Estranged uncle asks for visit after a decade of "unjustified silence"

[Pinkos]

I haven't been here in a while and I feel sheepish about asking for support but here I am if anyone has the bandwidth.

This is a paternal relative who has no interest in me but has been a flying monkey for my parents prior to and after my estrangement with them. He sees his role as elder advisor (read: criticism of my character and life choices with no meaningful support) and as someone who feels entitled to my support and assistance in advancing his various interests. The drama started between us when I was in my 20s living alone in a new city. He was recruiterd by my parents to influence me to go to grad school (I was wasting my potential blah blah blah) and he was coming annually to my city for a work conference and would summon me to have dinner with him to pursue this agenda. We would also see each other at family functions. Very rarely did we communicate via phone or email in between these interactions. After a few years of these yearly dinners he asked me to undertake a huge project for him and I agreed while deep in the FOG. When I realized he expected me to advance the project with little input from him and that I would essentially be giving him free labor I grew resentful and backed out. He followed up and asked me again a couple years later and I said no.

Fast forward and I'm in my 30s and there was a particularly tense family vacation with him, me, and my parents. Without going into all the drama prior to and during this vacation, let me just say I was essentially made to feel like an outsider and emotionally ambushed on this vacation. He was the ring leader. A few months after that he came to my city for his yearly conference and said he wanted to see me, I agreed, again still deep in the FOG. He was rude and standoffish with me and brought along my cousin, his niece. Again, I had a feeling that I was on the outside of the triangle.

Next time he wanted to meet with me I said no. I ignored his texts after that when he tried to intervene in my estrangement with my parents. I've ignored his calls for the last several years and just put him out of my mind.

He texted me last week. The longest text I've ever received from him. He loves me, he's my uncle, he's worried about the distance. He referenced some long ago memory between us from when I was 10 or 11 and said I inspired him with my warmth and confidence and how he cherishes the memory to this day. I replied politely. He said he's retired now and flexible and he wants to see me. He says we can put the parental estrangement to the side. I can come to him or he'll come to me. He's close to 80 at this point. I asked what's changed now and what he hopes to gain from a visit. He replied he just wants to see me due to the "unjustified silence" and he has no agenda.    

I'm skeptical of course. I'm not sure what the agenda is whether he is trying to intervene in the estrangement with my parents or whether he wants to again broach the subject of the big project he wants me to do for him now that he's retired. Technically, I could go to a popular tourist attraction city near where he lives and make it a sort of vacation for myself. I would stay in a hotel and plan other activities for myself and see him for dinner, lets say. I've been doing this kind of traveling over the last couple years. Pick a nice city and just get away. So the trip wouldn't be all about him and it wouldn't inconvenience me to do it. I presume he expects me to stay with him for a couple days and perhaps he thinks he can influence me better that way in whatever agenda he has in mind.

My motivation in agreeing to see him is that in the last couple years I have been open to the idea of LC with my parents. I have attempted it but it hasn't gone well so I went back to NC. He's their flying monkey so I could negotiate that through him if he wants to act as an arbitrator. If he wants to resusitate the big project with me, I could ask for something in return and see if there's a mutually beneficial agreement that could be reached.

I guess I'm looking for feedback from all you lovely people here to see if I've entered the FOG and I'm setting myself up. This forum has helped me tremendously before so I am hoping to have my blind spots pointed out to me. I have felt a lot of resentment and anger towards this uncle over the years. Just at his entitlement, his inability to listen and just be supportive etc. I'm surprised at myself that I'm even entertaining him.

[Adria]

If you feel drawn to meeting with him, keep everything on your terms, where you stay, how long the visit, and if it goes sideways - have an exit plan.
Know that if you meet with him, the meeting could stir up a lot of issues and feelings that you may have put to rest for the most part. Or, on the flip side, it could maybe be healing for both of you.  You have to weigh everything out and decide if it's worth it.

Otherwise, just ignore and keep moving forward. 

These are always such hard decisions. I think you did the right thing by asking a few questions about what he is looking for in this meet up.

