Fear of NC: 'what if they die and I'll regret not seeing them again?'

[Apparently-wicked]

I'm so sure that any communication with unnpd father is just shouting into a void.  There is nothing there for my words to fall on, he's like a black hole.  A family member said 'god, it's only gonna be me at his funeral now.' as if what the funeral director thinks is more important than how my biological father has behaved his whole life.

He's behaved in a way that has made sure his funeral won't be awash with grieving, bereft family and friends.  That's not my fault, I'm not here to make it look like he wasn't what he was. I wouldn't expect anyone I had abused to go to my funeral, I extend that right to people and I extend that right to myself, to not pretend someone loved me.

Will I regret NC when he dies? Regret what? Regret finally loving myself enough to move myself out of the path of abuse? I can no longer project my fairly normal way of relating to people on to him, assuming he is in any way capable of love.

[JustKathy]

I will close by saying that when she did die, I felt relief. Sweet, sweet relief that was almost euphoric.

Psuedonym, thank you for your entire post, especially for this closing sentence. I still hesitate to say this out loud at the risk of being shamed by people who have no idea what I went through, but I also felt a huge sense of relief when my Nmother died. She died on my birthday, and my first thought was, "Well, she finally gave me a decent birthday gift."

Only those of us who have suffered at the hands of a PD parent can understand celebrating their death, but yeah, I did. I'm glad she's dead. She can't hurt me anymore.

[Stardust1982]

@JustKathy we here understand the feeling of relief, don't worry.
Those who don't understand what it means to have a PD parent are going to find it weird but who cares, as long as we have people who get us and support us in our journey, the other people's opinions don't matter.

[BettyGray]

Just Kathy,

She died on your birthday? What a gift - indeed. Don't worry, I like your dark sense of humor. 

It did not happen on my birthday, but my evil step-MIL passed away a few years back. When we heard, DH and I practically sang "Ding, Dong, the Witch is Dead." Then we went out to lunch to celebrate. Our next thoughts were "thank God she died before him." Because we would have been the ones who had to care for her in her old age as she was estranged from both of her own sons.

Guess we're bad people, huh? 

[Starboard Song]

What if they don't die and you regret seeing them again?

[blues_cruise]

I think you have to do what's right for you in the present moment and if right now you need your space to protect yourself from abuse, then the here and now comes before whatever might or might not happen in the future. 

Question is: how did you handle this thought of regret (if you ever had it) during your NC? Or the thought that NC is so definite and eternal...(the thought that you can't ever see them, talk to them, know about their lives or be there when they get sick or when they die)
Do you think one can live with this thought and overcome the guilt and regret (if any) of never having to go back to them?

I've pondered this in the past and decided that I'm not putting labels on my no contact or making any decisions based on fear. I've made this decision based on straight up facts (i.e. I can't cope with my father's behaviour right now) and with a focus on re-parenting myself so I can become more functional. This helps reframe it as being a vital tool for the present day, but something that has room to adapt in the future if circumstances were to change. I've been working through the childhood trauma for the last few years and it's not the past that prevents any relationship from being re-established, it's more the fact that his dysfunctional and deeply upsetting behaviour would continue into the present day if I allowed myself to be subjected to it. If I think about it in terms of "I'm never ever going to talk to him again" then I become overwhelmed by the thought, so instead I've largely accepted that my father won't be the one to change and that any relationship in the future will have to be based on huge boundaries and improved emotional regulation and self-care on my part. I try to approach this with self-compassion though, because I might never feel in a good enough place. I don't know, I think we can only try our best with the very unfortunate card we've been dealt.

To be honest, if he were to pass away during this necessary self-work I don't think it would be fair to blame myself. I say this from my current, relatively calm adult perspective though and I'm sure my inner child would react differently and be immensely sad. That's the traumatised part of me though and the remnants of a little girl who just desperately wanted her dad to love and look after her. It is what it is and we're standing our ground against toxic family dynamics that have possibly been passed down through generations. I think try to be kind to yourself is what I'm getting at. Although it was your choice to go no contact, the very sad situation as a whole isn't one that you created.

What if they don't die and you regret seeing them again?

Exactly. It's always worth reminding yourself what led to your decision of no contact and grounding yourself in the reality of what reuniting would actually look like.

[Kiki81]

What if YOU died and you never accomplished your own self -directed life?

