drop dead fred

[heartchakra]

I'm not sure where to start.  I have not long discovered this site, as well as, discovered that my father may be NPD.  Well, I think he is.

How did I end up here?  I have been doing my own inner work (discovering how I became limerent, and why, etc)... which led me on a journey of self-discovery.  Along the way, it dawned on me that the attachment style that I formed is related to NPD.  In short... limerent > attachment style > looking at my parents, and upbringing. 

My father is elderly and I am now wondering if I go NC, or, change the way I communicate with him.  I read a thread on here talking about an Uncle passing and how he didn't leave clear instructions with regards to his will.  A lot of that post resonated with me.

Growing up, and even to this day, I dread phoning my father.  I have never been good enough, and even if I was (as in got straight A's) I was told to keep it up.  He has never allowed me to show or feel anything other than gratitude for what he has provided and has always bombarded me with insults.  He has never once said he loved me, appreciated me, or was pleased for me.  He always brings up my past failures.  Which leads me to think that he has NPD.   Along with many other things he has said over the years.  Even though my parents separated many years ago, he still tells her how she gave birth to two useless children (his children).  I have been used as a weapon in their separation (?) I really don't know what I was because it is too hideous to put into words - being told at 6 to go tell your mother ....... and then to come back to him (while he sat in his car outside her new home) to give him her answer.  They BOTH played this game and it became tiresome to the point I would make stuff up to please both parents, and not repeat the nasty words that each was saying to the other via me, the messenger.   And being left at the age of 5-6 to choose who I would live with, while each was screaming at me to 'come here!'...


Sorry for going off topic.  So anyway, I am now thinking, how do I deal with him since he won't leave his home and go into assisted living.  He won't have any carers (nurses, cleaners, etc) go into his home - he thinks they are only coming to steal his stuff.  I have offered support many times.  He wont go and live near his children because he puts it down to us wanting his money, even though he is leaving the house to his son.  When I talk to him on the phone he acts like a child saying that it is HIS HOME. 

And to make matters worse, my mother knows I have just discovered that he has been emotionally abusive all my life (my brother suffers from depression and he too is doing his own inner work).  I say 'just discovered' because I really had no idea what I was dealing with, perhaps through blocking/repressing most of it.

I have yet to figure out what role my mother plays, but when I told her I was considering going NC, she told me about the will.  And I am wondering... why?  I have never given a toss about what I will be left because in all honesty, I just wanted to be left alone.  I hate the thought of people dangling carrots in front others to please their own ego.  What kind of game is my mother playing?  She wants me to be kind and look after him because he is leaving the house to my brother and money to me.

I'm a bit perturbed by all of this, and feel stuck between a rock and hard place because of how I was conditioned to feel guilty in the first place.  As well as, having societies expectations that one must look after their parent.  This sucks. 

[Zebrastriped]

heartchakra, welcome to the boards.   Using you as a messenger was really rotten of your parents.  My parents are older also, and uBPDmom wants to 'die in her house.'  No hospital, no hospice yet, no nursing home.  Its like standing at the edge of a cliff and watching bits of it underneath of you fall away.  You are left wondering when the whole thing falls down, taking you with it.

Some of us here have chosen NC, VLC or regular visits but decreasing reaction to dramas.  Most of us are still figuring all of it out.  The toolbox is a good place to start.  Hugs to you.

[MLR]

Your mother wants you to get the money and use it to take care of HER.

She wants you to stay in the role of obedient child for her benefit.

[heartchakra]

heartchakra, welcome to the boards.   Using you as a messenger was really rotten of your parents.  My parents are older also, and uBPDmom wants to 'die in her house.'  No hospital, no hospice yet, no nursing home.  Its like standing at the edge of a cliff and watching bits of it underneath of you fall away.  You are left wondering when the whole thing falls down, taking you with it.

Some of us here have chosen NC, VLC or regular visits but decreasing reaction to dramas.  Most of us are still figuring all of it out.  The toolbox is a good place to start.  Hugs to you.

Thank  you zebrastiped, I will look into the tool section and start arming myself with strategies

[heartchakra]

Your mother wants you to get the money and use it to take care of HER.

She wants you to stay in the role of obedient child for her benefit.

