Parental Alienation

[JustKeepTrying]

So glad to hear this and sending you all hugs

[SonofThunder]

So glad to hear this and sending you all hugs

SoT

[escapingman]

STBX is so predictable it is almost surreal. With the report from the SW favouring her she decided to celebrate victory by bashing me further and start asking for things way premature. So far she has got away with murder and the SW has kept things pretty much as STBX wants as she has not grasped the situation, YET. If you lie about things dear STBX, don't lie about things I can prove is a lie. And if you lie about things I can prove is a lie, don't lie about things the school has said. That STBX, can explode in your face, and boy do I hope it does.

[hhaw]

EM:

I'm wondering why SW continues allowing stbx's visitation with DD after stbx's failure to provide an adequate apology to DD.

DD might feel better IF her request for that apology is honored by stbx, imo.

How is the apology letter, or lack of an acceptable letter, being documented?

Has SW commented to you  on the apology letter and DD's feelings about it?

[escapingman]

hhaw, let's see what happens now as the SW seems to have grasped the seriousness of the situation with DD threatening to kill her self. Next supervised contact session, which also was supposed to be the last according to the SW's report has been post phoned. The reason the supervised sessions happened despite no apology is  because I spoke to DD about it and we agreed that if she will demand an apology to see her she will wait a long time, with it being supervised we both felt reasonable OK with it AND I needed an incident (which happened this week although not as I expected it). Now I might come from a different angle and say that even through DD wants supervised contact, she is not able to control her emotions and that it might be better with a break - however I prefer this to come from the SW.

It is all documented by me so far, and the report from the SW specifically said contact will not move onto to unsupervised without an apology, which hasn't happened. DD wrote the SW a letter telling her how she did not accept the so called apology and I have a copy of the letter if needed. SW was quite taken back by DD's refusal to accept it but now she get it.

This will be quite interesting as STBX thinks she has victory within days and when this starts falling apart I can see how she will start raging.

[escapingman]

I had a really deep chat with DD yesterday about her wishes and she says she max want to see her mum once a month and that to be supervised. I am going to encourage her to really say that to the SW prior to the hearing so she is onboard on what is really happening and not a rushed recommendation just to tick a box to close the case. If DD says she requires supervision until she is 18 then she needs supervised contact until she is 18. Just because STBX says she doesn't need to be supervised she can have her unsupervised, STBX is just about to show her true colours as she will throw a fit when she realise she ain't getting it her way. I am dealing with the safety and have just had DD threatening to kill herself whilst STBX is trying to argue who has DD for Christmas.

[escapingman]

I just can't believe this, but I should have known. DD just told me that her phone is tracked by STBX and that she knows where DD is ALL the time. We setup a family account on google many years ago, I thought this was just a shared calendar, but apparently she as the family administrator see everything the girls do and also share there locations. DD has now asked her to remove this, if she refuses I will bring this up in court.

[Associate of Daniel]

This is one thing that bothers me too, in my ds15's situation.

With the advances in technology, tracking on phones is just too easy.  His UNPD father and UNPD smother know where he is all the time.

Which means they also know where I am a lot of the time when he's with me, since he's not yet old enough to drive.

I used to ask him to turn off location services, or whatever it is, whenever he was with me. But he can't see anything wrong with other people knowing where he is at all times. And the turning off and on thing gets tired.

To me it's an invasion of his and my privacy.  We can't go out for a coffee together without them knowing.

Anyway, could you just get a new phone for DD and not tell her mum? Or can DD turn off the tracker at her end?

Either way her mum will likely blow up. But that's a lesson for DD in itself - her mum will blow up no matter what path is taken.  That's on her mum, not DD.

[Rose1]

I wouldn't ask the court. Your ex can ask to reinstate it if she feels like it. I'd just do it. would a new SIM work?

[Associate of Daniel]

Just thinking as I type here.

Perhaps you can get Dd a new phone on which she can do everything she needs/wants, and keep the old phone as "spare" that she can just check infrequently for messages from her mum.

Bottom line is, dd can choose whether or not to read messages from her mum and whether or not to reply to them.

If she has a seperate phone (her current one)  that she uses just for communication with her mum, it could be kept at home in a drawer rather than having the anxiety of notifications from her mum in her face every time she picks up or hears her (new) phone.

I'd block her mum on the new phone.

I don't know, really.  But I do know the anxiety I feel each time my phone notifies me of an email, even before I know it's from UNPD exH or his UNPD wife.  I'm sure your ds feels the same at this point.

AOD

[escapingman]

Thanks for all your advice, the phone thing is sorted and might actually not have been a deliberate control issue. My hypervigilance make me jump and think worst case scenario at everything, but I need to know that even though she is uPD and very disordered, she is also a human and not disordered all the time in every aspect.

My worry is that when she is showing to be normal she almost fools me, if I almost fall for things, how can other people not be fooled? People that haven't seen her bad side? That is the real problem in all this, she just appears normal, until she doesn't.....

