How did you go NC? Did you tell your PD family member or partner?

[poetandpunk]

Hi everyone!

Thanks as ever for your super helpful feedback and posts.

I have a quick question. How did you go NC? Did you explain to your PD family member of partner what you were doing?

My husband and I explained to my NPD parents that many of their behaviors were abusive and we would not be around them or cultivate a relationship if those behaviors continued.

Predictably, this email elicited a storm of harassing phone calls, emails, texts: all obviously confirming everything that we wrote in the email.

After some conversations and research and prayer, we decided to go NC. I did not explain to my parents what I was doing. I simply did it.

My siblings got wind of it and individually tried to 'reach out' to me, convincing me that I was hurting my parents, that I shouldn't do what I was doing, how could I be so cold?

Interestingly, none of them sought to understand my feelings, none of them affirmed that my parents were batshit crazy, none of them sought to understand where I was coming from. And absolutely no way did anyone treat my accusation of abuse seriously - honoring my wish to not continue to be abused. It's all the telltale signs of abuse: the abuser is always right, the abuser's feelings are the only ones that matter, giving in to the abuser is the only way to continue the relationship, etc.

As a result I've slowly gone NC with each of my siblings, and they think I am basically the devil now.

Sometimes I imagine in my head that my sisters wonder why I am doing what I am doing, or I imagine that they are 'hurt' that I have never explained why I am going NC with them.

Do any of you struggle with this? Can anyone relate?

It is my belief that explaining WHY you are going NC or that you are going NC is unnecessary - just a matter of preference. With PD people, it will likely trigger horrible behaviors and they are unlikely to understand your explanation anyway.

Thoughts?

[GettingOOTF]

With my ex I just stopped responding to him once the divorce was final.

I went NC worth my siblings first. I blocked them on my phone and social media. With my father I slowly lowered contact until I stopped calling. It took him about a month to figure out and call me. I didn't answer.

This all came after a lifetime of trying to get them to treat me well. I was very clear on how hurtful their behavior towards me was.

My personal view is that if people behave in such a way that makes others go NC there is no point explaining the NC. They aren't capable of hearing it. If they were they would have listened the first time and changed their behavior.

My experience with my family was that whenever I told them I was upset about something they increased that exact behavior. There is no reasoning with people who think they know you better than you know yourself.

When I finally went NC it felt like such a weight had been lifted and I was finally  free to be who I am. I found so much confidence in all areas of my life.

Of course it was hard and I still feel sadness and guilt but the positives far outweigh the negatives for me.

[M0009803]

Yes, the same thing happened to me.

At first, I still talked to my brother (I went NC with my sisters and PD mother because they were very enmeshed).

But what eventually happened is that my PD mother used my brother as a FM (he turned out to be an enabler to keep the peace).  I told him multiple times I was not interested in hearing about what my mother said (to no avail).  I therefore set stricter boundaries with him (can only communicate via e-mail), and he took offense at that.  He then went silent, so we just progressed to NC that way.

One thing I did notice though, is that while the channel is open to a member of your FOO, and they don't respect your boundaries/privacy, this invariably damages you (because you still feel you are inside the dysfunction of the family unit which stops you from detaching/moving on/healing).

I felt much, much better when I was fully NC with all of them (and this says a lot).

[poetandpunk]

Thanks GettingOOTF!

I completely agree with everything you wrote. Especially when you said: if you get to the point where you have to go NC, chances are explaining that you are going NC or why you are going NC are going to fall on deaf ears. Or disturbed ears.

I have been NC for 7 years with my whole family, with the exception of my younger brother who on occasion I have minimal contact with. Once he warned me that my parents were about to harass my husband and I, so  I haven't blocked him entirely from all forms of media.

However this week he sent me a screenshot of a recent conversation between my sisters while simultaneously telling me my parents are going old and weak and I should try to be open to reconnecting because it's so sad to see how upsetting it is to them.

This was the final blow for me.

First because my brother knows that my parents are NPD but he's still sucked in to the enmeshed, horrific dynamic wherein it doesn't matter how abusive, manipulative, bullying and horrible my parents are, they get a 'pass' card because they 'feel bad' about my going NC. I'm still wrong for not wanting a relationship with them. My accusations of abuse mean nothing to him or my other siblings. Even if they know my parents are nuts, my taking a stand is still 'disrespectful.'