[JustKathy]

Just Kathy,

She died on your birthday? What a gift - indeed. Don't worry, I like your dark sense of humor. 

It did not happen on my birthday, but my evil step-MIL passed away a few years back. She was so awful that both DH and his brother used to joke about ways to get away with murdering her. When we heard, DH and I practically sang "Ding, Dong, the Witch is Dead." Then we went out to lunch to celebrate. Our next thoughts were "thank God she died before him." Because we would have been the ones who had to care for her in her old age as she was estranged from both of her own sons.

Guess we're bad people, huh? 

"Ding, Dong, the Witch is Dead!" I think I may have sung that one myself.

The weirdest part about my Nmother dying on my birthday was the way I was notified. My GC sister sent me an email wishing me a happy birthday, and in the same sentence, oh, Mom died this morning. Then she asked me for my address, "for the lawyers." Since my father was still living there was no need for lawyers or wills. She was just trying to coax my address out of me since I had moved and ghosted them.

The lack of empathy in that email was shocking to me. I knew my sister had been enmeshed in her life, but never realized just how much she had become her. Who sends an email like that? Happy Birthday, Mom's dead, give me your address, bye.

[practical]

Question is: how did you handle this thought of regret (if you ever had it) during your NC? Or the thought that NC is so definite and eternal...(the thought that you can't ever see them, talk to them, know about their lives or be there when they get sick or when they die)
Do you think one can live with this thought and overcome the guilt and regret (if any) of never having to go back to them?

Yes. When uNPDm died I had made up my mind to contact her the next time I was in the area, it never happened, she died before it. Why did I want to contact her? Because I knew through B she was getting frail and I wanted to tell her "things were fine" between us, so she could die without feeling guilty, wouldn't try to cling to live till she had had contact with me again and could make things right. This was before I came Out of the FOG and is total batshit crazy and sad FOG thinking . "Things were not fine" between us, I just was going to do what I had always done: enable her and ignore my own needs, pain. For some time I regretted at times that I hadn't had a chance to make her life easier, over time I realized my thoughts were about a fictional mother, a mother I wish I had had, not the one I actually did have. I also came to realize whatever I would have done, wouldn't have healed her inner pain, because I wasn't the cause of it nor am I all powerful to cure her illness. I still feel compassion for her to this day, because besides causing me tremendous pain I know she was in unbelievable pain and of the two of us, I'm the fortunate one, I was given the gift of strength to work through it. Coming Out of the FOG helped me with any regrets I originally felt by anchoring me in reality. Sometimes I get wistful about the situation, because some part of me wishes I would have had a mother where a call, a visit, ending NC would have been important, but if I had had such a mother, I would never have gone NC in the first place. So staying with both my feet in reality, facing squarely the hand I was dealt, helps me not to wander off into the FOG.

So I think as long as you can figure out where any thoughts of regret come from, whether or not they are tied to FOG, and stay solidly Out of the FOG and in reality, you'll ultimately be fine. Doesn't mean you won't have moments where you feel regret, I just don't think it will dominate your life.

[DistanceNotDefense]

I still feel compassion for her to this day, because besides causing me tremendous pain I know she was in unbelievable pain and of the two of us, I'm the fortunate one, I was given the gift of strength to work through it. Coming Out of the FOG helped me with any regrets I originally felt by anchoring me in reality. Sometimes I get wistful about the situation, because some part of me wishes I would have had a mother where a call, a visit, ending NC would have been important, but if I had had such a mother, I would never have gone NC in the first place. So staying with both my feet in reality, facing squarely the hand I was dealt, helps me not to wander off into the FOG.

So I think as long as you can figure out where any thoughts of regret come from, whether or not they are tied to FOG, and stay solidly Out of the FOG and in reality, you'll ultimately be fine. Doesn't mean you won't have moments where you feel regret, I just don't think it will dominate your life.

This. This says it so well. It's one of the hardest parts of NC I'm dealing with right now. I see the humanity in my M, and it hits me, hard, sometimes.

But then again, what about my humanity? No one can be expected to stick up for me except for me.

[practical]

I realized something, your question implies something meaningful might happen, if we see our PDparents again.

I came across the following passage in a book about Hospice Care in the chapter on dying: "How do most people actually die? Well, it's not how most of us Imagine. Death has been romanticized by the movies and TV shows we have watched over the years. Quite often people in movies speak up until the moment of their last breath, giving important messages of knowledge, love and kindness to their loved ones. Of all the deaths I have attended, I have never seen a person have any final words or goodbyes to their loved ones prior to passing." (from "Seven keys to a peacefull passing" by Derek J. Flores, p. 68).

