MIL and wife - sure its the pair of them

[p123]

Not my Dad for a change......

My MIL is generally a nice lady. We get on OK - but she has her moments. Different generation etc.
One thing though - she has ZERO boundaries and always manages to get her own way.

For years, since her husband died, she'd come to visit 2/3 nights a week. To help with childcare and to be fair, the kids love her to bits. Later years, we've not needed childcare but she came anyway. 2/3 night no big deal I was in the office daytimes anyway.

So covid lockdown. Shes on her own for a few months. I get she was lonely.

So when things changed a little we invited her back. It turned into 3/4 nights. I don't know how that happened. Now she pretty much refuses to do anything on her own and relies on us/my wife for entertainment.

Its too long even my wife agrees. We've had weeks where she goes and wife is spitting feathers about how tough she is to have for this long. Trouble is by the next week, MIL has got a sob story about how lonely she is and nothing changes.

I've tried to explain to my wife, its too long. Cut it down to what it was before and I'm fine with it. Sometimes, I even drive 30 mins each way in my lunch hour to collect her!
I don't want her to fall out or upset her mother - just try and wrest a bit of control back. Like say "I'll collect you wednesday next week and home friday" instead of waiting for her mother to say "pick me up tuesday then".

We argue all the time, she says shes stuck in the middle. My answer is  I've being flexible here, you need to think of me too not pick me the one to be upset all the time. She says its because I understand how hard it is.

Shes even suggested now I should speak to her mother myself and sort something out. Dunno if thats a wise idea?

[bloomie]

p123 - it is understandable that this pattern would develop given your mil's loneliness and dependency upon your family to alleviate that.

It seems like there are two issues here in reading through this...

- the boundary issue in your home - your mil's multiple visits a week and you playing taxi driver for her are not working for you and the limit that needs to be set with your mil about the frequency of her visits.

It seems like it is possible that there has been confusing messages all around about the visits. This quote from Brené Brown really helps me in situations like this: "Clear is kind. Unclear is unkind."

What part of all of this is not working for you?
What part of all of this is yours to limit, set agreements around, and communicate clearly about?

Letting someone know it is not workable to drive 30 minutes back/forth on any given day is kind. To you and to them.

Stepping back from the frustration and letting your wife feel her feelings and figure out what to do about them when she is upset about the frequency of her mother's visits is kind. To you and to her.

Making an agreement between you and your wife as to how often you open you home to your mil each week and then communicating that clearly and kindly is loving and kind and healthy.

Good luck with this. Let us know how it is going.

[Hilltop]

If your wife agrees  with you then I would just simply change the days you come pick her up.  Don't ask her just put the boundary in place.  Tell her you will pick her up on day A and then will drop her home on day B. Be very clear on the time she will be staying.  If she says she wants to stay longer simply say you have other plans on the other days and you can't.  Her emotions are not yours to fix.  Stay strong, once this happens a couple of times, it will be like normal again.

You could possibly have a loving chat to her over dinner one night and suggest hobbies or activities that she can do.  With Covid its hard on everyone however you don't want her to become more dependent on you.  That isn't healthy for her.

I would not leave the conversation up to your wife.  If she is unable to put boundaries in place then have the chat together and when your wife starts bailing you can pick the conversation up and reinforce the boundary.  There is so much advice that things should come from the child only however if the child cannot put boundaries in place then you should be able to stand up for yourself and form boundaries, as long as its done in a calm and loving manner.  Otherwise you may feel resentment about the situation.  You may not even want a formal chat about it, maybe just tell her the days you are picking her up and when she says she prefers another day just tell her no you can't do that day you can only do the day you want.  Don't back down.

You are already being fair by allowing your MIL to come stay with you, they also need to be fair in return. Its ok to need your own space, your privacy etc.  I think you just need to be clear with your MIL.  If your MIL then tries to go to your wife to change things then perhaps you will need to sit down together with your MIL.  I say together because if your wife gives in due to guilt you can steer the conversation without the emotion.

You are not wrong, what you are asking for is reasonable.

