hoarding?

[losingmyself]

So, my H is a little bit of a hoarder. Not too bad, but he tends to keep and collect more than he needs to, leading to piles of junk in certain areas around our home and garage.
Lately, he's been buying toilet paper. There's two of us in our home, and I bet we have 60 rolls of toilet paper. He bought more yesterday. I said "you bought more toilet paper??" He said yeah. I asked him, as nicely but firmly as I could, "Please stop buying toilet paper"  He said "no"  A big thing is that we're struggling financially, and we shouldn't be buying things we don't need. And, he doesn't take advantage of sale or coupons, he just buys stuff. Like the most expensive laundry detergent, etc.  A couple weeks ago we needed dishwasher detergent, he bought like 6 bags of pods.. I think it's because other people are over-buying it, and he wants to get his before it runs out?? I don't know.
I bet if we don't buy any more toilet paper, we'll have enough till March.
What is this behavior? And how do I stop it, or at least slow it down? Hopefully my asking him to stop will work, but he'll just replace it with something else.

[tommom]

losingmyself, if this is hoarding, you can't do much of anything. (I'm not a pro, so I can't say but...) My PDh is one. It started a long time before I met him. Big red flag when we first went to my in-laws and his mother said, "Oh wonderful! Now you can take the magazines."    And she brought out 10 years worth of magazines he had saved (mostly National Geographic) since he was a kid. All nicely wrapped in cut-up and taped-neatly-together brown paper bags.

Magazines were/are always a big problem, but how can you remember specific magazines? (BTW, we have EIGHT subscriptions, currently. Not kidding.) They are designed to be thrown away but I am sure there are tons hidden away in my basement. In my house, though? Nope. I drew a boundary there years ago. (And no one died in that conflict, major though it was!) I toss them regularly if they are upstairs. My PDh is VERY disorganized - very chaotic in his thinking- so he never notices...and doesn't seem to miss them. Or slips into some sort of denial. But throwing them away really doesn't fix it. You are probably right; asking him to stop probably won't work or, if it does it won't last. The most important thing to realize is that as much as it seems to be, it really isn't about the stuff.

First of all know you probably should know this if you don't: much of hoarding has to do with unresolved, massive loss. (In my H's case, he lost his father suddenly when he was two.) That knowledge helps me be more compassionate toward it and him. You have to walk quite a line with a hoarder; between the sorrow you feel and protecting yourself. (and your family, if you have that as an issue at some point.)

It

My H's hoarding wasn't really even that noticeable for at least the first 10 years, though. Hoarding is related to anxiety, as I have read, and in his case that seems to be true. Also, it is a part of OC behavior or OCD itself. I have even read suggestions that it is also a part of narcissism. It DEFINATELY includes denial, and in my H's case, entitlement. If you notice, the T's who specialize in hoarding usually will handle serious denial stuff, like BDD, too. I have read that part of it is also an inability to prioritize, which is certainly true for my H.

We lived in a condo when it started getting bad the first time. The condo had an unfinished, unfloored attic space which he slowly floored with pieces of plywood. Seemed harmless, right? I really didn't pay any attention (bad idea with a hoarder) and by the time we moved, it was fully floored and packed- as was a downstairs bedroom. I just couldn't figure it all out, so good for you for noticing and acting. For H, it sort of evened out for a while, but since his illness (that started about 10 years ago - he had a form of leukemia, successfully treated) and retirement, it has gotten worse and worse. Stress on stress...lots of anxiety.

How do I deal with it? Well, as I said it has been getting worse, especially over the last 8 to 10 years (we've been married over 40). My garage is stuffed, the basement and a sunroom, but it beats the time we had NINE storage rooms full! 

My advice? Don't laugh; I watch Hoarders. (I kind of know them by heart). Learn what you can from them to do about it, if possible. (Not much, sadly.) Don't try to "fix" him; your odds of that are about zip. BUT... You can make it better for YOU, hopefully. I watch for how the therapists and organizers handle their behaviors and use any of it I can. If he problem is denial (not about needing toilet paper, we all do; but about why he would need sixty rolls. Does that seem realistic? I mean, what did people do before it was invented...something, surely and probably not manufactured by Scott? I actually talk to my H like that.