MLR you could be right!  Thank you for pointing this out.  My parents have a strange relationship.  I believe they still love each other even though my father is abusive to her, yet she still shows care by phoning.  She even told me what he says to her and that she just ignores it.

After disclosing to her my new awareness of what he was like and how it has led me to where I am now, she told me that even though my father doesn't show it, he loves me.  How's that for ignoring my feelings and putting all the attention on him?

I have never had a close relationship with my mother.  The two of them played games with each other and used the children in their sick games.  Both of them never had authentic regard for their children or their wellbeing.  I think my mother feels guilty now because she is coming to my brothers rescue with his mental issues.

So as far as using that money to take care of her, I don't think so, because she knows I wouldn't, we just aren't that close.  But I believe you are right about her wanting me to be the obedient child... her way of getting in a last dig at my father - taking his money.

[practical]

Welcome to Out of the FOG!

I'm sorry you were used as a tool between your parents, instead of seen as a child with her own feelings and needs.

Your F's refusal to accept help is not atypical, there are quite a few of us who struggle with this. The thing is, I assume he is legally still competent, so it is his decision, and he will have to live with the consequences of it. You cannot change him, make him see the light, you clearly have tried with no result other than most likely being exhausted. In the Toolbox      you'll find something called the 3C's Rule: I didn't cause it, I cannot control it, I cannot cure it. It is a good guideline when dealing with PDparents, and requires you accept your own powerlessness.

As for the will, with many PD's there are strings attached to gifts, they are used as tools of manipulation, and the will is on the top of the list, whether it is bing written out of the will as punishment or the promise of the will to make you obedient and take care of them on their terms. As you say your parents still love each other in some way, you may want to look at codependence in the Glossary   as well as enabler, because that might be what your M is doing despite the divorce.

I'm not sure I would share any of what you are learning due to your internal work with your M as she is part of the dysfunction, she may not be a good person to talk to. This might be a question of Boundaries (see Toolbox). It doesn't seem you are very close to her either. What were you hoping for to get as a response from her? Did a part of you hope to get confirmation from her, to be seen with all your pain?

Please also look at the various tabs at the top of this page for further resources and just explore the website as well as the various boards as you settle in.

I'm happy you have found us.

[Adrianna]

Welcome!

I agree. I wouldn't share any of my inner work with anyone in the dysfunction. They will not understand it and likely will turn it around on you that you're the problem. It resolves absolutely nothing and only causes more problems. Your mom doesn't need to know what you are doing inside your own head. Sounds like she has enough issues going on in hers.

Many of us can relate here to not having a close relationship with either parent so you're not alone. I am in that group too as well as having one grandparent growing  up who happens to be on the npd/bpd spectrum. It is a lonely rough road. Are you close with your brother at all/

[WomanInterrupted]

Hi Heartchakra  - and welcome!   

My unNPD dad was the same way - it was HIS house and nobody was taking it from him!  He'd often yell, "I'm just and old man and don't do nothin' to nobody!"  (He was concerned "they" were trying to take his house.  "They" who?  The Nefarious, Undefined They.  The "they" who were responsible for all life's ills.  The "they" that don't actually exist.  )

He even got ADT to lock out the world - and expected me to be his caregiver, except he never asked MY thoughts, 'natch.  I just stayed out of it, he fell, was carted off to a hospital, declared incompetent with advanced dementia (he's 88), placed in an SNF and now has no house or money.  The house is gone, the assets are sheltered and I am NC.

So just keep in mind that no matter what your dad wants, he may not get it.  It may not be up to him in the end and the money could go to his care, instead of being left to you.  (Same with the house - it may have to be sold for his care, so I hope your brother doesn't have his heart set on the place, because it might not work out that way.)

As for your mom - please don't tell her about any of your inner work, and especially about decisions regarding contact.  She's not the kind of person you can confide in, if she's working her own agenda. 

I think MLR is right - she wants you to use the money to care for her, even though you're not close.  She'll expect it, possibly demand it, possibly "hint" at it - but she probably will use a good old does of FOG and say things like, "I am your mooooooooooooother..." in a sad,  butthurt voice that's intended to make you feel bad about all the things you're not doing or buying for her.   