[p123]

Alas its all come to a bit of a head....
Wife is the softest person in the world until you push her too far and her mother has now done that.

MIL is the worlds worst when shes ill. Doesn't listen to advice, doesnt take medication etc, massively exagerrates/makes up things. And wants total sympathy. Stops eating too to cause even more drama.

Anyway, she said she was ill and wife caught her out with one of her lies. Spoke to her brothers and sister and they'd heard a different version. Also, it came out that during all these months, where she kept on she was so lonely, she'd had MANY offers from my wifes siblings and had turned them all down. So we seemed to be the favoured one.

So a week or two ago wife said "oh well if you're ill you better stay home this week". Same week after. This week now shes been telling everyone who will listen that she hasn't eaten for a week. In fact, she took a turn for the worst the day after my wife insisted she stay home this week. All completely made up by the looks.

Wife (and her siblings) are absolutely livid with her. Not only for making ZERO effort to look after herself by not eating, but not listening, and trying to help herself. She really is unbelievable. My wife is also so mad that, for months, we've had her 3-4 days a week when shes had other options and lied about it. To be honest, its caused a lot of grief with mine and my wifes relationship - thanks for that MIL.

I did feel sorry for her a week or so ago. Wife can tend to go from ZERO to 1000. But when I found out that she had manipulated and lied to us about being lonely then not so much.

Even wife admits its been lovely not having MIL here. Wife works part-time but has fibromyalgia so struggles. Having her mother here on her days off is not great because her mother expects to be taken shopping etc and generally entertained.

Also, I'm so glad wife has met this "I'm ill" thing with "stay at home then". Otherwise that would have opened the floodgates to whenever she was ill or decided to make something up, that she could come to us for a few days to be looked after.

[Leonor]

Hi p123,

Isn't it curious how perfectly reasonable and even compassionate responses become, in the world of the personality-disordered, turn upside-down to uncaring and cruel?

The world is in the grip of a horrible pandemic. Your mil says she is feeling unwell. The reasonable, kind response is, "I'm sorry to hear that. It's best for you to stay home and take care of yourself. Hope you feel better soon."

Mil: "I can't eat. I feel weak."

Wife: "Then you should call your doctor.so he or she can take a look at you."

Mil: "I think it is worse than that."

Wife: "Then call an ambulance so you can be seen sooner. I'll call you later to see how you are feeling."

That is NOT a terrible, cruel response. In a normal world, Mil would respond, "You're right, dear. I'll call Dr. Wellness and see what he recommends. I'll let you know, and thank you for offering to check in later with me. I'm sorry I will miss our visit. I hope you will take a raincheck!"

The anger and frustration and negativity is just the pd-ness of it all. It's not that your wife has list it or is being mean. She's probably just frustrated that a normal, kind response is being twisted by her mom into the usual Drama. 

[p123]

Hi p123,

Isn't it curious how perfectly reasonable and even compassionate responses become, in the world of the personality-disordered, turn upside-down to uncaring and cruel?

The world is in the grip of a horrible pandemic. Your mil says she is feeling unwell. The reasonable, kind response is, "I'm sorry to hear that. It's best for you to stay home and take care of yourself. Hope you feel better soon."

Mil: "I can't eat. I feel weak."

Wife: "Then you should call your doctor.so he or she can take a look at you."

Mil: "I think it is worse than that."

Wife: "Then call an ambulance so you can be seen sooner. I'll call you later to see how you are feeling."

That is NOT a terrible, cruel response. In a normal world, Mil would respond, "You're right, dear. I'll call Dr. Wellness and see what he recommends. I'll let you know, and thank you for offering to check in later with me. I'm sorry I will miss our visit. I hope you will take a raincheck!"

The anger and frustration and negativity is just the pd-ness of it all. It's not that your wife has list it or is being mean. She's probably just frustrated that a normal, kind response is being twisted by her mom into the usual Drama. 

Yes definitely......