I read about it online, a lot. I do a lot of "study" and I learned what I can throw or give away (often that he doesn't know about) without a problem and I try to talk to him, when I can. (It seems 'out of sight, out of mind' works for him. Good for me!) I don't get angry AT HIM about it. (I try to keep my anger for the junk, but that is really hard to do.) And realize, full on, that he has a mental problem (one of many, sadly, in my H's case) and that was the point where I needed to start.

For several years I have had friends who realized the problem (thank you A&E!) and are willing to help. One has helped clean out our garage...three times in the last ten years. Be prepared, though; he would NOT participate. I am never surprised when the people get revisited on Hoarders and its stacking up again. Oh, and prepare to be accused of being the problem. The last time he did, I calmly asked him into the garage where I pointed out items and asked: "Is that mine?" He didn't get angry, but it did make him very sad. It was the last time I was accused of being "the problem" though.

Don't deny it, though. If it gets too much for, it gets too much. And please, please, realize what could happen. TAKE THAT SUGGESTION VERY SERIOUSLY. I have had several injuries in the last year and a half , spent months off and on in bed recovering AND still need more surgery. I have always been healthy, competent and energetic. Not any more, Consider that carefully for yourself. It is really tough, since hoarder's problems go WAY beyond their stuff. Last of all accept that if he is truly a hoarder, it probably won't change. Hoarding isn't about the stuff; its about other issues.

Most of all,  please, take care of YOURSELF.

Hope I didn't go on too long....tommom

[GettingOOTF]

My experience with this behavior is that it can't be stopped. My ex also leaned towards hoarding. He refused to throw out certain things and would over buy others.

It's a complicated condition. People generally do this to feel "safe" on some level. My ex also always made sure that all the money was spent because he thought this would make it harder for me to leave. This is called financial abuse. I saw both these behaviors intertwined though. My ex would also by the most expensive brands. He insisted on it. He also had a thing with toilet paper.

The deeper issue is your husband's lack of respect for your wishes and the family finances.

My experience is that until he addresses what ever is causing this behavior he will replace it. It's not about the toilet paper, it's about how that makes him feel.

My ex got worse over time. I ultimately chose to leave the marriage. Now I have the exact amount of toilet paper I want and no financial issues.

[Jolie40]

understand TP buying

early in year, TP brand we use vanished from shelves & didn't return for weeks
husband & child have been buying extra now (just in case)
it's stacked to ceiling in our house! I also said stop buying but he said "we'll use it"

pasta shelves were bare, too
so he's stacked up & our oven is used as an extra shelf

[losingmyself]

Thanks, you two. I got good information from both of you!
I know that his desire -need- to keep things come from his childhood, his parents basically abandoned him in his early teens, and he was out on his own when he was 16. He thinks this makes him a stronger person, I suppose it does, but I see many many issues as a result of this, including the hoarding tendencies,  He never had much, and he claims that when he moved back to the town his parents lived in, his belongings were mostly gone. 
Now it's a "I have more than everyone else" thing, I think.
Funny thing is, his parents are the last people he would point to for his issues, if he ever admitted having any. He's still trying to please his dad and show that he's successful.
So, hoarding and control over owning more stuff, also the financial abuse, where you said he tries to keep us financially strapped so I can't leave, is a thing too.
Oh, by the way, probably should be a different post, but I got my own credit card. He hates it. I love it..
Money that's under my control. Not much, but some. It's more of the idea than anything..
Jolie, in the small town we live in, we have never been out of toilet paper. Lucky, I guess

[GettingOOTF]

I have so much compassion for hoarders. I didn’t grow up with much and I used to hold on to things “just in case”. It took me a really long time to actually internalize that I had money and access to anything I needed.

To this day I still feel bad/nervous about “wasting” ridiculous things like kitchen towel, nice packaging etc.

I should add that while I have tremendous compassion for hoarders I will not live with them. I am a strong believer that if your condition negatively impact others then you are obligated to address your issues and if you don’t the other person is free to leave.