[Gettintired76]

Dude I feel your pain sooo much, the paperwork is quite clear that I have custody right, the sheriff wouldn't let me take my kids after I was for ed to confront her and she said it was a typo.

[escapingman]

Getintired, it is painful for both of us. But hopefully we will both get out of this with our sanity intact and the safety of both us and our children.

I watched a good video by Rebecca Zung about how to beat the narcissist in the courtroom. I was already heading there, but the trick is to completely disengage and not provide either positive or negative supply. STBX is still trying to discredit me, but I am just not even responding to it. I am tired of defending me against all crazy accusations, if she comes with an accusations and have zero evidence then it should dismissed or else she would need to prove it. Hopefully, just hopefully she moves on if I can stop providing any supply. But it's very difficult when she has my beautiful daughter under her control (and abuse). I don't really understand how so called professionals can allow her to be living with STBX when my other daughter has graphically told stories of the abuse whilst my controlled daughter hasn't mentioned one bad word about it despite everyone has listened to recordings of STBX attacking her. I am just struggling with the mindset and how to emotionally connect/disconnect with someone I am not allowed to see. I just can't get my head around that I am not allowed to protect her.

[SonofThunder]

...but the trick is to completely disengage and not provide either positive or negative supply.

.....hopefully she moves on if I can stop providing any supply.

I just can't get my head around that I am not allowed to protect her.

EM, do you believe that if you and DD remain more calm and neutral in mindset and you two get on with living, that life for GC will also be a more calm experience during this process, since the legal system is currently favoring the mother vs the father and that stbx is an excellent actress? (my stbx is as well  )

If yes, then your proactive calm, neutral attitude and forward progress in getting on with your and DD's new living, is actually a proactive way to support GC!  Its a very tactical way of thinking, because you understand PD's and how their minds work. 

Your and DD's silent, calm & neutral forward living, is like having a covert operator inside the 'head'quarters of the opposition, to influence the war's direction from the inside. 

Therefore, to the last sentence i left in the quotes, you can "allow" yourself to possibly protect her, because with proper boundaries and toolbox actions/reactions, you and DD are in full control of yourselves.  Even if DD must have supervised visits, she can be in full control of her actions and reactions during the visit.  If she remains calm and neutral during and after the visits, then stbx will not obtain her manipulative-control feedback she desires, which may cause stbx to eventually start showing some cracks in her acting facade. 

All the while, GC may also experience more calm and neutral because stbx gains no beneficial negative feedback from EM or DD by that method (manipulating GC) either. 

Frankly, manipulation to PD's gets boring very quick if there's no feedback.  Imo, its the 'indifference' discussed in other threads that becomes a toolbox tool very much in our control. 

SoT

[escapingman]

You are spot on as usual SoT.

They (STBX, MIL and GC) is trying to manipulate DD to join their camp. What they have failed to understand is that DD is Out of the FOG and can see every trick for what it is. Then the SW is completely missing the point and is comparing rebuilding my relationship with GC the same as STBX with DD. DD has had enough of being abused and manipulated, she comes and laughs telling me their latest attempts. Recently DD said GC kept talking about STBX when they saw each other, like saying "Mum has been to the grocery store", "Mum has been to the clothes shop", "Mum went to the shopping mall" etc. DD told me it is doing her head in and that she could not give a stuff about what her mum does. I think the girls will fall out again soon as GC clearly has an agenda and DD knows this.

I am curious to how this will go if I put down all weapons and just agree to GC choosing for herself what to do and just leave it at that. I think STBX will start turning on GC if she loses that supply from me. GC won't know or understand when STBX changes her agenda, GC will soon become an inconvenience for STBX and if she isn't providing supply for her things might change fast. If GC ignores me but I stop trying to save her she will lose her status as the golden child.

[SonofThunder]

I am curious to how this will go if I put down all weapons and just agree to GC choosing for herself what to do and just leave it at that.

EM, Is GC legally at an age to choose for herself? 

I am of the opinion that a PD will turn outward to a fabricated smear campaign of lies toward the opponent, if the opponent suddenly becomes 'indifferent' vs staying in the fight and providing the drama-fuel they crave. 

Imo to somehow ruin the best arrows in one's own quiver is self-sabotage in the war. Therefore imo a good reason why GC's relationship with stbx would not be damaged.  GC's relationship to you, seems to be an important measurable component in the SW's directives, therefore imo, GC holds a lot of weight in the situation and in the decisions/opinions of the SW.  If stbx drives GC away/or to you in some manner, it would be self-sabotage, and especially if you and DD are simply calm and indifferent as you move along with some proactive joy-filled living. 

As long as GC knows that her dad's home is always open for her, while she watches dad and her sister simply get on with their lives, then at least she knows the door is open and arms are always ready for a welcome-home. 

Again all opinions based on my own experiences with a stbx that cant stand calm indifference.  There's just no drama in indifference and the PD fuel tank runs empty really quick.  My adult children and other family members may hear all kinds of smear, but in proactive 'indifference' (not discard) I talk with my children about my/their life in general and am very visibly getting on with my life.  All the while, very privately and quietly working diligently in keeping my divorce moving forward. 