Whether you're close or not won't matter.  It's all about appearances and what she can tell her friends - and it might even be about having a dutiful little slave to order around; especially one that can't get a single thing right if her life depended on it and often has to GUESS what her mistress wants, because she can't come right out and say it.   

As PDs age, they get about a billion times worse and all those behaviors you saw when you were growing up are cranked up like they're on steroids.

So think about the things your mom used to do or say - looking to the past will serve you to suss out the future, like you're reading it off a whiteboard.   

You can figure out her angle by looking how she's treated you - and others - all her life.  Expect more of the same - but worse. 

Even if you don't get the money and brother doesn't get the house, she's probably going to still demand that same high level of care - which means spending YOUR money.   

Please take that into consideration, especially if you're like most of us and just scraping by - or are comfortable, but have the kind of insurance that leaves you thinking, "God...I'm just a few medical disasters away from bankruptcy!"

Don't let your mother's possible agenda or her thoughts mess with your head - if you want to go NC, do it - and don't tell her.  If she's still talking to him and mentions to you that your dad mentioned he hasn't seen you lately, deflect her with, "I've been really busy, that's all," - and divert the topic back to her, ASAP.

You might want to check out the Toolbox and Medium Chill in regard to your mom - basically, you're talking to her like a stranger you met at a bus stop, keeping conversations to light chit-chat, and deflecting topics that are too invasive or troubling.

Any snags or glitches or weird situations or things she says that aren't covered can be addressed here - many of us are good at coming up with Snappy Medium Chill answers for all occasions.   

Again - if you want to go NC, *do it.*  That is for YOU.  If it's the decision that makes the most sense because he's become so unbearable you just can't take another second of it - then that's what you do.

This isn't about your dad and it's not about your mom - it's about what YOU want.

That's what matters most - all our lives we've been told it's not, but that's not true.

What you want MATTERS and is IMPORTANT.

[heartchakra]

I'm not sure I would share any of what you are learning due to your internal work with your M as she is part of the dysfunction, she may not be a good person to talk to. This might be a question of Boundaries (see Toolbox). It doesn't seem you are very close to her either. What were you hoping for to get as a response from her? Did a part of you hope to get confirmation from her, to be seen with all your pain?

Thank you Practical for sharing these tips.  As for what response I wanted to get...   I suppose I did want confirmation given she had endured years of his verbal and physical abuse (prior to leaving him) and verbal abuse after.  And yes, I did want her to acknowledge my pain.  In fact, I didn't expect her to completely disregard my pain and tell me to ignore his behaviour!  That was completely eye-opening.  I felt as if she was willing to hand me over to an abuser.  I was mortified a mother could do this!

I have a dysfunctional family and now I need to go on a de-fleaing programme 

[heartchakra]

I agree. I wouldn't share any of my inner work with anyone in the dysfunction. They will not understand it and likely will turn it around on you that you're the problem. It resolves absolutely nothing and only causes more problems. Your mom doesn't need to know what you are doing inside your own head. Sounds like she has enough issues going on in hers.

Thank you , and yes, I didn't give it any thought about sharing with her. I will no longer share anything with her, as I certainly don't need any negativity out of this.  Her showing me her caring side is quite sickening.  Touching for me at the time because I have never really been shown genuine interest.  She came across as all loving and caring then ended with 'just ignore him like I do'... 

Are you close with your brother at all/

Sadly  no, no one in our family is close except my mother and sister (different father).  I am trying to get in contact with my brother to discuss this, however I do know he is not having a good time (mentally) at the mo.  I have reached out and sent a message, but whether or not he response is another thing.

[heartchakra]

This isn't about your dad and it's not about your mom - it's about what YOU want.

That's what matters most - all our lives we've been told it's not, but that's not true.

What you want MATTERS and is IMPORTANT.

Thank you WomanInterrupted, your posts made me chuckle a few times.  Thank you for your kind words.  I agree, my mother need not know anything. I do not care for his money, all my life $ has been spoken about which used to irritate me (he still goes on about how useless we are with money even though we have a home and are happy... "why do we still have a mortgage?" etc, etc, it wouldn't matter how much we had, it was never enough by his standards).  When I bought a car, it was the wrong car.  Why did we buy our house in the country? The list is endless.  Either treat me with respect or....   