I've got a big thing that parents should help themselves where they can. I've always said I'd do ANYTHING for me Dad as I'm sure you're wife would for her mum. What gets me is the things they can't be bothered to do, won't listen to advice, and won't help themselves and expect to sit back and let their kids do it for them.

My wife has it worse - shes a qualified nurse. She gets the expectation from her mother that she can fix everything and knows everything. Wife does help her, but then she doesn;t listen anyway.

In the past, both my Dad and my MIL have not listened to doctors and us about things like medication. This ranges from Dad deciding he doesnt want to take the medication (and then moaning his knees still hurt) to MIL being told to get a certain thing from the pharmacist then days later, having not bothered, still moaning.

MIL takes it one step further and refuses to eat. Like a hunger strike. What can you're kids do if you refuse to eat? That is not clever at all and a sure fire way to get into a nursing home. Fortunately, Dad doesnt do this.

Both do the waify ill "phone voice". That is the worse. If your ill with something that does not affect your mouth or throat, you do not need to speak with a croaky voice.

Alas, with both of them, I'd say 75% of there is nothing wrong at all, 20% is massively exagerrated, and the other 5% is something they need to see a doctor about and not expect their son or daughter to fix.

[p123]

Things got worse the last few weeks with MIL. She did go to the GP. But she still refused to listen to anyone and, more importantly, has refused to eat.
It turns out shes been telling one sibling one thing, and another something else so no-one really knew what was wrong or how ill she was.

Wife and her brothers and sister have read the riot act about not eating but she hasnt been. Would not listen.

She went for a scan today and has diverticulitis. Shes also lost so much weight shes been admitted to hospital.
Not the best time to be admitted to hospital of course with covid. And of course, no visitors allowed etc It not great.

Im not an expert but its been a long running argument about her alcohol consumption. Shes 80 and must put away 25-30 bottles of lager a week. A staggering amount that is.
Shes never been one to eat a lot so that much alcohol too can't be good for you. She rarely used her cooker - she used to say she didnt want to get it dirty - very strange.

Wife is just so annoyed with her at the moment ending up in hospital. Shes just so annoyed her mother let it go so far the past few weeks. Shes got a point. BUT I do feel sorry for MIL at the moment.

Its going to be a difficult one - how do you deal with a elderly parent who just won't look after themselves? Wife phoned her EVERY day and told he she had to eat SOMETHING but she just doesnt listen.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Wife phoned her EVERY day and told he she had to eat SOMETHING but she just doesnt listen.

I only have a moment, but that right there is massive supply and reward for your MIL not eating. She's making self-destructive choices to get her drama and attention fix. If she doesn't eat, that's her stupid choice to make. Not your wife's circus, not her monkeys.

[scattered_78]

You can still feel sorry for her, that's how you feel and that's fine.  Don't let that cloud your judgement though.  Your wife is toughening up her reactions to her mother's manipulation, so reinforce that to help with the healthier boundaries.  Be on your wife's side as she goes through this 'waking up' to the manipulation she has been subjected to.

[p123]

Wife phoned her EVERY day and told he she had to eat SOMETHING but she just doesnt listen.

I only have a moment, but that right there is massive supply and reward for your MIL not eating. She's making self-destructive choices to get her drama and attention fix. If she doesn't eat, that's her stupid choice to make. Not your wife's circus, not her monkeys.

oh yes. Shes in hospital at the moment - and eating well apparently!

Just goes to show.....

Luckily wife has twigged on to this massively...

[p123]

You can still feel sorry for her, that's how you feel and that's fine.  Don't let that cloud your judgement though.  Your wife is toughening up her reactions to her mother's manipulation, so reinforce that to help with the healthier boundaries.  Be on your wife's side as she goes through this 'waking up' to the manipulation she has been subjected to.

Im glad but wife does tend to go "all or nothing". I hope it doesnt go back to "nothing"

[M0009803]

Things got worse the last few weeks with MIL. She did go to the GP. But she still refused to listen to anyone and, more importantly, has refused to eat.
It turns out shes been telling one sibling one thing, and another something else so no-one really knew what was wrong or how ill she was.

