His Lawyer Submitted a Ridiculously Lowball Settlement Proposal. Normal?

[LiftingFog]

I'm divorcing my UNH (did I do that correctly?) after only 18mths of marriage, all of which I've been a fog.  His controlling behavior started exactly 2 weeks after we married and it escalated into gaslighting, blameshifting, overreacting, and manipulation.  He refused therapy, saying he didn't cause our relationship to disintegrate - I did.

We bought our dream house in the mountains, with him funding 100% of it.  My name is on the deed.  In turn, I have paid 69K of his out of pocket expenses for him and the house - downpayment on his Tesla, downpayment on the trailbuilders that are building mountain bike trails at our mtn home, purchase of 2 additional acres of land to prevent building on it...I paid this out of my pocket because he was cash poor, and we were a team.  Allegedly.

There was a tax bill of $33K back in April, $23K of which was because of my finances.  It was paid via the HELOC loan he took out on our house but I have no access to - I tried to put a freeze on it and couldn't.  We filed jointly, as a married couple, April of this year, before any talk of divorce.

Even if I were to pay back the $23K for my portion of our joint taxes, he would still owe me over $40K.

I don't know how divorce court works, and I'm in the middle of an anxiety attack.

His attorney just submitted a settlement offer of $5600 to "Even out the marital expenses."  I'm shaking.

Is this normal?  I have a great lawyer, but it's the weekend so I don't expect a response from him until Monday.

[Poison Ivy]

I understand why you're shaking. I do think it's typical for people to submit ridiculous settlement proposals, at least when starting the process. That doesn't mean that everyone does; I didn't when I was going through my divorce.

Breathe, make sure you have all your relevant financial information, and on Monday, ask your lawyer whether he or she has all the financial info.

[GettingOOTF]

It's not uncommon. I know you are upset, but I'd try stay calm and talk to your attorney on money.

I know someone who was separated did for years. Her ex finally started the divorce he'd been avoiding and demanded among other things that she pay for him to go back to college and pay his health insurance while he studied as he'd recently lost his job. I recommended an attorney. She said my attorney just laughed when he shows him the demands.

Your ex can ask for anything he wants, that doesn't mean he'll get it.

[LiftingFog]

Thank you both for responding!  I was in such a state of anxiety and needed to be talked down. 

My attorney knows his attorney and has said that he's fair and reasonable.  That's why when I saw the initial settlement proposal, I was numb.

I have all my financial stuff ready.  I spent a week going through my accounts, printing out canceled checks and bank withdrawals.  I also went through 18 mths of emails and texts between UNH and me and  printed out every email and text that showed evidence of control, manipulation and gaslighting.  I have about 50 pages worth and I'm going to use different colored tabs to categorize them.  Reading through all those emails and messages was incredibly cathartic.  I felt ALL the emotions.  But I also saw the decline of my mental health (along with his) and how I truly did everything I could to save us.  Because love. 

But I love myself more.

I will update you on Monday. 

[Poison Ivy]

Here's one possibility about the ridiculously lowball settlement proposal: Your husband wanted to offer you zero, and his lawyer said, "You can't do that. Starting from zero is not a legitimate negotiating tactic." The client (e.g., your husband) is supposed to be making the decisions, even if the lawyer disagrees with the decisions, so this settlement proposal is not necessarily a reflection of the lawyer's reasonableness.

[GettingOOTF]

I'm not an attorney but it's probably very good that this was a short marriage and all so recent as you have documentation.

Good luck. Stick around here, many have been where you are.

As far as his attorney being reasonable, remember that his attorney only knows what he has told him, and he likely left out all the info about you paying for various things.

[pushit]

Have you both submitted financial disclosures to the courts?  In my case both parties submitted all their financial information and the other side had access to it, then there was some back and forth over things that might be missing.  Once both sides have the financial info in front of them then you can start negotiating a settlement.  If your lawyer hasn't seen financial disclosures from their side then it's highly possible that his lawyer hasn't been told the whole story.  Was the settlement offer sent directly to you?  It should be going through your lawyer, during my divorce I had zero contact with my ex's lawyer.