[Poison Ivy]

losingmyself, I think your husband is hoarding TP, but it doesn't sound as though he is a "hoarder" generally. I'm not saying that his overbuying of certain products is a good thing, just that it doesn't seem like the hoarding that some people describe here and that is depicted on TV shows.

[IRedW77]

I have what I consider to be some mild to moderate tendencies at this point myself. It can be hard to balance.

I tend to overbuy groceries. If we need one, why not buy three, then I won't have to go shopping again later. Or sometimes I'll stock up on something and discover that I recently already stocked up on that. I just forget. Like I bought a case of coke last night because the one in the fridge is almost empty—whoops, there are 3 cases in the basement already.

When my wife makes the list sometimes she'll put 1 of an item on the list instead of 2 because she knows I'll probably get 3 anyway, but sometimes I actually do only get one and it backfires.

My dad has relatively normal mental health, but he never wastes anything. He'll save this or that and then use it 10 years later. He didn't model the healthiest instincts there.

I'll save the extra screws, or bits of hardware from things and often 2 years later I'll have just the right thing in a drawer—but that drawer is still full of 20 other things I haven't used yet, and even that useful item collected dust for 2 years. I struggle with paralyzing indecision, so often it's hard to decide (agonizing) whether I need to keep that random thing—it'll go into the drawer just to end my struggle.

My BPD mother is a bit of a hoarder, but not extreme. She just has a messy house with too much stuff, but not anything crazy. It's mostly just too many books and too much furniture.

I learned to have an emotional investment in objects from her. It was BAD when I was a kid. I realize now that it was because objects and toys were my safe space.

My mom has BPD, so nothing was stable or reliable (obviously) in my childhood. However, when she was a kid her mother traumatized her by regularly rummaging in her space and throwing away her special objects. Because of this I knew from very early on that whatever my mother might do she'd never mess with my belongings. Those were sacred to her because she wasn't going to do to me what her mom did to her.

I learned to draw huge comfort from the stability and nostalgia of objects and it was wrenching to get rid of ANYTHING. Her attic is still full of almost every toy I ever had as a kid—even most of my baby toys.

It's taken me a long time to break (or severely weaken) that habit of developing emotional attachments to things. I still struggle with getting rid of things. I might NEED it, or it just makes me very sad giving it up.

Unfortunately I've already imparted some of this to my own children. They each have little piles of toys in bed because Daddy lets them bring things to bed. My daughter also knows that Daddy will go and get her toy she left downstairs once she's in bed.

I'll also tear the house upside down and apart if they ever lose anything. I can't handle it. They're usually fine, but I lose my sh**. I have very traumatic memories of losing treasured objects, so I have to conceal the emotional impact on me when I can't find their things.

I can't stand it when anything goes missing. I will not stop looking. Someday I'll find my set of keys that a GF lost in 2003. They're out there somewhere. 

It's satisfying, but a little scary to watch your young children surpass emotional and developmental milestones that you still struggle with. My daughter's special stuffy had to go in the wash the other day. My wife had to do it and my wife had to talk to her and explain how it was ok. She was reluctant, but she was fine once she understood.

Meanwhile, I was in the other room having an anxiety attack/emotional meltdown because I was reliving the agony of sitting by the washer and dryer waiting for my comfort object to come back to me. It was like hearing about a friend's sick pet when yours just passed away 2 months ago.

It's hard sometimes not to project our emotional pain onto children—because that's what was done to us. Thankfully I know SHE doesn't feel it, but I still feel it on her (really my) behalf.

For the record, we currently only have one package of TP.

[Jolie40]

husband just told me tonight, after returning from grocery shopping, that store has been out of our TP for three weeks now
so he said "go easy on the TP!"

@losingmyself
hopefully by next fall Covid will let up so your husband & mine won't feel need to stock up on TP
maybe then stores shelves won't be going empty & quantity limits won't be needed

[Cascade]

My husband isn't a true hoarder but he over buys things like yours does (and struggles with throwing things out). I do most of the shopping so it's not a huge issue thankfully but he has been buying a lot of Christmas candy lately. And then when they don't get eaten fast enough he thinks I don't like them and gets offended. 

