towards the friend. But I now feel more guilty about it.

But even if it's true that my friend's behaviour is not deliberately manipulative, isn't it still bad towards me? Isn't the outcome that's important?

[Pinkos]

In my initial comment, I used the word "evasive" to describe your friend. So I guess I sort of understand what your therapist is saying in that regard. Your friend knew that you disapproved and had a strong opinion of this man and she didn't want to fess up to you that she did not want to end the relationship. She wants to stay in the relationship and she wants to have your emotional support. I think she realizes based on your strong feelings on it that not only will she NOT have your support she may end up losing your friendship entirely if she stays in the relationship. She's trying to finagle this situation so she can keep you both. So I guess I understand what your therapist is saying that this friend makes choices out of fear (perhaps fear of abandonment?). She doesn't want to lose you. She doesn't want to lose him.

My interpretation of your position is that this friendship was never compatible and you have wanted to end it for a long time but just didn't know how to do it. You want/value friendships that offer mutual support and interest and you haven't received that from this friend. It seems to me that you've had to be patient/understanding of her limitations and forgiving to maintain this friendship for 15 YEARS (!) and that can take a toll. In the past when you've reached your limit you tried to pull away...she chased after you...you felt guilty and continued to engage. The same thing is happening now, no?

[walking on broken glass]

So I guess I understand what your therapist is saying that this friend makes choices out of fear (perhaps fear of abandonment?). She doesn't want to lose you. She doesn't want to lose him.

I understand that too and I agree with it. What puzzled me and annoyed me is that the analysis of my friend's motives (her fear of abandonment, her vulnerability, her defence) was offered by my therapist alongside an analysis of my personality (a lack of tolerance to irrationality and a hypersensitivity to narcissism) and I felt as if the message were that I wasn't being understanding to my friend's sensitivities. My main quibble that my friend's actions are manipulative and her ethics questionable was sort of side stepped. Her fear is telling her to draw me in when she senses I am fed up, back to a caretaking position. But when she perceives criticism, she can keep her distance and does not care about my feelings. Deliberate or unconscious, this is egotistical and narcissistic behaviour, and not the sign of an equal friendship.

To my mind, the analysis of the friend's psychology would be appropriate material for her own therapy, if she was willing to go (and by the way I gave her the details of a therapist a good friend recommended to me but she didn't want to have therapy). Because I don't lack understanding of her defences; in fact I have had too much understanding in the past, which meant putting my needs aside. So surely, the fact that I am waking up to this realisation and standing up for myself is positive, and not overreaction or lack of tolerance.

Sorry, this wasn't a rant directed at you, Pinkos! Just trying to explain my thought process and why I had this reaction to my therapist.

[BreatheDeep]

Hi WOBG, I'm so sorry you didn't receive the support and validation from your therapist that you deserve. Yikes. I would've been quite shaken by that. I'm not sure how you stay so calm!

Do you think there's any chance that what your therapist was trying to get at was something along the lines of, "does this situation with your friend resemble anything thing else in your life?" 

Obviously, I don't know the answer to this, so I'm not arguing that this is the case. Like you, I'm trying to understand what's going on with this therapist. 

For example, when you struggle to understand why your friend doesn't see the harm in behavior that to you is so obviously wrong - has anyone else in your life frustrated you in that way? Someone that you've never been able to get through to? Someone who simply refuses to see or acknowledge the truth?

Or have you yourself been in a situation where you've been wronged, and others have minimized it, turned a blind eye?

Another example: when you struggle with your decision to drop this friend - is there anyone else in your life with whom you've faced this kind of emotional turmoil regarding your level of contact?

Trying to help you discover possible connections to your history for behavior your therapist says is more or less out of character for you, is the only thing that fits with what I've experienced in therapy myself. Otherwise, I'm at a loss as to why your therapist would be so (seemingly) insensitive. It's baffling to me.

I hope you can get some answers, and some peace with all of this.