As long as you can document what money came from you to pay for things, you should be able to get your fair portion of it back.  The fact that you are on the deed of the house is a good thing for you, especially if it was purchased after you were married.  In my state everything that a person brings into the marriage goes back to that person, everything that came in while married was considered marital property if it is co-mingled (i.e., both names on the account).  If you inherit $10 million while you're married, your spouse can have half of that in the divorce unless you kept it in an account with only your name on it.  If he owned the house beforehand, it's his.  If he bought it while you were married and your name is on the deed, then half could be yours.  (Again, in my state)  Just giving you an example, your lawyer will know what laws apply in your situation.

Honestly, I wouldn't get too worked up about it.  When I went through divorce I was amazed at how cookie cutter the settlement agreements are.  The courts have seen every shenanigan known to man, and they have formulas to work everything out in a fair manner.  Things that I thought were going to result in drawn out arguments were easily settled by applying an equation to it.

[LiftingFog]

Thanks guys.  Your comments have really helped me to feel better.

I know my attorney has requested financial statements from UNH.  He earns 6x what I earn, and he didn't want me to work my part time jobs once we married so I quit working. 

I own my house solely.  UNH only moved in with me for 6 mths before we found and bought our dream home.  So at least I have a place to live!

I don't want any of his pension, I have my own.  I'm technically retired and receive a small monthly pension.  It's not much, but I can pay my mortgage.  Not much else, though.  And I have my own health insurance.  Additionally, no kids, so it's all only about the final dollar amount that needs to be decided.  My lawyer stated that in our state, it's normally 50/50, but it's up to the judge to decide.  If we go to court, my H risks losing "his" house completely if the judge decides that I deserve it. I do know that with his severe debilitating social anxiety, he does NOT want to go to court.  (My job during the marriage was to walk on eggshells to prevent him feeling any anxiety about anything.  It was exhausting!)  Nor would he want me to present all my printouts of his messages and emails showing obvious emotional abuse! 

Prior to lawyering up, he had offered me $20K to walk away and sign everything over. I was in an emotional state at that time and in a fog, so I said okay.  But when I started adding everything up, I realized I had spent more out of pocket than I realized.  When I mentioned it to him via email, he tried to bully me by saying, "We agreed to this...I expect this to be amicable!"  I cut him off there and said I'd seek legal advice, and please don't email me again, and he freaked.  I got the "babe!  Babe!  Why do we need legal advice?"  I refused to respond, so he ended up texting my best friend telling her that I was unwell and to check up on me.   

When I went the following week to pick up my stuff, I brought 2 friends and a UHaul.  UNH locked himself in his office while a friend of his stood by.  3 hours later, as we were pulling away, he ran to my car, holding a stack of papers and an open checkbook.  He had printed out a bunch of docs and wanted me to sign them in exchange for a check...because he knew how strapped I am for $, thanks to him.  I told him I wasn't signing anything.  "But babe...babe..."

I'm so happy to be free from his manipulation and being  blamed 100% for everything.  And I'm not looking to make money off this - I just want enough to be whole again.

Thank you all for chiming in with your care and advice.  I feel better just talking it out, even if it's behind a computer screen.

ETA:  He paid 100% cash for the new house with proceeds from the sale of his old house.  The plan was for me to sell mine, too, and use the equity to pay off the HELOC loan.  Thank goodness I didn't sell my house!!  Something in my gut told me to hold off...so glad I did!

[LiftingFog]

To answer your question Pushit, yes, the settlement offer came via my lawyer from his lawyer.

[pushit]

What did your lawyer initially say about the offer when it came through?  Or was it one of those Friday afternoon things where the lawyer said "look it over and let's discuss"?

It sounds to me like you're actually sitting in a really good position.  He is at risk of losing the house, you're at risk of losing some money but still have your house to live in.  You can push him to trial if you want, he wants that less than you, and he has more to lose than you at trial once everything is exposed.

The best advice I could give is do the math on your end to figure out what you need out of it to survive, and figure out what you are entitled to if the courts rule 50/50 (like giving you half the house value).  Go into negotiations knowing your worst and best case scenarios and negotiate to somewhere in between.  Arm yourself with knowledge of how the courts would likely rule if it went to trial, that will give you leverage during mediation.  Your lawyer is the best help for this. 

