Was this a toxic, abusive relationship?

Started by foggydude, January 12, 2021, 10:38:27 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

JollyJazz

Hi Foggy,

I think its awesome how much insight you have, and how hard you are working on the healing stuff!

The thing is with us people that are raised to be codependent / pleaser types - we sure know how to work hard, and are more than willing to accept that there are things to work on (we usually blame ourselves far too much) but it also sets us up amazingly to heal and grow! Yay :)

QuoteTruth is, the only way I got her was due to my codependence and people pleasing. I was so willing to meet her diet, alcohol abstination and quit smoking requirements. I had connected so deeply an knew I wanted her. I'm not going to do that again.

Yes I have a lot to offer but so do other men. She had been with men older than me previously, but I did not know that

Still think what you've read is accurate here? Still think I can meet someone like that ? That I have that level of attraction to physically and on the love, affection and attention spectrums?

This is awesome :) Yes, I definitely think you can find someone at least as attractive, and that you will find someone with a much nicer personality next time. Once we stop the pleasing/trying so hard, we can start to let into our life people that are kind, want to help us...
I know when you are feeling down it might not feel like it (and after a lifetime of emotional abuse), but try to remember your good points :) self compassion can be a struggle, but one that's worth it. I'm still struggling with mine, but I'm getting there.

I'm so confident that you will get through this foggy :)
I think that you are really in the worst part of a break up, after the initial shock has worn off, but this pain will subside. You are totally doing everything right.

Would it help to remind yourself of her bad points next time you think of her? Not to be mean, but she really doesn't sound like a very nice person AT ALL,

foggydude

You arent being mean, you are being helpful. She cannot see that I had nothing to do with her being violent towards me. She says his my fault. She cant see this.

In the same way, I cannot see her meanness. I agree, she is mean. Please, tell me how you think she is mean because I'm deaf to it.

Last I spoke to her, rhe only thing she thinks of me is that I abandoned her. That is her memory of me and how she is getting over me.

I should employ the same technique to rid limerence. Tell me her mean stuff please
things are not good or bad, they just are....Buddha

my religion is simple, my religion is kindness
be kind whenever possible, it is always possible

The Dalai Lama

JollyJazz

HI Foggy,

My guess is the intellectual part of you sees this - but its harder for the emotional part. Keep up with the good work you are doing, with therapy and all the books you are working through - things WILL change and you will start to see it all differently (for the better) :)

She was mean by: being incredibly abusive to you, controlling you (i.e. forcing you into her 'healthy' habits - PD's like to claim its 'for our own good' but really what its about is control, making you feel less than), financial abuse - making you pay for everything, hitting you, repeatedly, calling you names, criticizing you. Horrible, horrible stuff.

Would it help to imagine someone else doing this to another person?

I know we are raised to think abuse is normal to us - that's literally how we were raised. Please keep working hard on this - it may not feel like it now, but you are doing awesomely, I feel like you are going to have a break through on this... and it will help to lead to a much happier life for you :)

P.S. maybe some movies about emotional abuse might help: https://www.dailyo.in/arts/five-hollywood-films-that-trace-stories-of-emotional-abuse/story/1/1968.html

and

https://www.humanrightscareers.com/issues/movies-domestic-violence-abusive-relationships/

When I was in a horrendously emotionally abusive relationship (before therapy) I was starting to see it, I had secretly read a book on emotional abuse and was starting to (intellectually) come Out of the FOG. I watched a TV show with a horrid, emotionally abusive character, and that helped me to see things a little more clearly.

You'll get there foggy, sending a big hug  :bighug:

foggydude

Ok this is very helpful to me. Yes she claimed her healthy diet on me was only for my good. So that I would have a lower risk of health issues and she wouldn't have to care for me in the future as I have a poor family history (lost 2 siblings to cancer), even though I told her if anything happened to me, I could afford a nurse. She said it doesnt work like that

Ironically, I took care of her during a lengthy illness and felt guilty because she complained I wasn't and didnt do a good enough job! It passed through my busy work season and I forfeited tremendous financial oppty for her. We were only together for a few months when this happened.

Brought her to the hospital as she was so jaundiced, it scared me. This was after I (last minute) cancelled a weekend w my friends to go to a meditation retreat with her instead. I gave in again! She got sick. The doctors wanted her to have a gall bladder removal. She said no she would heal it by diet. She left the hospital against their suggestions but I sat there with her for 4 days and nights.