Wife and her brothers and sister have read the riot act about not eating but she hasnt been. Would not listen.

She went for a scan today and has diverticulitis. Shes also lost so much weight shes been admitted to hospital.
Not the best time to be admitted to hospital of course with covid. And of course, no visitors allowed etc It not great.

Im not an expert but its been a long running argument about her alcohol consumption. Shes 80 and must put away 25-30 bottles of lager a week. A staggering amount that is.
Shes never been one to eat a lot so that much alcohol too can't be good for you. She rarely used her cooker - she used to say she didnt want to get it dirty - very strange.

Wife is just so annoyed with her at the moment ending up in hospital. Shes just so annoyed her mother let it go so far the past few weeks. Shes got a point. BUT I do feel sorry for MIL at the moment.

Its going to be a difficult one - how do you deal with a elderly parent who just won't look after themselves? Wife phoned her EVERY day and told he she had to eat SOMETHING but she just doesnt listen.

25-30 bottles of lager a week?

It's not uncommon for borderline alcoholics to lose weight like this (women specially), as they tend to lose their appetite.

Her blood chemistry must be pretty horrid as well if she has been drinking that much consistently.

[DaisyGirl77]

Things got worse the last few weeks with MIL. She did go to the GP. But she still refused to listen to anyone and, more importantly, has refused to eat.
It turns out shes been telling one sibling one thing, and another something else so no-one really knew what was wrong or how ill she was.

Wife and her brothers and sister have read the riot act about not eating but she hasnt been. Would not listen.

She went for a scan today and has diverticulitis. Shes also lost so much weight shes been admitted to hospital.
Not the best time to be admitted to hospital of course with covid. And of course, no visitors allowed etc It not great.

Im not an expert but its been a long running argument about her alcohol consumption. Shes 80 and must put away 25-30 bottles of lager a week. A staggering amount that is.
Shes never been one to eat a lot so that much alcohol too can't be good for you. She rarely used her cooker - she used to say she didnt want to get it dirty - very strange.

Wife is just so annoyed with her at the moment ending up in hospital. Shes just so annoyed her mother let it go so far the past few weeks. Shes got a point. BUT I do feel sorry for MIL at the moment.

Its going to be a difficult one - how do you deal with a elderly parent who just won't look after themselves? Wife phoned her EVERY day and told he she had to eat SOMETHING but she just doesnt listen.

After I left uNPD eF's mother's home for the last time, she had a medical issue for which she landed in the hospital for a few days.  She required a visiting nurse once she was discharged home & said nurse kept calling my father to report that his mother's fridge was empty, she won't eat, blah blah blah.  EF threatened to place her in a nursing home.  His mother threw a fit.  Told him he was a good for nothing son.  Completely useless.  He's never there to help her...  All sorts of nonsense.  This went on for a few weeks (she'd go out & buy the absolute minimum to make the nurse happy, then the nurse would report to eF again about the fridge being empty, so on & so forth).  Finally, eF had had it.  He told her that he was wrong about me, that SHE was the problem & he regretted taking her side over mine.  (Story in signature, but basically she DARVO'd her ass off to everyone to make me the abuser & herself the victim, & even my own father wouldn't believe me or minimized what his mother had done...  I have PTSD because of this.)  He told her that he was going to apologize to me once he hung up on her (he did; he called me in tears, & I broke down when he said he was so incredibly sorry for what he put me through).  uNPD eF's mother did this hyperventilating type gasp with every word her son told her.  EF called the nurse the next day & followed through on his threat to put her in a nursing home.  She's been there for...  I'm not sure how long because I purposefully tune out when he mentions his mother, but maybe a year or two now.  Could be longer.  She loves it.  Revels in the attention.  She also hates it because they don't fall for any of her bullshit when she decides to pull her waify queen act on them.

My point is this:  Put her in an ALF if you have to.  If she refuses to eat & take care of herself, that's the next step.  The woman is essentially trying to kill herself.  Make her someone else's problem; they have the tools necessary to handle her, & their documentation will contribute to getting your MIL the help she needs.  Too bad, so sad, you're not spending an ounce more energy on begging & wailing, etc. to get her to eat.  That's not your job.  Walk away & drop the rope.