I'll share a quick example from my divorce.  My exPDw inherited a nice sum of money while we were together and co-mingled all of it.  She accepted my initial financial offer because I offered all that inheritance back to her.  I did that because it got me some other things I wanted - the big ones were control of the kids' college funds and me keeping sole rights to my business.  I also did that just because it felt right, it should be her money.  If the tables were turned it would really upset me if my ex wanted half of my inheritance.  I also wanted to hold my head high, be able to look people in the eye and tell them I never got a dime of that if the subject ever came up.  Instead, you can use things like that for leverage on other issues that are more important to you.

At some point you also have to weigh how much you want your lawyer to fight for you.  At $300/hr they aren't cheap.  Once we got past the big issues it wasn't worth paying him $3k to fight over $4k in assets.  It eventually gets to a point where you just want the lawyer off the payroll and your ex in the rear view.

[LiftingFog]

What did your lawyer initially say about the offer when it came through?  Or was it one of those Friday afternoon things where the lawyer said "look it over and let's discuss"?

Close - Saturday morning with "For your review and comment"

It sounds to me like you're actually sitting in a really good position.  He is at risk of losing the house, you're at risk of losing some money but still have your house to live in.  You can push him to trial if you want, he wants that less than you, and he has more to lose than you at trial once everything is exposed.

He has a LOT to lose - he's put another 200K into building trails in the previously unusable back yard.

The best advice I could give is do the math on your end to figure out what you need out of it to survive, and figure out what you are entitled to if the courts rule 50/50 (like giving you half the house value).  Go into negotiations knowing your worst and best case scenarios and negotiate to somewhere in between.  Arm yourself with knowledge of how the courts would likely rule if it went to trial, that will give you leverage during mediation.  Your lawyer is the best help for this. 

I will do this. Thank you.

I'll share a quick example from my divorce.  My exPDw inherited a nice sum of money while we were together and co-mingled all of it.  She accepted my initial financial offer because I offered all that inheritance back to her.  I did that because it got me some other things I wanted - the big ones were control of the kids' college funds and me keeping sole rights to my business.  I also did that just because it felt right, it should be her money.  If the tables were turned it would really upset me if my ex wanted half of my inheritance.  I also wanted to hold my head high, be able to look people in the eye and tell them I never got a dime of that if the subject ever came up.  Instead, you can use things like that for leverage on other issues that are more important to you.

The only issue is money.  We were only married for 18 mths.  Amazing how so much abuse can happen is such a short period of time.

At some point you also have to weigh how much you want your lawyer to fight for you.  At $300/hr they aren't cheap.  Once we got past the big issues it wasn't worth paying him $3k to fight over $4k in assets.  It eventually gets to a point where you just want the lawyer off the payroll and your ex in the rear view.

My lawyer is $450/hr and I've gotten a loan from my brother.    Sadly, dear brother is acting weird about it so I want to pay him back ASAP.

I'll let you all know what my lawyer says Monday.  I'm hoping that he'll open the door to the emotional abuse in his discussions with UNPDh's lawyer and let him know that I'm ready with my proof. 

[GettingOOTF]

Abuse, especially emotional abuse, is really hard to prove in courts. My personal focus during my divorce was protecting my assets. That was all I cared about and all I focused on.

If you are looking for some kind of admittance of abuse from him or some kind of official record of the abuse you will not get it. In general abusers fight tooth and nail not to admit fault and they also use the divorce as another opportunity to abuse and control.

This is a simplistic account of my situation but basically I focused on my assets and l put the entire marriage down to a learning experience that I will never again repeat. I walked away with all my assets, went to therapy and rebuilt an amazing life. I could have spent years and who knows how much money trying to get some kind of validation. Looking back now I see it didn’t matter. Nothing he said or did would have changed anything. I often tell people that in a divorce from a PD you can’t have an ego. You need to treat it like a business deal. The only thing you can get out of a divorce is money/property. The rest is best left for a therapists office. Your attorney should not be spending your money trying to get him to agree that he is an awful person.

[Phoenix Rising]

Yes, I think the lowball proposal is normal when dealing with a high-conflict, abusive ex. For them, it's a just a game and another way to have power over you. What I've experienced is that they often get their legal representative to give the lowest possible offer and that they do not disclose all their assets. PDs can fight dirty and count on you to be a wreck and/or to erupt. Courts (if it gets that far) don't care about emotional or psychological abuse. I know it's hard but try to stay business-minded with this matter.