If you do decide to see him, I hope it goes well. 

[Pinkos]

Thank you, @Adria. I did note that he didn't really ask "how are you?" or "What's been going on with you? Have you been OK?" The world went through a whole pandemic and he never called/texted me once during that period to ask how I am. He's in the public health field btw. I'm pretty sure I didn't have him blocked. I was pretty isolated during that saga.

He didn't ask to reestablish contact by the simple means of talking on the phone. Seems like the most obvious choice. I think I'm making too many excuses for him. Because we never really talked on the phone I thought maybe he doesn't like talking on the phone. But I'm sure he talks to my father, his brother, on the phone.

[Call Me Cordelia]

That's a good point about talking on the phone. That would be a very simple, low-stakes, easy exit means of re-establishing contact. What if you suggested that before an in-person visit? Just to catch up a bit?

I recall one time my husband was being sucked back into the FOG with his parents a few years back. He was on the point of booking plane tickets to go to visit his silent treatmenting father, and honestly all it took to cool those jets (pardon the pun) was, "What if you tried talking on the phone regularly for a little while first?" That wasn't the desired response and the parents went right back to discard mode.

The lack of interest in you, the mushy memory of you as a child, and even the phrase "unjustified silence" make me think, "Danger ahead!" I fear justification will be sought and blame assigned. And not to the uncle. Also that he's retired now and flexible... bored and lonely, maybe? Of course I don't know. But narcissists do often not seem to realize that time passes for other people and they have full lives going on, and they can simply take people off the shelf and dust them off when it suits them to do so. Take care.

[Pinkos]

Thank you for your thoughtful comment @Cordelia.

With respect to just asking to catch up on the phone as a first step, does anyone just get sick and tired of pointing out obvious sh*t to them?? There was a really good thread on here recently about the compulsion to fix and that if we don't it will all go to hell in a hand basket and we will be blamed. It feels like that when I have to patiently state the obvious and I find it so tiresome. This happened with this uncle A LOT.

"Oh sorry I can't come meet you at 2pm on a Wednesday maybe you can take a wild guess where I am?"

"Oh sorry you're mad at me because I didn't want to scramble a week before a vacation to plan accommodation because you refused to engage on the subject in advance." Etc etc

Yes, the "unjustified" comment got my attention for sure. I was so tempted to address it but I'm glad I didn't.

Also, I'm glad you mentioned the dynamic with your husband and his parents. That's been my parents  response when I attempted LC that's why it didn't work. I got the sense it's their way or the highway. And this request for in person visit very much feels that way. An injustice has been visited upon him/them and I must come hat in hand or else.

I definitely think I've been in an emotional flashback since the text exchange and I'm so glad I sought support here.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

Hi Pinkos. I agree with what has already been posted here.
   
Yikes! The "unjustified silence" statement was a big red warning sign to me. It also feels a little judgmental. Nothing about a decade of no communication is silent. Instead, it is speaking so loudly it is deafening. It would tell someone that a boundary was breached, something was unacceptable, you are living fine without them.
       
Honestly, if I had an uncle who was trying to talk to me, I would probably have been happy that there was someone actually attempting to engage with me in any seemingly meaningful way. I would probably very curious what he had to say. The only thing I ever got was a friend of my mothers who called me once to say that my mother was still my mother regardless of whatever happened. She was not interested in listening to what my experience was, how I was impacted by anything, or how much I had been hurt. She was not talking to me to lend support to ME.       
     
I wish you clarity on what you chose to do. I wish you strength as you move forward.
           

[walking on broken glass]

Hi Pinkos!
You say

So the trip wouldn't be all about him and it wouldn't inconvenience me to do it.

But would you *want* to do it? What are the feelings that come up for you, when you think of meeting him? I find that we often fall into the trap of 'if something is not too bad or a huge inconvenience, I can do it' without considering our actual, genuine wishes and desires. You don't have to do something just because you can do it. If the prospect fills you with anxiety, hyper vigilance and fear, it's not a good sign. If you are going into overthinking mode and are making contingency plans, again not a good sign.