[BettyGray]

p123-

How exhausting this all sounds. It has been interesting to read how the situation has progressed. Sometimes it takes multiple stressful events happening at once to shake us (with PD parents and/or in-laws) out of our last bit of FOG. It gets to the point of no turning back eventually, not unlike an alcoholic hitting rock bottom.

The amount of alcohol you say she is putting in her system sounds like her body has become physically dependent on it. My DH, before he got sober, was putting back lots of beer bottles, wine, and finally, Vodka, per week, before he had to be admitted to the hospital for detox. He had been losing weight and not eating that much because it made him sick. He drank for calories and to get through the day without hitting serious withdrawal. Instead he wound up with pancreatitis and was told “Keep drinking and you will die.” Who knows if that number of lagers is even the real amount?

I am kind of surprised that this didn’t come up with your MIL’s doctor.

Not sure of your MIL’s age, but my parents and in-laws’ generation (Silent Gen) have no regard for taking care of their bodies. None. No exercise, all overweight, crap food, too much alcohol, sweets - smokers, even. They seem to be of the mindset of  “trash now, fix later. “
This is Olympic-level stubbornness (and stupidity, laziness, lack of self-awareness and lack of concern for their children, who will bear the stress of dealing with their parents’ health failures - that might have been prevented if they did the bare minimum.

Heck, they treated their CARS better than their bodies. But who cares, the doctors will just fix me later! Who cares about the drain in the health system, their finances, the burden on their families?

I am glad to hear your wife is coming around. Make sure you praise her (even if it seems excessive) for each boundary she puts up, no matter how small. Because over time, the boundaries will accumulate and will protect your and your wife’s sanity. Your bond will also grow more impenetrable because it sounds like MIL took this one just a little too far.

And I thought MY DH was too accommodating of his MIL! 2-3 nights a week? I would have gone insane already. Kudos to you for putting up with her that long! The problem is her welcomeness got normalized. She got comfortable and thinks she is entitled to invade your personal space. Luckily, Covid gave legitimate reasons for distancing.

Not surprisingly, your MIL’s not eating is a big plea for attention, but it sounds like she abused her body into a real health issue. Nobody’s fault but hers. I can see why you feel a little sorry for her, but I would not get too comfortable thinking she is a victim of anyone’s treatment of her except herself. Just because their bodies get frail doesn’t mean those PD brains of theirs ever give up their cunning, chaos-causing plight.

Again, your wife coming around is HUGE. Support her like crazy and make sure it’s not coming from an “I told you so” or “finally, you get it” place. I would think this must be very hard for her after a life of  compliance. She may surprise you, though, and relapse into her mother’s web of guilt. Gently pull her back by reminding her that it’s more important to take care of herself and her family.

[p123]

Well it all escalated a bit. Shes still in hospital due to infections....
They're now talking about large intestine removal which would mean a bag. They've also not ruled out cancer. MIL is not going to be happy about this.

Based on her past record of caring for herself its not going to happen.

Wife, for weeks, has been infuriated with her mother for letting it get this bad. Today shes upset that its got quite serious.
BUT, we're all still pretty sure a lot of this is due to her neglecting herself. 30 years smoking heavily (she stopped 20 years ago), then large amounts of alcohol since her husband died (19 years ago!) and pretty much not bothering to eat.

I do feel really sad for her. What happens now if she recovers - who knows?

I'd be OK for her to move in with us temporarily but I dont think it would work long term. Wife was adamant that over her dead body would mother move in but I guess this could change. We'll see....

Trouble is wife works, part-time admitedly, we've got 7 year old, and a teen with aspergers. Oh and wife is ill with fibromyalgia. It just woulnt work looking after her mother....

[Seven]

Good lord NO!  Don't even think about it.  If wife says no, then no it is.   if wife starts to teeter-totter on her decision, then you need to gently remind her that her initial reaction was "over her dead body" and there's a reason she said that.