Second because my other siblings are so clearly flying monkeys. The way they talked about their children and themselves in that screengrab of a conversation was so revealing. I don't want my daughter or husband anywhere near this. It's like a toxic whirlwind.

Today I'm letting go 100% of my relationship with my brother too. I see it clearly now - there is no middle ground. Unlike 'difficult' people who are able to change and grow, a relationship with abusers and PD types is not possible. You are either a victim/enabler or you have no relationship at all. There is no middle ground. It's no different to domestic violence or alcoholics - you are either enabling/being a victim or you are OUT of the relationship. No middle ground.

[poetandpunk]

Wow M0009803!

I could have written your post myself. It is SO similar to my own situation. You can read my last post to see what I mean.

It makes me feel strangely better to hear that these PD types have textbook patterns. It really really affirms my choice to go NC.

Thank you so much for sharing!

[DistanceNotDefense]

As a result I've slowly gone NC with each of my siblings, and they think I am basically the devil now.

Sometimes I imagine in my head that my sisters wonder why I am doing what I am doing, or I imagine that they are 'hurt' that I have never explained why I am going NC with them.

Do any of you struggle with this? Can anyone relate?

It is my belief that explaining WHY you are going NC or that you are going NC is unnecessary - just a matter of preference. With PD people, it will likely trigger horrible behaviors and they are unlikely to understand your explanation anyway.

Thoughts?

Poetandpunk, I absolutely relate. Like you, with NC I kinda just went You could say I'm ghosting them. I gave them no explanation.

It wasn't without it's rough preamble. After calling out the awful smear campaign my uPD sib was starting, I demanded of my enabler/covert uNM to acknowledge the smear campaign as truth to me so we could move forward, and to please not lie and gaslight me. I said I didn't think I could be in contact if she refused to see what was happening, and that if not (well, either way) I would "need some space". (Nothing specific about no contact).

Giving her that information, she still refused, and gaslit me. Just like you, no acknowledgement or attempt whatsoever to see my side or see some truth, understand how I feel, just a flat out "that is a lie, that is crazy, there is no way that is happening." Standing with PD, just like with your brother. Refusing to see my hurt. So I stopped replying to her messages. Blocked her on social media. No explanation. There was nothing more I could do. They were in their reality, I was in mine.

I feel just the way you do, I think about how this must make them feel. I feel sad. I find that when I feel empathy towards them too much though, this is what pulls me into a doom spiral of guilt. Then I realize the empathy is what they want me to feel, to feel guilty to be pressured back into their reality again because I love them so much. But where's their empathy? There is none.

It's hard to learn how to love people differently who can't be in your life, but toe the line of knowing that loving them too much (or more than your own self) hurts you. Having to put limits on your empathy towards family is something no one should have to do....but it's not my fault. I was raised to care about my other family more than myself for their own selfish purposes and survival, and the simple fact is that needs to change and this is the only way they've left me with.

Despite all the doubts, I think to myself that what I did would be what anyone *should* do when faced with people coldly and strategically hurting you like this. I'd cut out a friend immediately if they did this. It's just so much harder when it's family.

I also think that with some people (especially PD's who turn words into reality twisters and weaponry), you can't use words anymore. You have to use actions. And NC communicates something they can't argue back with or twist against you. They have to deal with your silence, figure out what it's communicating, and in the meantime have all their dysfunction mirrored back onto themselves because they no longer have you to absorb it for them.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

Yes, I can relate. I think these are common feelings when you are driven to NC.  You stated "It is my belief that explaining WHY you are going NC or that you are going NC is unnecessary - just a matter of preference. With PD people, it will likely trigger horrible behaviors and they are unlikely to understand your explanation anyway."  I completely agree with you.   

With such dynamics, family members just seem unable to understand. If you try to seek understanding, you will likely just keep telling them over and over again. All it will do is draw you into circular conversations that keep you engaged with dysfunction.   
   