Clearly her perfect diet wasn't helping her and she is young!

Then we went away . she ate near 0 fat. This is not healthy. On vaca she had paying guests and I fed them. Paid for the food and cooked every vegan meal for them for 1 week in a kitchen that was the absolute worst. Nor am I a cook let alone a vegan one. She couldnt help cuz shw was so weak. What a total arse pain but I did it out of love. This after we broke up cuz I wanted to eat fish. I gave in again.

Furthermore, she felt her spirituality was superior to all others. Only she and other "devotees" knew the truth. This too was about control. Not about helping someone like me.

My lesson here from you is that the ulterior motiive is control. This is mean. Whether its conscious or not.

Ive been blaming it and rationalizing through her pd. Thats BS.

Ty for helping me clear this up. This helps me.

Lastly, I read a beautiful story to her about being a lighthouse and how everyone is attracted to them. You dont have to be a boat to go out and bring people in. When I said this is how I feel you operate with your lifestyle and spirituality and  diet....i said stop running people down, let them find you. She WAS OUTRAGED AND OFFENDED.

I also think she was not so strong in her beliefs and this is why she wanted to recruit me snd others.... To reinforce her want and need for this cult like life. She wasn't secure in it at all.

Ty so very much jazzy. I will look at some of those movies.

Ironically we saw one movie like this together after an abusive session where she nearly broke my car door. It still doesn't operate properly.  She took my glasses and slapped me and stormed off in the highway cuz I had to pull over she we so mad. She kept saying I AM GETTING WORSE, YOU ARE MAKING IT WORSE, I AM GONNA FREAK OUT, IM GONNS LOSE IT....then she did.

I said nothing after the movie. I cant believe I even went to it after that 1.5 hour problem with her.

She was MEAN. She isnt nice. THANK YOU FOR THIS.
I cant believe I would even consider getting back with her after the last abuse let alone all the others.

I have a bad habit if forgetting on purpose....do you?
things are not good or bad, they just are....Buddha

my religion is simple, my religion is kindness
be kind whenever possible, it is always possible

The Dalai Lama

foggydude

#24
Quote from: JollyJazz on January 18, 2021, 10:02:55 PM

Would it help to imagine someone else doing this to another person?


P.S. maybe some movies about emotional abuse might help: https://www.dailyo.in/arts/five-hollywood-films-that-trace-stories-of-emotional-abuse/story/1/1968.html

and

https://www.humanrightscareers.com/issues/movies-domestic-violence-abusive-relationships/

When I was in a horrendously emotionally abusive relationship (before therapy) I was starting to see it, I had secretly read a book on emotional abuse and was starting to (intellectually) come :

Yes it would help to imagine someone else. A friend said, what would I tell her if ahe told me the same story?

Those movies look awesome!

Sadly I too was in an emotionally abusive marriage for a long time....too long. My wife said to me more than once, I am going to hit myself in the head with this frying pan, call the police and tell them you did it.

Shortly after I too read Emotional Blackmail secretly. It opened my eyes.

Just like this time when I read Stop Caretaking the BPD or NPD!

YOU made some great points here. As my friend Timber says, don't cut down trees to make yourself look taller!

It is about control. To make them feel superior and you less. Secretly kills self esteem. Erodes self image and confidence.
This control makes them feel safe and loved. Sadly, this provides the opposite of what they actually want, authentic love.

Just like people pleasing provides the opposite of what I want....to be loved as is.
things are not good or bad, they just are....Buddha

my religion is simple, my religion is kindness
be kind whenever possible, it is always possible

The Dalai Lama

JollyJazz

#25
Hi Foggy,

Its awesome that the self help books are helping you Out of the FOG! :) That is how I started to get free (mentally)
Wow - your ex sounds so abusive.
She was also doing isolating things - like getting you to cancel get togethers with friends, and the controlling your diet... like I say, I am vegan and would never ever, pressure anyone else to do this... it is YOUR body and you shouldn't be shamed or told what to do with it. Abusers are really good at making you feel like they are 'helping you' the other implication is that you are 'less than', that you need to be helped. Ugh, and breaking your car door, hitting you. I think it's so terrific you went to the police. She is a complete domestic abuser, horrible stuff!

BPD is a really serious mental illness, sometimes BPD's need to be hospitalised...