[p123]

Good lord NO!  Don't even think about it.  If wife says no, then no it is.   if wife starts to teeter-totter on her decision, then you need to gently remind her that her initial reaction was "over her dead body" and there's a reason she said that.

Well we had a chat and wife is the same. I have said I would be ok for a week or two but, of course, once shes in it could be difficult.

The way it works here in the uk is they'll either release to family or put into place a 6 week care package. So its difficult to say, one week with us then home for the care package - they'll want this to start straight away. So with us and she might lose this.

Of course, its xmas now. We're hoping she can at least come to our for even a few days over xmas, then if needs be go back to hospital or go home then for the care package to start....

In terms of care homes, anyone else here from uk? If person is ILL then its paid for isnt it by the government (as opposed to it being a lifestyle choice),.

[Waz]

She will loose the care package unless she goes straight home and stays there. As for funding, the rules are different in the 4 nations of the UK. You can talk to Age Concern about the Welsh rules. They are very helpful. If you offer any thing at this point all assessment and support will vanish. All the best, been there, got the t-shirt.

[p123]

She will loose the care package unless she goes straight home and stays there. As for funding, the rules are different in the 4 nations of the UK. You can talk to Age Concern about the Welsh rules. They are very helpful. If you offer any thing at this point all assessment and support will vanish. All the best, been there, got the t-shirt.

Yeh wife knows a bit - she used to be a district nurse.....

We thought that may be the case...

[nanotech]

That's a LOT of lager. That's 4-5 bottles a day!  I would agree that to have mum stay with you after, is going to be a mistake. She's entitled to the six week package, so that will be in place. She will need it the most during the first week out so you will actually be doing her a favour.
I know your wife is a nurse, but she has her own job, her own health issues and she already has family responsibilities.
If your wife continues not to get any time to herself ( if mil is there all the time and very emotionally and physically demanding on her days off) then she will burnout and become ill herself. You too.
It's the 51% rule- you put yourself first so that you CAN help other people. You can help by checking up with her on the phone, making sure foods been delivered ( lol) etc.

So yes, home or care home for MIL. Care home would also have a rehab effect. It would lead to a moderation of her drinking. She would  also be a lot less lonely.
The waifing wouldn't cut any ice, but they WOULD look after her.

The NOT EATING stuff and bleating about it.  This is when a disordered person weaponises a disorder. She may genuinely have lost her appetite, but the doctors will have told her that it's the lager filling her with empty calories. And  she doesn't want to stop drinking- so she dresses it up as a 'disorder' .

I suffered from an eating disorder at 15.
( I had ignoring parents plus an abusive boyfriend) When it's a genuine problem, you  generally try to hide it. People don't notice it for a long time, even when you live with them.
My sister has taken to weaponising food, or rather, her apparent non- intake of it. This is another reason I stopped going to family meals. Either she was 'just having a dessert' or
'I just can't eat and I don't know why' - followed by welling up with tears and walking away. Various people tried to tempt her all day, but no. It was massive supply for her. 
I also  found it triggering in terms of my own past issues around food.
After one chaotic family meal out, where she'd waifed to anyone who would listen to her about not being able to eat, including the waiter, I'd asked her many times or more to order more food, giving her the menu and saying 'choose, ( I was paying). She'd  refused rather smugly while drooling over the others'  full plates.
It's uncomfortabletucking into fish and chips while the person beside you has eaten a tiny dessert and is eyingyour plate. I tried to 'fix' that, which was what she wanted. Later that evening she messaged me from home, clearly with pleasure, saying,
' It's  funny but I'm really hungry NOW! lol!'
Oh the games they play.
At some get togethers the loud food refusal occurred in front of my grandchildren- luckily the bouncy castle was a distraction. 
I don't see her any more and neither do the grandkids.
How damaging such behaviour must be to children viewing it, especially young girls.

I realise your mil does have some genuine problems, but try to separate the real from the imagined/ exaggerated. There's always some truth- but then they turn it into a performance. The real problem is the drinking.