I went NC without saying one word to anyone about why. That was two years ago. Up to that point, I did in fact tell my family members many times over several years how what they said or did at any one time was damaging and it was never understood at those times and the behavior just continued. The worse part to me is that once you expose your inner most thoughts and hurts, they hurl it back at you with blame. It just adds more injury.  When they call and plead for you to "come back", they never address their actions, it is always a plea for you to feel guilty and obligated enough to just go back to way things were. There is no resolve, no understanding, nothing better offered to go back to. 
   

[poetandpunk]

Thank you BlueBerryPancakes and DistanceNotDefense!

You both seem to completely understand and that is helpful.

There were YEARS of me trying to assert boundaries in my family, only to be ignored. So that when we finally went NC, there were no more conversations to be had. So I completely agree with you in saying sometimes actions are all you have left to communicate.

I was just revisiting old emails my husband and I sent seven years ago at the beginning of NC. The thought patterns and behaviors are so sick and twisted.

My husband sent a very clear email: we would love a healthy relationship and here's what we think a healthy relationship looks like. You behaviors (literally listed out several) are not healthy and they are not relational and we won't accept them.

It's amazing to see my parents' response to that. They literally COULD NOT respond to the legitimate claims of bullying, manipulation, harassment. Instead my dad and mom completely twisted the conversation around to, 'We want an in-person conversation, We want to hear from our daughter alone, This doesn't feel relational to us.' Neither one of my parents addressed their own behavior - my dad just said at one point, 'I know I said some strong things but I felt provoked.' WHICH IS NOT AN APOLOGY.

Anyway, this came after years and years of me pointing out behaviors to my parents, only to be ignored or to be told I was being dramatic or that all families have issues.

When I told my mother I didn't feel safe around my older sister, my mother said I was being overly sensitive and that I should try to be close to my sister because she's dying for a relationship.

When I told my mother that screaming and having fits on major holidays because all of her children aren't there or she couldn't get her way was ruining the holiday for everyone, she told me to shut up.

When my parents told me over and over again that I was being disrespectful ANY TIME I did something that they didn't prefer - note I didn't say any time I did something WRONG, just choices I made that they didn't prefer, even in my 20s and 30s - and then I said I needed space from them and they guilted me.

I could go on and on and on and on, story after story of ways my parents and sister behaved like NARCS. So that by the time I was ready to go NC, I KNEW that if I explained what I Was doing, I would just get more cyclical responses designed to harass, guilt, and shame me for trying to assert boundaries and stand up to them as an adult.

It's amazing because until this day, I don't think my parents have EVER considered how my choice may be a legitimate, thought out decision based on valid reasons. It could never occur to them. They just think I am either cruel, hurtful, disrespectful or 'being dramatic.' 

[Jolie40]

How did you go NC? Did you explain to your PD family member of partner what you were doing?

Being SG, none of my other siblings had same growing up experience.
This past year with PD parent as well as siblings was total chaos which led to decision to go NC.

Went NC few mos ago. My sleep has returned & my stress level has decreased!
Did send out email to all siblings that said I wouldn't be calling PD parent anymore. Not one of my many siblings acknowledged that particular email.


Don't want my decision to affect my family. So suggested husband & child can call PD parent if they want to but they said they don't want to call.

[DistanceNotDefense]

It's amazing to see my parents' response to that. They literally COULD NOT respond to the legitimate claims of bullying, manipulation, harassment. Instead my dad and mom completely twisted the conversation around to, 'We want an in-person conversation, We want to hear from our daughter alone, This doesn't feel relational to us.' Neither one of my parents addressed their own behavior - my dad just said at one point, 'I know I said some strong things but I felt provoked.' WHICH IS NOT AN APOLOGY.

Poetandpunk, you've really touched on something here that I've struggled with so much in my own situation, and which I have personally found to be one of the hardest things to deal with setting boundaries with these people.

There's almost a "you first!" attitude from PD's (and coverts/enablers/tendency-havers) that I find so infuriating, and which has messed with my mind the most. I guess it's just out and out deflection or projection when put on paper, but your FOO (mine as well) are so covert at it that they make it seem like YOU'RE the awful one, they're just "defending themselves," and they do it so well that you just don't even know what hit you before you can call it anything. And then you feel wrong for having even brought it up!