From what I've read, you had much more in this marriage than I did when I was going through this. Just before I ended things, he borrowed from my investments to pay off his debts.. never saw that money again. All I wanted was the home for our children... no repayment, no maintenance, no child support. I just wanted him out of my life ASAP.  While I recognize you may want different things, I think it was the best decision I ever made in my situation to just let him think he "won". To move very far away and begin building a better life for myself.

I hope it's OK to suggest...focus on the bare minimum you would accept and provide your lawyer with that instruction (if you haven't already).

You can and you will get through this. Hang in there

[LiftingFog]

Abuse, especially emotional abuse, is really hard to prove in courts. My personal focus during my divorce was protecting my assets. That was all I cared about and all I focused on.

If you are looking for some kind of admittance of abuse from him or some kind of official record of the abuse you will not get it. In general abusers fight tooth and nail not to admit fault and they also use the divorce as another opportunity to abuse and control.

This is a simplistic account of my situation but basically I focused on my assets and l put the entire marriage down to a learning experience that I will never again repeat. I walked away with all my assets, went to therapy and rebuilt an amazing life. I could have spent years and who knows how much money trying to get some kind of validation. Looking back now I see it didn't matter. Nothing he said or did would have changed anything. I often tell people that in a divorce from a PD you can't have an ego. You need to treat it like a business deal. The only thing you can get out of a divorce is money/property. The rest is best left for a therapists office. Your attorney should not be spending your money trying to get him to agree that he is an awful person.

You know, you're right.  I need to keep my focus on the end game.  I have a great life, great therapists, and have made new dreams.

Thank you for a gentle wake up call!

[LiftingFog]

PhoenixRising - Thank you for this - you are right.  I do have a bottom dollar amount that my lawyer is aware of.  He set the bar extremely high, too, asking for nearly double of what I wanted.

...and breathe.

[1footouttadefog]

I agree with treating it like business.  The pd will never give you the validation you want, which is part of why you are divorsing.

Life is on the otherside, stay strong.

[LiftingFog]

My lawyer forwarded me the proposed settlement offer Saturday morning, and I haven't heard anything back from him yet.  I know it's only Tuesday, but I feel like I'm in a holding pattern.  I'm having a hard time being productive here. 

I emailed him this morning a much calmer email.  (I sent panicky emails Saturday after I had read the ridiculous offer.)  I just said, "Clearly I am not accepting their offer.  What are your recommendations as to how we should respond?"

And now I wait.  Let me know when I can exhale.

I really appreciate everyone's responses and I've come back to this thread many times already just to re-read your words.  They are helping!

[LiftingFog]

JUST HEARD FROM MY LAWYER!

He sent an email to H's lawyer itemizing all expenses I paid towards the new house (that i've only spent a total of 12 nights in since we purchased it last Dec.) totalling approx. $80K.

I have documentation for all of that too.

He closed the email by saying, "I renew my suggestion that at some point we should schedule a meeting, albeit remotely, to pursue realistic settlement discussions."

I feel better. 

[GettingOOTF]

Divorce is a very slow moving process under the best of circumstances. The most important thing is that you are away from him. Try to let it unfold the way it will and not get stressed and panicked.  Figure out what is important to you and do what you need to to ensure that's what you end up with.

[pushit]

Sounds like you're on a good path, your lawyer made it clear to the other side that it's an unrealistic offer.  Now it's your ex's lawyer's job to bring your ex back to reality and offer a decent settlement.  That's one of the best parts of the process, that you no longer have to convince an unreasonable person to be reasonable.  The laws will do that for you.

I remember during my divorce my lawyer said "Divorce is a lot of hurry up and wait".  You'll have times when you're under the gun to get a response back to the other side while they're shouting about something, and then once you send it back things go quiet for two weeks.  Then you're overloaded with things to respond to, then silence again.  That is typical, so don't get stressed about not hearing back on things right away.  Lawyers also have to prioritize their clients' level of emergency.  There were times when I reached out to my lawyer to find out what was going on, only to find out he was in the middle of emergency hearings for three restraining or custody orders for other clients that had bigger problems happening than I did.  My lawyer also said "I will always get back to you, but if I don't get back to you right away consider that a good thing, it means this isn't that big of an issue to solve".