I've said a few times (to myself and SO) he can take his money and shove it up his ...

So we will see.  I'm wanting to make amends and make peace before he goes, but I really don't know if that is possible 

[practical]

And yes, I did want her to acknowledge my pain.  In fact, I didn't expect her to completely disregard my pain and tell me to ignore his behaviour!  That was completely eye-opening.  I felt as if she was willing to hand me over to an abuser.  I was mortified a mother could do this!

I have a dysfunctional family and now I need to go on a de-fleaing programme 

It is one of those lightbulb moments when you realize you were simply thrown to the lions - your F - to distract them from pursuing another victim - your M -. Rationally there is no reason why she would still do this given they are divorced, those dysfunctional patterns unfortunately disappear only with a lot of work and it doesn't seem your M has done much. I'm sorry you went through this, it is truly mortifying. My F would do the same, he would throw anybody to my M so he didn't have to be her victim and could breath for a moment. (my parents are both uPD in my estimation, but it plays out differently in each.)

So we will see.  I'm wanting to make amends and make peace before he goes, but I really don't know if that is possible 

You can give it a try as long as you are not putting all your hope into it and expect some Hallmark ending you'll be fine. You may decide not to try, which is equally fine, it is again about you, what you want for yourself, what you can live with.

When reading here you'll soon realize most of us with elderly PDparents haven't seen a change in them even close to death. The key is they have to want to change. My F is really abusive to my B, and in the past I have really tried to explain to him how damaging it is, the always just dismissed it with some excuse. By now I have given up and accepted he won't change, won't do the decent human thing and try to set things straight before he dies. My M died last year while I was NC with her, and I have never had any regrets, bad feelings or anything negative with regard to where we were in our relationship when she died. I know I had to protect myself from her, and she hadn't changed, so this was the only option where I wasn't going to sacrifice myself. You have to figure out what is right for you, and you'll get lots of support here.

[bopper]

Listen to WomanInterrupted.  She has seen it all.

Know that you have many choices to deal with your parents.

1) Don't deal with them at all. Don't call, don't visit.
2) Choose that you will contact your mom, but not your dad.
3) Contact them both but set boundaries..."OH, Dad, you are complaining about me.  I don't want to upset you so I will hang up now. "   You don't have to put up with being berated!  "Mom, I don't want to discuss Dad." "Dad, I don't want to discuss Mom."
4) Find support for them...contact the office on aging or the like and say that he is a vulnerable adult.
5) Let him live the life he wants to live.  It may not be what you want, but this is what he says he wants. Unless you think he is incompetent.

Did you notice I left off "Run to them and do everythign they want" because that is not an option.

[jaxpax]

Hello everyone... I'm JellyBean and wanted to post an update

Unfortunately, I couldn't remember my password as well as email account used to set up this profile (so sorry Admins!) 

When I started this thread I was FULL of anger and had no one to turn to.  I am so grateful for this site and all those who contributed.

Well, my father is still alive (just) and I've managed to overcome my anger and find myself in a much better position, emotionally.  My mother (they seperated over 40 years ago) moved in to look after my father (he has many issues that need to be dealt with such as skin cancer, etc etc).  Although I had offered to look after him at our place (we live in another town), he has always refused and fair enough, he didn't want to leave the comfort of his home, the very house we were raised in, even though he needs looking after.

I didn't want to force him into a home (care facilities) either as I knew this would kill him.  He wants to die in the comfort of his home, and thankfully he now has someone who is accommodating his wish (having my mother be able to drive him around to his various hospital appointments).


So... where am I at?  I am no longer holding anger about the way we (his children) were raised. I am no longer angered by his responses to what I say.  And I can laugh at him baiting me, but most of all, I have found LOVE for him in his uPD ways.  I see him as the damaged child who never had the opportunity to become enlightened, awake, aware or able to do self-help work.  He will die as he is, and that's kinda sad. 

I laugh when I catch myself saying the same things (that my father would say) to my children... fleas right?!?  Thankfully my children have enough awareness to put in boundaries and voice how they feel.  I have always encouraged them to voice their feelings and I will demonstrate respect for those feelings (since I was never respected).