It's taken me what feels like forever to see this subtle tactic for what it really is and reckon with how manipulative, unfair, and even downright abusive it is (I'm still grappling with it even as I write this, and still feel like the guilty/wrong one in my memory. So maddening!)

You call out their behavior and they demand you call out your own first and discuss that instead. It's like you *have* to be the one who comes clean about their flaws first...and then maybe, just maybe, they'll come clean about theirs afterward (but they don't.)

And they don't apologize!!!!!

In my own situation, (some parallels to yours), I confronted my enabling/covert NM about behavior from my uPD sibling that was...well, you could only call it heinous, foul, and sadistic. (You can read my past posts for context). But it wasn't nearly heinous enough for her to address it at all. Not without gaslighting and rug-sweeping, and without turning it all on me to confront me over something far less serious: deactivating my social media accounts. (FOO found out in less than an hour doing so, thought I had unfriended all of them, and had all gossiped to each other about it - apparently that is far more shocking, awful, and hurtful to my M than her SIL/my DH being smeared as a wife beater.)

Even writing this out I can't believe this is actually real.

Anyways, I'm really sorry about your brother. I had a similar family member who seemed good, but then who made it clear that other family members' comfort was more important than my pain. I had to cut them off, too...I had to cut them all off, even if I don't think they're all PDs necessarily.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Oh, very much so, DND! It's maddening. In my case with my FOO I called out ONE, count 'em ONE incident that hurt me. After years and years of crap, I pushed back on ONE THING. Which my mother denied happened at all. And then it was WWIII. My uPDMIL definitely did the "You first" thing. Apologized for "Not getting to know me," and then proceeded to list out the ways in which I had hurt HER. Mostly truly petty. I cooked chicken one time years ago and she doesn't like chicken.  But she gets to impute malicious motives to me cooking chicken, while I am out of line for having an issue with her undermining my parenting.

You simply can't reason with crazy.

What I can't understand is how they manage to snooker us so neatly! How they manage to throw us off balance! It's one reason why I will communicate in writing whenever possible with difficult people. I can take my time and think it through. One thing that's easier with Covid, I guess.

[DistanceNotDefense]

I cooked chicken one time years ago and she doesn't like chicken. But she gets to impute malicious motives to me cooking chicken, while I am out of line for having an issue with her undermining my parenting.

Cooking chicken? Oh my goodness. Get over it! If that's what she came back with, talk about flailing for any excuse to deflect on you. And what a poor one.

You simply can't reason with crazy.

The most unsettling part is how non-crazy and charming my FOO seems. Very likeable. But when backed into a corner? The crazy comes out....and as likeable as they are, one of the things I've come to notice is how none of them have managed to keep any close healthy long-term relationships outside of FOO (romantic or otherwise).

What I can't understand is how they manage to snooker us so neatly! How they manage to throw us off balance! It's one reason why I will communicate in writing whenever possible with difficult people. I can take my time and think it through. One thing that's easier with Covid, I guess.

Same here. My only unblocked communication avenue I've told them I've left open to them is email (of course they stubbornly haven't used it). Definitely no texts, calls, or video chats. Talking to them in person though, their language and emotionality is so triggering, yet self-victimizing and self-martyring, it can seriously throw you off. It will have you leaving the conversation thinking you're somehow evil and mean, and they leave you acting and considering themselves saints.

[doglady]

‘You simply can't reason with crazy.’
And that statement, right there, says it all for me.

I concur with everything in this thread and can relate to every last bit of it. I agree there’s little point trying to explain the decision to go NC. I truly believe that no matter how clearly and simply you explain what issues led to the decision to go NC, PDFOO will have no interest in  attempting to hear or understand, let alone change their behaviours (in my own case, my FOO just criticised my grammar in the email I sent them, rather than addressing the salient issues  )

Basically, most of our FOOs will accept nothing other than a return to the status quo, ie. for us to know our place and get right back in it, like a whipped dog at their feet. And they will continue to cry, deny, lie and justify this position to the bitter end.

So it’s totally pointless telling them or engaging further, in my opinion.
They’ve been told for years. They just didn’t care. And they still bleat to anyone who’ll listen that they ‘just don’t know whyyyyyyyyy!’