It seems to me that your uncle wants to get back in touch with you when he chooses, in the way that he chooses, and expects you to jump at the prospect. It's absolutely fine to decide you want to go but take a beat first to consider where the urge comes from.

[NarcKiddo]

The huge thing that jumps out to me is your thinking that you might use the flying monkey to broker some sort of contact with your parents again. It sounds to me like your uncle is pretty set in his own role here. He is unlikely to see himself as a flying monkey, of course. He would likely enjoy such a role very much indeed but you have no way of knowing how your communications with your parents will get garbled on the way through. Honestly, if you want to go back to some sort of contact with your parents I think it has to be direct with them on your terms or it has no hope of working. Given your past experience of LC having to go back to NC I think you would need to resign yourself to history repeating itself if you were to attempt this. But you owe it to yourself to do it directly if you are going to do it at all. And actually, why give the uncle all the glory anyway? Why should he broker a deal with your parents as if he is the one who made it happen?

As for your relationship with your uncle - I think you need to do what feels best. If you are interested in the big project, should he want to proceed, then see what he has to say. The points you have picked up on do not make him sound like a very safe or supportive person to be around - but if you are strong enough to keep an eye out for any shenanigans and protect yourself then why not see what he has to say? I just think you are very sensible to be thinking it over and considering whether it is something you actually want to do. I totally agree with what WOBG has said.

[Pinkos]

Thank you Blueberry, WOBG, and Narckiddo. Your comments are very helpful and I'm grateful.

So, yes, there is no way for me to make a trip his way without having a dark cloud hanging over my head. The entire trip (on my dime) would not be my usual whimsical and fun getaway. It would be anxiety-ridden for sure.

The more I've thought about it, the more it seems like this is him working up to ask me to work on his big project again. I'm almost 85% sure. It's all consistent with his past behavior — to reach out to me this way and put this much pressure on me and rush me because he has a self-serving agenda. He's retired now so it makes sense for him to try to get this project completed.

I don't think he could afford the amount of money it would take to incentivize me to spend so much time with him again to work on this project. It would require a lot of effort and he would be the most tiresome person to collaborate with because he's so pushy. My life may not be happy exactly but his intrusion would compromise the peace I have worked hard to cultivate by not wasting my energy and time on self-centered and won't-take-no-for-an-answer types like him.

I was going to just block him but I feel a need to close the loop. I've thought about it and if he wants to suggest catching up on the phone I think I could handle that and you're right of course NarcKiddo the conflict with my parents does not concern him and he's not a neutral arbitrator. He's enabled them so far for sure so he's already been a destructive force on that front.

Here's a draft reply, if anyone has the time let me know what you think. I may change my mind again and just block him but I'm mulling this over for now:

It feels to me like you want to skip a lot of steps after such a prolonged distance. As to the cause of the distance, you are entitled to your opinion, of course. I was simply trying to understand your expectations. I'm not comfortable with the pressure of this suggestion. If in your mind this is the only acceptable way for us to open the lines of communication, I accept the consequence. Take care and all the best, Pinkos.

[Pinkos]

You know what? I'm just going to keep it simple and if he follows up with me I'm going to say "if you just want to catch up there are more convenient ways to do that." And leave it there.

The ball can be in his court after that if he wants to call me. I think on a subconscious level their punitive and apathetic response to the NC just makes me feel so unreasonable and like I'm engaging in some childish petty game. He's the one who reached out to me and made such a big ask and when I asked what he wanted, essentially, his response seemed curt and I felt foolish and petty.

Uggghhh. 

Thank you all again.

[Pinkos]

I have an update on this.

I've spent some time reading through a few posts in here just to help reorient myself again. So many thoughtful and compassionate posts and comments. It has been super helpful as I have tried to regain clarity and strength from this contact with this uncle.