Anyway, my 'fleas' don't have much of a chance with my husband and children.  If anything, I'm pulled up about them and with their support, we can recognise them for what they are, and even get a laugh out of the situation.

The reason I wanted to update this thread is... with constant work, I was able to reach a place of love.  I knew I wanted to, needed to, because the last thing I wanted was for my father to die with me still holding onto that hate.  I wanted to be able to see the monster for what he was and still love him anyway, unconditionally.  A lot of that came from loving myself, as I was.  And being able to recognise that I didn't want to be the holder of hate.

My father has settled his will.  He has left everything to his grandchildren.  His last 'dig' at his financially struggling children.  Initially I was upset but not now.  At least my children get a freehold house each.  I can't complain about that.   Besides my father has always used money as a 'power' tactic which I stopped caring for years ago.  I stopped listening to his financial advice, because it always ended with 'you are useless with money'... not that we had any money to be useless with when raising children on one income (whereas he had a large income with no mortgage or childcare costs to consider).

I will miss him when he goes, not his abuse of course, but definitely the fact I have been able to reach a place of acceptance and he won't be around for me to share my new ways of relating to him.  Sadly, he will die unaware.  I know it's not up to me to mend the dysfunctional situation, but it is up to me how I want to live, and I wanted to be able to say I learnt how to love unconditionally, and to practice that.  And what better way than to start with my father.

[practical]

I'm happy you have found peace for yourself and a way to go forward in your own life.

[jaxpax]

Thank you @practical

I have managed to spend a week with him and he was the 2 year old while I was his mother, so to speak.  I was pleased I could spend that time giving him what he was incapable of giving, unconditional love.  He loved in his own strange way and thankfully I was able to learn his love language which helped me to come to terms with the emotional abuse.

I won't excuse him or his behaviour, he will have to own that.  What I am thankful for, it having a lighter heart and acceptance.  I even told him when we parted, "I love you" those very words I never heard pass his lips.

Saying "I love you" is the norm in my family (husband and children). Saying it to my father was surreal and something I felt nervous doing, even to the point of debating whether I should say it, but when they fell out of my mouth, it felt natural, normal, because it is our love language, one he is not familiar with.

I'm really proud of myself for trying to understand him.  It was when I realised that he was emotionally stunted and never had a chance to learn and grow, that I felt any kind of empathy.  Although at the time I was learning to be boundaried, which was a life saver.

In short, the weight has lifted.  I am truly free from his abuse.  Not because he has passed, because I have forgiven him.

May you all find peace in your hearts and I wish everyone well with their elderly parents.

[Heartchakra1]

Well here I am again. New user name. Posted the reason why in the welcome forum 

Update & Question for all you amazing posters.

My father (let's call him Fred) is not well.  In hospital close to popping his cogs.  Thankfully, I have made it to the point of being able to say "I love you Dad!" which now falls out of my mouth like melted butter rolls around a hot pan, with ease.
Its without limitations or conditions too.  It's true I've never heard those words pass his lips and don't suppose I ever will considering he's not able to speak clearly.   Incoherent, grunts, slurs, just doesn't make sense when he talks.

Sadly, I'm not able to be by his side due to the city he is in being in lockdown.  Otherwise I'd be visiting him, reading to him, holding his hand and reminding him that I love him (regardless of how he has been).  In short, I've forgiven him.

However,  I haven't forgiven my mother.  And this is where things get mucky.  They divorced many decades ago and she's had husband  2 & 3 die and then went back to my father to look after him since he was living on his own and needed support.  I live miles away so was not able to be there for him on a daily basis.

Now I do appreciate my mother supporting him.
However.  She has taken control to the point she blocked me from talking to him.  Even went as far as to tell me to ffff -ing go off and die somewhere! on social media for all to see.  She then proceeded to tell me I had upset my father and that if he dies its my fault.  Though she was the one screaming and carrying on, all I did was hang up the phone when she started screaming at me.

She's now getting my brother to say the same thing, that I'm to blame.  My father's health has deteriorate (over 2 months since she blocked me) and needs hospital care. It was no surprise my phone number wasn't on the contact list.