So, if a normal person doesn't say anything meaningful at this stage of their life, what chance do we have with PDparents? I know, the above only applies to the time and process of somebody dying, still it was meaningful to me to be told this reality for normal people, to get this reference point.

[D.]

As I have watched this thread evolve it seems it is a lot about the need for closure for the non-PD.  Although I do not yet need to go NC, I have written "good-bye" letters to my parents and exH.  It was incredibly healing for me.  We can safely assume the parent will not say what they need to before they die, but we can.  Even if we never share those words.  I remember my H saying a final good-bye to exwife who was abusive/unfaithful.  Probably not PD, but the behavior mimicked a lot of PD behavior.  His final words helped him a lot.  She could not respond.  If you need NC to be healthy maybe some strategy for closure for you will help?  It seems to me that could help w/avoiding regrets.  Get it done now really...

Just one thought.  This or something like it may or may not work in your circumstance.

[Fortuna]

I love my mom, but I cannot trust her to respect basic boundaries. I might feel bad when she dies, but it won't be regret from not seeing her again. It will simply be grieving the relationship I never had, and will never get to have because of the disorder. I know if I see her again all I'll be is a bundle of nerves, hyper-vigilant, waiting for the boundary-bashing, critical statements, constant dismissal, and CBF. I won't enjoy seeing her, because she's not a good person to be around, at least not for me. So no regrets.

[Stardust1982]

Thank you all for replies.
I have evolved a lot since asking this question. After finishing 'Stop caretaking the borderline or narcisssist', I've realized the question came from the codependent, desperate for love me who, somehow in her mind wanted her PD mom to be different (and hope she'd be different and change during an illness or before dying). And this thought sent me in the state of regret because..if I find that she changed before dying, i wouldn't wanna be NC but actually be there to 'see' and experience how it feels for her to be 'normal' and loving.

This desperate need for the PD parent to change is at the core of a caretaker's soul and personality. I thought I've overcame the need for my mom to change but apparently not. If I truly and completely KNEW she's immune to turn into the mother I always wanted her to be, I'd have no problem going NC immediately and actually sticking to it long-term.

But as the book says, it takes a long time to become a non-caretaker, realize that we should make ourselves the centre of our own lives (and not the PD parent) and start 'joining' the world. Feelings like regret and fear of leaving the PD behind forever are gonna be there for a while until we accept that we were never really loved in this life and might have not even existed for the PD. The book says we actually didn't exist in the eyes of the PD parent because, when someone steps out of the caretaking role and leaves the toxic system, the PD discards them and acts as if they never existed in the first place with (we ONLY existed to fulfill the role of caretaking for their needs and wants). Of course, the PD will put up a fight for a period of time until they find a new caretaker and then, the fight will be dropped too.

I also had a realisation these days when I was observing my family. They do seem to act as normal as possible and they have many normal, ordinary moments where they feel OK to the outsider. But those moments are what makes them so dangerous and unhealthy: you think that, if a PD parent stops mentally abusing you for a few days, they are actually not that bad for you or they may even change if you see them act 'normally'. But that 'normal' behavior is part of their contradictory, confusing and mind-numbing behavior that keeps us stuck in trauma bonds. That 'confusing' characteristic of their behavior is a key trait of mental illness. Healthy individuals are predictable and have predictable ways of behaving into the world. But these people..they have not developed a stable sense of self so they are controlled and manipulated by whatever strong and confusing emotion they feel in the moment.

So, I was thinking that I could not possibly imagine the rest of my life living in this unpredictable state of mind-'Will they be normal today when I call them or abusive?' 'What will they do next?' 'How am I going to react?'

NC will take all that hyperawareness away, that state of waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Hope this makes sense to you.

[practical]

NC will take all that hyperawareness away, that state of waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Hope this makes sense to you.

It does and I wish you all the best on your path. Be mindful it takes quite some time to unlearn the hyperawareness. I caught myself months later still wondering when the other shoe would drop, what was around the next Corner. It does get better, like all healing it takes time.

[DistanceNotDefense]

This desperate need for the PD parent to change is at the core of a caretaker's soul and personality. I thought I've overcame the need for my mom to change but apparently not. If I truly and completely KNEW she's immune to turn into the mother I always wanted her to be, I'd have no problem going NC immediately and actually sticking to it long-term.