A couple nights ago I logged on Facebook after a long time looking for someone's contact info. I saw a message from 2023 from a young relative saying he was in a bad place and commenting on the family dysfunction. He asked if we could talk. I immediately replied offering to talk thinking maybe this relative was trying to distance himself and find his own way. He saw it and started chatting immediately. It all happened so fast.

Well unfortunately it turned out he was now living outside the country and estranged with his parents but he was business partners with my brother who is a piece of work and who I have no intention of ever having a relationship with.

Throughout the conversation I realized that this young (almost 30) relative was speaking to me as my brother's flying monkey. He indicated that my brother loves me, misses me but won't admit it, but that he doesn't trust me. He also said that I have earned how my brother has treated me and that I was doing some "sideways bs." And that my brother was hurt that I left him alone to deal with our 2 younger sisters' drama.

I said something like my brother has been hurtful as well and that he and my parents expect me to always fix things. 

Then he told me he hates to break it to me but everyone has moved on and no one expected me to come around in the last 10 years. That my brother has now taken over the role of "fixing things" and they're all getting along "lovingly."

He filled me in on some other family news and drama. I didn't say much in response and didn't ask questions. He confirmed my uncle's death a few years ago when I thought it was a Hoover attempt by another relative who told me he had a brain bleed. He said that his adult children were fighting over his phone while he lay comatose in the hospital. He spoke very callously about this uncle's death (his grandfather!). He confirmed that my brother and one sister fell out too (so much for "lovingly"). He confirmed that the one cousin (this is his aunt and he referred to her as a bitch) that reached out to me saying "I think I understand" has been even more ostracized since her father passed, which is why I suspected she was reaching out to me so unexpectedly. I wrote about that here.

He sounded immature and was insensitive. He finally asked me if I wanted to die leaving things the way they are! [Wow. That escalated quickly!] That they all love me and I should reach out. If it's still shit then I could always go back to silence.

By this point in the conversation my patience had ran out. I had just let him talk with very little feedback. I told him he didn't know anything about my relationship with my family and that I felt like he tricked me during the convo. That he pretended to understand and said hurtful things. I told him I only responded to his old message because I thought he was in a bad place and was trying to offer support. But since he's saying he's now in a "lovely" place and my brother has been so good for him I'm glad for him. He said some other things pertaining to just my relationship with him that I think my brother had distorted so I explained my pov. He asked me to talk in a few days and he wants to be an ally and that I was right about him not knowing about my family dynamic and we could just talk about me and him. I told him I need some space and that this convo had brought up a lot of things I don't think about anymore and it's a lot to take.

The update is - wow nothing has changed! While it hurt to hear him say that they've all moved on and, essentially, no one thinks about me anymore it was also clarifying. It's not like I didn't know that. It also helped to get confirmation that they only reach out to me when they need supply! The sister that fell out with my brother sent me a text around that time, which I thankfully ignored.

Which brings me to this recent request from this uncle. I suspected he was only reaching out because he wanted to ask me to work on that big project. This conversation with this relative confirms for me that I am right!

No one is thinking about me and they have moved on! Yep. Makes sense. So why reach out now unless he wants something for himself? That's the only logical conclusion.

I was initially rattled by this FB convo but now I thank this flying monkey. I needed clarity, a reminder, context, confirmation and he gave it. I needed to know that despite the years long distance my instincts are spot on. So flying monkeys can have their uses on rare occasions I guess. It also became clear that my parents and this uncle are tightly controlling what information is shared with me. I talked to my father after the other uncle passed away (it turns out he fell at their house and that's how he ended up dying) and not a single mention about it from my father!

Amazing how easy it is to fall back into the FOG after very little contact from them. It's a little sad how much they can still affect me after all these years. But it's also good to know that my boundaries are not as sieve-like as they used to be. Just wanted to put this here in case it helps others to see the evolution of this thread from FOG to more clarity and reorientation.

If anyone has any comments, thoughts, or commiseration about the flying monkey FB convo I would love to read them. It was an interesting experience for me because at first it seemed like the kinda thing you hope for and how quickly those hopes were dashed!