We've struggled financially for most of our marriage too, so why buy two big bags of something when one small bag will do? That's not a concept my husband understands. He does the same with gifts sometimes. I'll ask for something and I'll get six 😁. I felt really bad that year because that was the year our daughter bought me the same thing, and I think it made her feel like her gift was worthless to me, though hers was chosen thoughtfully.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I realize now that it was because objects and toys were my safe space.

I think this says it all, really. Thank you for that insight, Red!

[losingmyself]

poison ivy, I agree with you. It doesn't seem like he fits exactly into the hoarding range. I just don't understand the over-buying. Even though we need the money for bills.
He fills his sleeping pills every month, even though he takes very few. He went to the grocery store today, and I'm curious how much he spent. We needed two or three things.
Cascade, in this situation we experience  the same thing.  And the gifts! Complain about spending too much, then tell me we didn't get his brother enough. Maybe it's showing off.  I think I wouldn't be so irritated by it if he were working. But he knows he's making less on workman's comp, so he should know to pay attention.
I do wonder if having things is his 'safe place', too.
And, Red1, I do a lot of those saving things, too. I do a lot of crafty work, and think I can make something out of a neat thing I found, I also save screws from things. But it wouldn't bother me to get rid of them, either. Sometimes I just go through and throw things away.
Thanks for all your insight, everyone.

[IRedW77]

Saving loose screws and bits of things also used to be easier when I was younger and my memory was better. A lot of times I'll remember that I had just the thing I need for whatever I'm doing right now, but not where I put it, or that I already used it. I do not and never have had good organization skills. The times I really can't find something it's because I cleaned and put all the things neatly away somewhere. But where?

I often play the "hmm... If I were me where would I have put that?" game with myself.

[1footouttadefog]

BTW, 60 rolls of TP is childs play. I keep at least two 48 roll Sams Club packs ahead at all times.  Its like down to two, need to pick up some next trip.  Covid came along and I did not need to buy TP. "Come on man", there could be a pandemic at any time wjat are you thinking.  Okay, yes I feel validated having two slightly dusty TP bundles on the top garage shelf, only to read here I am a hoarder. Sigh. 

My home is neat and typically uncluttered and may even seem spartan or minimalist to some in terms of decor and landscaping.  I like open spaces between firnishings and despise knicknacks and dust collectors.  The cars must be parked, or be able to be parked in garage with adequate room to circum-navigate them.  I despise things on surfaces or in walk areas.

Despite that my shed and a couple of closets are stuffed with too much. I struggle to keep the shelves in the garage orderly and I have a few drawers that are uncomfortably full.  I get emotionally uncomfortable when I need to declutter bookshelves.  I had a national Geo collection for decades. As soon as I saw them available on CD rom in the 90's I reduced them to a handful and kept the maps only.  I have limited myself to a single magazine subscription because this a weak area for me. 

When I was young I did reconstructive house cleaning for hoarders. I worked with folks descretely to remove clutter, clean and paint etc so they could date again after a divorse, or let adult kids move back home etc. 

I get the hoarders to an extent.  I am into preparedness and interact with preppers ar times.  There are alot of hoarders among preppers as it justifies hoarding. 

What I have seen in common in hoarder programs, among hoarders I have known
And those on tv, is that they often seem to have a fantasy where they will someday be proven right for having the junk.  They will save the day and be the smart guy the man of the hour.  They will be the Mac Guyver who solves post apicalyptic issues and help to rebuild a new world and they will be in the new elite because of their skills and junk.  Or due to the curated collection of knowledge in those magazines or books etc. 

I think this all speaks to how they feel about their place in the real world. 

I prep for things like flat tires and storms,
and stand still traffic on the interstate (TP  snacks drinks in car bag, yeppers,) not the apocalypse. I might add pandemics to my list as the experts seem to ve promising more.  I will revaluate my TP storage for 2021. Maybe if I can compress it I can make room for masks and bleach spray, lol. 