My FOO existentially exhausted me to the point where I really have no more fucks to give.

[Call Me Cordelia]

The grammar police, eh? Yeah, the perfect way to prove your point for you.

My father put in writing that I said I needed space and why (with distortions, but the basic point was there), and then exactly how they busted that boundary relentlessly, and then immediately trotted out the sanctimonious victim routine. All in one letter, with no sense of awareness that he completely contradicted himself. To my knowledge there's never been a "Whyyyyy" from him. He doesn't care why. He doesn't care about facts. None of them do.

[Hepatica]

My FOO existentially exhausted me to the point where I really have no more fucks to give.

and correcting you on your GRAMMAR!    I nearly spit my coffee through my nose. It's so terrible it's funny. (But not funny.) Perplexing.

I have chosen absolute silence of late, bc they're all a bunch of wolves and when you corner one they call in their allies. They're also experts of the poison pen, so letter writing never works. I just write to myself now. It feels like I work every day on believing in myself.

Silence feels cleansing. They can't seem to fight it and since I've already been smeared and I don't care anymore. I keep repeating the words, "So what," in regards to what they think, as advised by the wise Jerry Wise. I have decided to quietly recover in peace and leave them to their wolf pack shenanigans.

This has been like a very slow moving train wreck the past five years and now I just sit here in the rubble and try to figure out how to go on. All I know is having them add more wreckage as I am trying to clean it up isn't working esp. because they blame for the train wreck or in the case of my uNPD sister says there isn't a train wreck there at all, as we both stand there right in the middle of it.

I feel bad about my niece and nephew though. Lots of loss. That is the brutal reality and I wish I could fix it, but I don't know that we ever will.

[poetandpunk]

Hey everyone! Thanks for your replies! Seriously, it's so helpful.

I have made the decision to go totally NC with my brother. It's been a rough week. I blocked him on the only form of social media we are still connected on. Somehow he was still able to send me a message today and it was UN FRIGGING BELIEVABLE.

He told me I wasn't strong as I claimed to be because I had asked about one of my sister's opinions of my choices. The only reason I had asked is because we were close for my whole life and I KNOW she knows what my parents are like, so I was curious if she could understand at all (as we haven't spoken in years).

My brother saw this one question as an open door to give a commentary on my choices with my family. He said if I really didn't care I shouldnt' care what anyone thought - so I should be a robot. And i should be 'hardened enough by the world to be strong' but soft enough to 'empathise' with anyone. That a strong person would either not give a shit at all about our family or stick in it and try to have a relationship. He also proceeded to tell me how hurt he was that I didn't want a relationship with his kids.

This is after my brother's wife decided to leave him because she thinks he is possibly NPD himself.

I admit that asking after my sister was a bit 'iffy' but it was mostly because I never explained why I went NC but I thought perhaps that there was a slim chance she understood, and we have had MANY MANY conversations about our family in the past.

I think my brother's response to me was so weird and unsolicited and so so so typical of my family - dispensing 'wisdom' while completely in denial of reality, trying to guilt or manipulative people into new definitions of words like 'strong' so that they can get what they want. It's so weird.

I also feel disgusted how my siblings bring their children into it. I am a mother myself and I would never talk about my daughter that way. I would never treat her as a bargaining chip or say 'I am hurt' if someone doesn't show interest in her for very very valid reasons.

Anyway! Sorry for the vent - had to let it out.

[poetandpunk]

For the record, I KNOW that NC means no communication with your FOO or the NPDs. I said earlier I still (until this week) have exchanged messages with my brother once a year, because he once warned me my parents were about to lash out. So I've kept that line open.

I'm realising this week that even that tiny crack of openness was problematic.

First because it naturally made me curious about my other siblings.

Also, because my brother is still part of the family, he IS enabling, he IS enmeshed, and he is participating in abuse as a result.

There really is no middle ground in these cases of PD parents or spouses or family members. Especially with NPD.

I realise it was foolish to ask about my sister but I did because I hadn't spoken to her in seven years and I really had no idea what her understanding was. Having a child of my own, I have wanted my daughter to meet her cousins, etc. But I have always suspected I should remain NC and that there were zero signs in place to change any of my boundaries from the past 7 years.