I surely have my very frustrated difficult mental moments, but I am expecting them in rollercoaster fashion and try, in mindfulness, to recognize them, accept them as part of the process/my life, journal them and then refocus on the joy-filled projects i am proactively doing to get on with living.  Its surely tough, but im not getting any younger, and the war of divorce will be over at some future point.  Im not waiting to the end of the war to start getting on with my life. 

SoT

[Poison Ivy]

This: "As long as GC knows that her dad's home is always open for her, while she watches dad and her sister simply get on with their lives, then at least she knows the door is open and arms are always ready for a welcome-home."

[escapingman]

Thanks for your advice SoT and Poison.

It is such a difficult thing to decide, I either fight and in no way leave GC behind, or else I leave her behind until she is ready to leave or if she is thrown out. I don't know which is the better and I have to pick one, I can't really do both. STBX will expose herself at some point and that will be key in either strategy, if I am indifferent she lose supply and that could make her behave as SoT suggest, but if I keep pressurising her she will eventually let her entitlement come down crashing her.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi EM,

SoT and Poison Ivy have highlighted the thing that I would also highlight here: GC needs to be shown that her dad's home is always open to her.

I'm coming from the perspective of a now middle-aged daughter whose parents divorced during my teen years. I look back at how my dad behaved during their divorce, and I look back and try to recall if he ever conveyed the message that he cared about me and my welfare, and my well-being. I look for memories in my mind, as to whether he ever made the point that he is here for me, no matter what.

Those memories don't exist because in my case, my father begged off without caring about us at all. He never conveyed to me that he cared about me. In his mind, he was done with having a daughter, as well as having a wife.

I am not saying anything about whether to fight for custody right now or not because I don't know enough about your particular situation to weigh in on that.

But I can bet you that if you convey the message to GC that you care about her, and you always will, that will mean something to her someday. Maybe not right now - but someday she is likely to look back on this time and she's going to be able to recall how you treated her and what you said to her during this time, and the care that you were able to convey (in whatever channel or way that you can right now).

This is why I was of the opinion you should buy her holiday gifts this season.

Daughters need to know that their fathers care about them - even (or especially) in a messy divorce of their parents, even when they are acting out, even when they are teens, even when they do the wrong things, the daughter needs to know that her dad does love her.

I'm not discounting that her other parent is messing her up and causing PD damage. I have a PD mother as well. I believe what you say is going on regarding your STBX.

If you want my advice, that's what it is right now. Find a way of making sure she knows your door is open to her when she wants to walk through it.

Knowing that my avoidant PD father was done with me was far far more damaging to my life in the long run than a lot of other stuff I went through at that time (i.e. once I went from adolescent to adulthood, and knew my father didn't care about me anymore). A child is a teenager for a short period of time but she's your daughter forever.

Trees

[SonofThunder]

..or else I leave her behind until she is ready to leave or if she is thrown out.

..but if I keep pressurising her she will eventually let her entitlement come down crashing her.

EM, to the first quote sentence above: 

I do not believe that not fighting is "leave her behind".  I believe purposefully not fighting, while you and DD calmly and quietly (yet visibly) get on with life, is a different war strategy altogether.

Fighting is what you have been doing, and the fighting imo, has been reactionary, defensive battles, as your stbx utilizes her skilled acting abilities, your past relationship and her/your relationship with GC & DD to control the situation in her favor.  PD's thrive in these environments and enjoy the drama and pain they inflict as they stoke the internal flame of their own victimhood.  That fire imo, beings them comfort in assumed justification. 

If GC very clearly knows that EM and DD's door is open for her, and that arms are waiting to welcome her home, then that imo is the foundation message that will underpin her witnessing you and DD change directions, stop fighting against stbx and calmly and joyfully get on with your lives.   

To the second quote sentence: 

I do not believe a PD will "come crashing" because of anyone else's pressure, but will start to crack when the drama they try to create, falls on deaf ears, and bounces off the indifference of those who are moving on with life. Imo, they try to penetrate the fortified proper boundaries by amplification of their one-sided drama toward the non, and it becomes visible to the people who matter in these cases (such as SW and the court system). 

As I said earlier, i believe your stbx turning toward GC in manipulation is not an advantage for stbx, because GC is currently an asset to her legal case.  If your stbx tries to use GC to manipulate DD or you, your proper calm indifference, quiet mouth and actions clearly show you and DD moving on, will be very visible.  GC may possibly become envious of you and DD moving on.  Your firm, standing invitation for GC to come home to loving open arms, will always be there for her. 

Again, i encourage you that you are not "leave her behind", by stopping the fight strategy, but just the opposite.  In addition, life for you and DD may emotionally improve as you move on, yet both have boundaries on your actions/reactions to stbx and GC.  Calm, quiet, indifference toward any negative actions/reactions from them.  Calm, quiet, caring acceptance of positive reactions from GC. 

I wish you the best in your decision making. 

SoT