 

[losingmyself]

I'm sure I could be categorized as having hoarding tendencies, also, as I have piles of things, like a bunch of stuff from my parent's house, my childhood home, in the basement with just nothing to do with them. I have the contents of my dad's office, not the paperwork, but the plaques that celebrate his sales in insurance, photos of people I don't know, etc.  Why would I keep them? Why would I get rid of them?? I'm stuck, so they sit, taking up space, collecting dust. I think my children would agree, Mom keeps too much stuff. I will have you know that since we had to mail more gifts than usual this year, we had just the right amount of boxes and packing material for everything. JUSTIFIED!!
H's hoarding tendencies, and I only say he leans toward it, is much more messy, more disorganized, with saving things that there's no way he'll ever use. He did get rid of a lot of things this summer, so I was proud of him, but hardly made a dent, and the novelty wore off, and he quit almost as soon as he started, it seemed.
The thing I have the biggest problem with is the disregard for our current financial situation, and how much I'm working and stressing out about bills, and he goes and spends  $100 at the grocery store on things we don't need, like more toilet paper. And I get resentful. And he honestly can't figure out why our bills aren't paid. I'm going to assume he does, and doesn't care, for some reason. I'll never figure it out.
1foot, I would come to your house and enjoy the big spaces, as I am the kind of person who, if there's an empty space on the wall, I fill it up. I like stuff. as long as there's room for it. I have passed on getting many things I wanted, just because I had no room.
Thanks for your input everyone!

[Poison Ivy]

losingmyself, I understand your stress about the financial effects of your husband's behavior. When I was married, there were many years when our finances weren't great. My ex wasn't a hoarder like on TV shows, but he has some hoarding tendencies, and it still bothers me to see in the house (which I got in the divorce) things that he bought and never used.

[losingmyself]

A fantasy of mine is getting a big roll-off container and just dumping everything into it. I don't care if it's worth anything, I would just like to park in my garage.
Earlier this year while he was cleaning and getting rid of things, we ended up with almost enough room in the garage for my car. I mentioned that if we just shuffled a few more things around, I could park in there. It was like I suggested selling the roof off our house. That was just crazy talk, and kind of pissed him off. So, It's filling up again.

[Poison Ivy]

I have the dumpster fantasy, too!

[losingmyself]

last night I was looking for something under the kitchen sink, and I kept pulling out rinse-aid. He said earlier that he was happy because he found a big bottle of it at the store.
I pulled out 4 full bottles, plus the big one he just bought! I told him that we probably had enough, he fought back, and I said that it wasn't like we could afford to keep buying things that we don't need!
Mistake.
Now he's on a rant that we can't afford anything at all, ever. I said this morning that I was going to go to the grocery store after work today to get something for supper. He said "Well, don't go too extravagant, because we're broke, you know" I said "well, do you think we're doing well financially?" No comment.
I'm just so tired of this........
Merry Christmas, everyone. I hope you all have the Christmas you deserve, which is awesome!

[Prototypian]

My uOCPDw and I are polar opposites on this issue.  She can't let anything go.that is a memory.   I prefer to have one good photo that is displayed prominently and she prefers to keep every single photo in piles whether in focus or even of our kids or not.   I'm a true minimalist; if it doesn't fit, I'm not using it or it doesn't meet my needs I throw it away or donate it and have no fear of the loss.  She is deeply concerned that whomever receives the thing may not use it correctly or may not be the best person to donate it to.   My kids are in college or late high school but we have every car seat they have ever ridden in.   I know that on some level it's memories to her and on some level it's fear of waste.   Her mother was the same, she proudly gave us a late 1970s era metal car seat that was supposed to be bolted through the floor of a vehicle and was somewhat surprised when I threw it away for a modern, "clip into the car" car seat.   I suppose my spouse will do the same thing to our kids.

We have literally every check stub, every bank statement, every magazine, and most newspapers going back 27 years in case she needs something.   We have not been able to throw away stacks of filled vacuum bags for fear there are legos which have been sucked into them (she is going to take the time to do surgery someday and they sit in a giant pile on a shelf in the garage.   Broken flowerpots and plastic containers sit in piles in the garage and backyard because they could have use.

We have chickens and they produce more eggs than we can use and the level of despair and emotional damage that occurs when one gets broken yet there is an entire fridge filled with likely 100 dozen eggs.

It's maddening!  I can't explain it, I can't understand it, the attachment to things and fear of waste drives us into a living hell.