[walking on broken glass]

Wow Pinkos, what a rollercoaster.
Like you, I am both sad and happy about the conversation you had with the flying monkey. It's sad to realize that nothing has changed and, if anything, the dysfunction has deepened even more. But it's also good to get confirmation and clarity, and a reminder why you chose to stay away from all of them. You must be so happy about the peace you earned and the life you built outside of that circus. Be proud of yourself!

[Pinkos]

I am, WOBG! I am so proud of myself that I walked away from the chaos. It's a relief to be able to look at it from such a distance now.

I forgot the best part of what he said....

He said "[I was] old news like the 0b@ma administration..."

(After a beat he added)

"...the 1st one!"

Haha! If that isn't cold water on my face...thank you flying monkey. I will remember those words anytime one of them reach out to me and try to guilt me as if I owe them anything.

[Adria]

Oh my gosh Pinkos,

What a trip!  The confirmation came in the nick of time. I'm happy for you.  Sounds to me like they think about you more than they care to admit, LOL. Maybe because you didn't jump for uncle, they needed to come in through a different door. Who knows.  I've learned that their is an endless supply to the flying monkeys.  They are everywhere, and new ones pop up when the old ones are found out.  These people can't stand it when we get away. Even though they want you to think they don't care, they monitor our lives any way they can because heaven forbid we end up in a better place than them.

[Pinkos]

Well...there's an update.

The flying monkey apologized. He said he was out of line and inconsiderate. He said he got emotional. Then he added something along the lines of he "knows better than to be slick with smart people." Hoh? So he was testing to see what I would put up with? This feels like a Hoover to me?

He says he wants a second chance. He doesn't want to bring up any other stuff just about me and him. He wants to talk to me so I can help him in the way that I originally intended.

You're right @Adria he was talking out of both sides of his mouth. And they are not as detached as he/they want me to think. But it's not grief/sorrow for them. It's about control like you said. They can't stand that I won't let them dictate the relationship anymore. They want me to have my face pressed up against the glass wishing I was on the inside again. 

He said my brother was his rock now and his life was lovely in this new country. Of course I know my brother never helps anyone. He finds dependent people  and uses them.

I think I reached out reflexively in response to his old message. That was my old self. The ever accommodating emotional caretaker. I probably wouldn't have reached out if I weren't in somewhat of a FOG from the contact with the uncle. I examined my feelings towards him and again he's done me a favor speaking so callously to me. I have no desire to help or support him. I definitely don't want to open myself up to more of his negativity or give my brother side door access to me.

Thoughts welcome as always, and thanks for following my story.

[Call Me Cordelia]

It's to his credit he apologized but golly I think you're right the interaction has shown you that you're better off not. Perhaps just expressing some version of that? Wish you well, good luck, goodbye.

Quite the learning experience. Thank you for sharing it.

[Adria]

Yes, it sounds like the apology was extended because he knew you were on to him. Since he was a good boy and so politely apologized, he might be thinking that maybe in the future, you will entertain conversations with him again, so he can still extract information and be an even more covert flying monkey. The apology could just be to hopefully let your guard down and be more open because he was nice and kind and apologized. Maybe, maybe not.

Or, you could play the game back, and tell him how wonderful your life is . . .yada yada yada, and let that get back to your family.

 
But, I would proceed with caution.

[Pinkos]

Initially I felt that way @Cordelia - that he deserves credit for apologizing and it would be ungracious not to acknowledge it. That we're all impacted by the family dysfunction/negativity and make mistakes. That his feelings are "system feelings." Etc.

But then like @Adria said it feels like such a "good boy" act. The change in tone was so drastic. A Jekyll and Hyde moment. We never talked on the phone before. We only saw each other at family functions. He could've just apologized and let it go but the insistence that we speak and that I "help" him in the way I intended to originally feels particularly sly. His life is so lovely now and my brother has been so great for him, right?

I have a mind to just not respond at this point.

[walking on broken glass]

I have a mind to just not respond at this point.

I think that I would do the same if I were in your shoes, Pinkos.