When I found out he was in hospital I was delighted because it meant I could finally talk to him!  Finally tell him that I love him and to thank him for showing me love his way (obviously not how I wanted it, but his way nonetheless). He took me to the movies once.  I don't have much to look back on, but deep down I know him yelling at me about money was his way of showing me he cared about my financial freedom.  Things like that.  He was a scrooge but I believe he wanted me to be financially independent.
I know it sounds like I'm making excuses for him, but this time it's different.   I'm different.  My outlook has changed and I've managed to separate myself enough from him that his rants and abuse are his.

I haven't yet managed to forgive my mother, although I have chosen to ignore her. 

To cut to the chase. My father is half way between where my mother lives and where I live.  It took my mother two days before she told my brother to let me know out of respect that he'd gone into respite care.  My cousin has POA and my question to you is, do I tell my cousin what my mother has been like given my mother has told him why he shouldn't move closer to me.  She's no doubt used the reason that it won't be good for his health and I agree, the travel will not be the best for him, however,  part of me feels it's because she doesn't want me spending any time with him.  He would have to travel 3 hrs in the car (or ambulance) to be transferred to a resthome near me.

My cousin would like to see me spend time with him since he's been in my mother's care for the past few years, and only thinks it's fair. BUT, after talking to him last night, he's contemplating my mother's response of not moving him.

I feel stupid asking in the first instance because we're all grown-ups, yet, I'm torn between holding my tongue and showing my cousin the evidence that my mother has an evil side to her.

Your thoughts?  We think he only has a couple of weeks left.

[SunnyMeadow]

Given the short amount of time your father has, I don't think transferring him near you would be good either. I'm sorry that you're not able to visit him due to lockdowns, that's awful. Hopefully someone there has the ability to set you two up with video calls.

In this case I would have no trouble sharing your experience with your cousin. I had an opportunity to share things about my mother with my cousin and this cousin knew all about my mother's antics. Turns out the whole family knew how she was and avoided her when possible. They even talk about how my dad divorced her due to her evil ways. She told everyone that she initiated the divorce.

I have to say I've never heard the phrase "close to popping his cogs" and it made me chuckle. Maybe I shouldn't say I got a kick out of it, but I did. Hope it doesn't offend you.

[Heartchakra1]

Given the short amount of time your father has, I don't think transferring him near you would be good either. I'm sorry that you're not able to visit him due to lockdowns, that's awful. Hopefully someone there has the ability to set you two up with video calls.

In this case I would have no trouble sharing your experience with your cousin. I had an opportunity to share things about my mother with my cousin and this cousin knew all about my mother's antics. Turns out the whole family knew how she was and avoided her when possible. They even talk about how my dad divorced her due to her evil ways. She told everyone that she initiated the divorce.

I have to say I've never heard the phrase "close to popping his cogs" and it made me chuckle. Maybe I shouldn't say I got a kick out of it, but I did. Hope it doesn't offend you.

Thanks SunnyMeadow for your input 
Haha no it doesn't offend me.  Wanted him to pop his cogs for many years.  Obviously in the midst of his tyrannical abuse where I couldn't take it anymore.   Funny how as you get older you start to realize what is abuse and what is not.

As it turns out, his 'about to die' spiel given to me by brother (whom mother used to relay the message) was possibly a tactic used so that he couldn't be moved due to his frailty.

Honestly, why they do this stuff is beyond me.  Perhaps they thought he was about to go for real?  Admittedly my father has been playing on it too and telling everyone he hasn't got long on earth, but,  and here's the part that sounds like an excuse, pretty sure he's had a stroke because his ability to make sense has gone out the window.  Pretty sure my mother has painted me out to be a horrible money hungry daughter too.

All this aside, I'm getting the chance to visit!!! A one-off visit but still, I get to assess his health for myself.   And secondly, I didn't need to say anything to my cousin (POA), he worked it out in the end and has instructed the resthome to only give information to my brother and self.  This means that if my mother demands the resthome release him to her care which she's done before, she will be told to speak to my cousin.  Finally.   FINALLY.   She's been put in her place (sounds mean but honestly,  the way she's so concerned about his money makes me sick).

And, I get to pick the nicest resthome for him near me to move to!  I don't care if it's chewing into my inheritance.  Never expected a cent and still don't.

I'm a happy person and really glad I held my tongue.

I just want to see my dad and hold his hand.