This little exchange with my brother confirmed everything. He honestly thinks a 'strong' person would try to reason with my family or not give a shit at all. I think he's right about one thing - not giving a shit, including about his opinion. It's hard to completely not care at all but now that I know what my entire family is truly like, how they truly operate, and how incapable my sisters are of respecting my choices or even possessing an ability to at least think there might be some reason I'd taken such drastic action. They are so mired in the dysfunction that basic behaviors, boundaries, right and wrong: it's all distorted into so that every action is measured by whether people are 'open to the family, and therefore good' or 'closed to the family and bad.'

I choose closed off.

[Hepatica]

poetandpunk,

I understand. For me this has been a process to complete NC. I still have two family members that the line is open to but my last interaction with them went badly. I am leaving the line open but I will not reach out to them. It does seem to me that we leave little openings of hope for some semblance of health and then that is dashed. It's an entire family system of dysfunction with PD's mostly.

Now you know what your brother is that is more information and you decide your next step. Keep moving toward focussing on yourself, and you will undoubtedly begin to heal. This last interaction with your brother sounds like it's opened the wound and that is exactly what has happened to me every time I let one of them in.

I'm sorry this happened to you.

[poetandpunk]

Thanks Hepatica! I really appreciate your affirming my situation. It is SUPER helpful. 

I had a thought this evening as I was cleaning up after dinner.

I was rehashing what my brother had written to me, shaking my head, feeling all the fury rise up inside of me.

Then I thought to myself: in enmeshed, toxic families like my FOO, they function like a cult.

Cults generally have one cardinal rule: you are IN or you are OUT. The whole energy of the cult is focussed on keeping people in. Lots of tactics are used. from trying to woo to trying to intimidate or guilt or 'appeal to someone's kindness' or whatever.

My family is exactly like this. The only rule is YOU BETTER BE IN. You better be available, you better be around. It's a spoken and unspoken law. My parents and siblings feed off of this vortex. The only 'good' is being available and being in. The only 'right' in being available and being 'in.' That's it.

At all costs.

So my brother's recent messages to me were just another tactic of trying to present this idea.

I could be screaming at my family (which I have at times): You are bullying me! I don't feel safe! You are violating my boundaries! You are being abusive, manipulative, horrible, etc.

But honestly what my family would say either explicitly or indirectly in response would be something like this: 'oh yeah, that might be true. that might not be true. we're sorry. but you provoked me. and you've got to put up with it! because that's what loving families do. no family is perfect, so we aren't either.'

It's like their definition of love is 'putting up with whatever.'

Which is literally the definition of abuse. When people expect you to put up with whatever and they ignore you when you suggest otherwise.

It's just amazing how unprincipled, unhealthy, and deranged it is.

Like a cult, if you wise up and realise what you got yourself into, there are only two stark options and they come in to clear view. You can either stay and lean into the weirdness or you can get the hell out.

That's how I feel about my toxic, enmeshed FOO. I chose out.

But it's amazing the lengths they'll go, thinking that they are 'loving me,' to try to get me in.

What real love looks like is so different. Real love would be more concerned with my cries of abuse, feeling bullied, etc, than wanting to make sure that I stayed in the 'family.' A family that really loved me would be much more concerned with WHY I might have had to resort to this. There would be a lot of soul searching - not energy spent trying to 'get me back in' - but energy spent reflecting, changing, etc.

My brother flat out told me my father hasn't changed one bit, my mom is an enabler, etc. But in the same breath wants me to be in a relationship with them. It's just MADNESS. It's not love. It's madness. And then he said to me how I was weak for not wanting to 'work it out' with my family.

Do any of you get pressure from family members to 'work it out'? It actually makes me laugh when I think about it. All my NPD parents and family members want is to try to convince me to do what they want. That's what they mean by 'work it out.'

For me, there is no conflict to work out. I've made my choice. I made it seven years ago. There isn't anything to discuss, rehash, etc.