Your whole message really opened up something for me stardust. I very much thank you for sharing this.

I'm definitely stuck in unacceptance or not knowing. I haven't accepted or determined if my M is a PD or anything yet. I still have that glimmer that I'll get that text or email where she realizes. Even though I'm NC, I can still see and get information. The other part of me is done, just done with doing any of the work to keep her or other FOO PD drama in my life. I think with more time I will accept.

[ShyTurtle]

"She didn't teach me anything, I had to learn everything about being an adult from other people and on my own. "
[/quote]

I can relate to what you said there so much! Wow. My experiences with my own NPD/BPD adoptive mother definitely crippled me for most of my life until I finally got some real therapy.

First of all, the therapy couldn't have happened had I stayed in touch with her.

And second, I feel like I would be very relieved to not have to worry about her aging and geriatric professionals calling me for support.  I fear this. I will have to tell them I'm not available. I feel like I owe her nothing. She has never been a loving mother to me and more recently only uses me as an emotional dumping ground. For her to die suddenly would be a blessing.

Is that cold? I feel that my actions don't compare to the life-long difficulties she has caused me. (And would continue to cause if I gave her the opportunity.)

[Jolie40]

3 deaths during Covid

most difficult was our dog who collapsed & we brought her to ER vet
we were not allowed in to say good-bye due to covid
still crying over loss of our dog

due to Covid, we did not attend one funeral in person but watched online
we were only family members who didn't attend in person but we can't risk getting sick
other funeral was online only

no regrets on not seeing either family member in person before they died
rather have a better pic of them in my memory from months ago than a sickly, end of life pic in my mind

[JustKathy]

And second, I feel like I would be very relieved to not have to worry about her aging and geriatric professionals calling me for support.  I fear this. I will have to tell them I'm not available. I feel like I owe her nothing. She has never been a loving mother to me and more recently only uses me as an emotional dumping ground. For her to die suddenly would be a blessing.
Is that cold? I feel that my actions don't compare to the life-long difficulties she has caused me. (And would continue to cause if I gave her the opportunity.)

Hi ShyTurtle,

No, it's not cold to hope for a sudden death. When my Nmother was first diagnosed with terminal cancer, I read somewhere (or maybe my therapist told me) that terminally ill PD parents often resort to using elder care workers and/or hospice workers as flying monkeys. These health care professionals are there to care for the elderly/dying person and have no idea that the patient has a PD or that they inflicted any trauma on their child. They will sympathize with the person in their care and can be manipulated into doing their bidding.

That's pretty much what happened with me, except it was my enFather who used the hospice workers when my mother neared the end. He had my email address and could have easily contacted me that way, but I had ghosted after going NC and what he really wanted was my phone number. EnDad told one of the hospice nurses that I was "missing" and asked her to call my dentist for help locating me. I had been seeing this dentist since childhood and the staff knew there was dysfunction in the family, but because the call came from the hospice they felt obligated to call me and pass on the message. He was hoping one nurse would give the other nurse my phone number, but my dental nurse cited doctor-patient confidentiality and instead called me directly.

That was only one call made at the end of Nmother's life, but had I not been NC, I'm sure the calls would have been relentless. Maybe I also sound cold, but IMO the short period of physical pain my mother felt at the end of her life does not compare to the lifetime of emotional pain inflicted on me. I have no regrets about not calling the hospice.

[Hilltop]

So, I was thinking that I could not possibly imagine the rest of my life living in this unpredictable state of mind-'Will they be normal today when I call them or abusive?' 'What will they do next?' 'How am I going to react?'

NC will take all that hyperawareness away, that state of waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Hope this makes sense to you.

I really relate to this.  Going for a visit and wondering if they will be normal today or will they be weird.  It's unsettling.  Then when I am sitting there the hyperawareness of waiting for the dig to happen or the rude comment.

I agree with Blues in the way that I don't want to label things too much at this stage.  I am taking time out as I simply don't want to be around this level of toxicity.  I need to fix myself and that is important to me, it doesn't matter if it isn't important to anyone else.  I don't know how long that will take but if something happens in the meantime I am hoping I don't feel regret.  It wasn't my actions that put me here and I am doing the best I can.  I guess I will deal with whatever arises at the time.  In some ways I look forward to the day when there is no option, they are gone and it's done.