There's also the saying of 'two sides of every story.' My brother brought that up too. But there aren't two sides in an abuse situation. Well, there are: it's the abuser and the victim. That's it. It's actually quite simple. In certain situations, 'listening to the other side' is putting yourself in harm's way, is drinking in poison, inhaling toxic fumes. That's how I feel about it. I mean, what do my parents want to 'make peace' about? What do they have to say? I'll tell you: they want me in their lives, they are really upset that I haven't been, and that's it. They don't want to listen to me because they never listened to me when I asserted boundaries over years and years. They didn't listen to me at the beginning of my marriage when I laid down clear boundaries. In fact, they attacked those boundaries and keep trying to attack them, year after year. So whatever idea of 'making peace' they want to discuss, their definition of peace is not in any way appealing to me, and what they've done over the last seven years is the opposite of peace. So there is no WAY I'd be having a normal, adult conversation with the goal of 'peace' and 'relationship' with them.

I've rambled yet again! I guess I am just processing a lot right now and in a pandemic it feels isolated as it is. So I sought out this forum. Glad you guys understand! 

[DistanceNotDefense]

He told me I wasn't strong as I claimed to be because I had asked about one of my sister's opinions of my choices. The only reason I had asked is because we were close for my whole life and I KNOW she knows what my parents are like, so I was curious if she could understand at all (as we haven't spoken in years).

My brother saw this one question as an open door to give a commentary on my choices with my family. He said if I really didn't care I shouldnt' care what anyone thought - so I should be a robot. And i should be 'hardened enough by the world to be strong' but soft enough to 'empathise' with anyone. That a strong person would either not give a shit at all about our family or stick in it and try to have a relationship. He also proceeded to tell me how hurt he was that I didn't want a relationship with his kids.

There is nothing weird or wrong about asking someone's opinion from someone else. The fact that your brother would focus on that as a "flaw" is....I don't know, weak?

I sometimes wonder if the weirder and more inane the arguments get (picking apart grammar, focusing on random things that don't make sense, saying "that's not exactly what I said, you misquoted me, I actually said" etc.) is a PD/PD tendency "mask slipping". Grasping for just about anything to keep it on, and just looking silly at this point?

I think my brother's response to me was so weird and unsolicited and so so so typical of my family - dispensing 'wisdom' while completely in denial of reality, trying to guilt or manipulative people into new definitions of words like 'strong' so that they can get what they want. It's so weird.

Yes, it sounds like he's trying to tell you you're not strong and give you his definition of "strong" (which is to do precisely what he's doing, if he can get you to follow he'll feel better about himself that much is clear). I think this is a sure sign that your choice to stand up against FOO with NC brings up some suppressed guilt in him and he's really struggling with that.

I realise it was foolish to ask about my sister but I did because I hadn't spoken to her in seven years and I really had no idea what her understanding was. Having a child of my own, I have wanted my daughter to meet her cousins, etc. But I have always suspected I should remain NC and that there were zero signs in place to change any of my boundaries from the past 7 years.

You really don't need to feel foolish! It's natural to want to know. I think your brother should be ashamed of shaming you for asking something so innocuous.

This little exchange with my brother confirmed everything. He honestly thinks a 'strong' person would try to reason with my family or not give a shit at all. I think he's right about one thing - not giving a shit, including about his opinion.

It does kind of sound like he's saying in a round about way, "why can't you just be the perfect idea if a human being that balances logic and emotion flawlessly? And all for my sake?" No one does that. No one can do that! Except maybe Vulcans from Star Trek.

I understand. For me this has been a process to complete NC. I still have two family members that the line is open to but my last interaction with them went badly. I am leaving the line open but I will not reach out to them. It does seem to me that we leave little openings of hope for some semblance of health and then that is dashed. It's an entire family system of dysfunction with PD's mostly.

Hepatica, I too have the line "open" to the enablers/tendency-havers (PD member is completely cut off). No intention of reaching out to them, or even responding if I get vapid hoovering messages.

Part of it is hope. Part of it is also to get more proof they are indeed PD enablers/tendency havers when they do reach out, or maybe even covert PDs (in the case of my M especially), because my whole FOO is a real trip and have me second guessing constantly. I think my being NC will continue to show who they really are with each effort to reach out to me. I ignore empty "nice" messages that have no hint of remorse to them, and I do wonder if I'll start getting more insistent, guilting-laden, manipulative communications the more desperate they get and the less I respond.