There's actually a good post on the glossary about abuse amnesia - forgetting the bad things on purpose, it is VERY common, and a survival tactic we learned in childhood.
All the therapy and self help books helped me to get past the 'abuse amnesia' I have been working on things for years... I still am!

One therapist showed me the 'power and control' wheel :
Quotehttps://www.google.com/search?q=power+and+control+wheel&rlz=1C1GCEB_enAU919AU919&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB88Lp-KjuAhV9zjgGHfW9BFgQ_AUoAXoECBIQAw&biw=1280&bih=610
Basically there are different behaviours, and the abuser definitely doesn't need to do all of them to be an abuser, there are many different tactics, types of abuse. Its good to look at the different 'wheel' because there are different behaviours. But its just an enlightening look into the different tactics that they use and how its all about one, underlying thing - control. And control with a total indifference for our feelings.

If tearing us down, calling us horrible names, belittling nice things we do for them, insulting our appearance, isolating us from our friends hurts us immensely, but gives them control, they will do it.

Before I went to therapy I was in an extremely emotionally abusive relationship.
Just for example, this is definitely not the whole list, but some examples of the abuse were
Financial/economic control - buying large 'joint' purchases - things I didn't want - and making me pay half, buying things 'together' but only putting his name on it, trying to get me to spend more on things (I am frugal and he was massively in debt) to fit in with his expensive tastes, also I suspect he would have just quit his job and mooched off me if I hadn't fled earlier - hehe
Emotional abuse - name calling, blaming, shouting at me, running me down, criticizing me
Taking advantage of 'traditional roles' - I had a full time, demanding job, but he made me do all the cooking and cleaning, he mooched around and only worked part time (for a man, this could be the abusive female partner refusing to pay for things or work)
He also cheated... screamed at me, oh yeah, and pushed me, threw a bag and pointed a knife at me (it's shocking even writing this - the physical stuff was the breaking point for me, I fled when he wasn't there - but the emotional abuse was what I'd been so accustomed to from childhood - I just committed 100% to therapy and didn't date for a year after that  and it changed my life).

There's plenty more, but you get the point! He was a total abuser, but I left and went through the healing process, I'm still healing now, I plan on healing my whole life. But now my relationships are much happier and healthier!

QuoteSadly I too was in an emotionally abusive marriage for a long time....too long. My wife said to me more than once, I am going to hit myself in the head with this frying pan, call the police and tell them you did it.
That is horrendous!!!

I'm so glad that you are healing...
The thing is by breaking away from your latest abusive relationship and healing you are breaking away from abuse in general.

Oh, one thing that really helped me was this amazing book:
Quotehttps://www.amazon.com.au/Children-Self-Absorbed-Grown-Ups-Getting-Narcissistic-ebook/dp/B07YWF881J
its got amazing exercises, I did these and oh my goodness, they helped SO much.

I also meditated at the same time, (I don't know - maybe you are put off meditation after being forced to do it by your ex - lol).

This book was amazing for helping me open my eyes and heal from the roots of why I kept ending up with abusers - because of the abuse I endured as a child.

Also going to therapy once a week helped a lot too.

Anyway, no pressure but that is a book that really helped me too :)

I think you are going to do so well.

And yes, I think people raised to be 'pleasers or caretakers, codependent' are also compassionate, so for me, thinking of someone else being abused in the same way makes me think 'noooooooo!!!!', anyway, we deserve better, so good on you, wishing for the best for you!!!!

JollyJazz

P.S. Here it is - from the amazing glossary on this site:
Quotehttps://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/abuse-amnesia
Abuse amnesia!
I found that book - 'children of the self absorbed' plus meditating REALLY helped me personally with my abuse amnesia!!!

Anyway, hope you are feeling a bit better today :)

foggydude

Ty once again for the continued support.

Another question please.

I read that codependents over give, people please (rescue/fix), then we resent this (persecute), then we become  angry( victim).

Is this whole thing my fault for doing so? I resonate with this as 3 therapists have mentioned part of this cycle to me.

Also, since I agreed to vegetarianism, no drinking or smoking from the very 1st date, am I just bargaining with myself and justifying her behavior and treatment of me when I announced I did not want to leave out meat or alcohol?

She did have some leeway after for 1 -2 drinks a few tomes a year. She said she couldn't believe she was agreeing to this because she was going against her beliefs and that she NEVER wanted this in her life.

Eventually it went it once a month. However, she could never hangout with my friends and I because I saw them so infrequently that when we got together, I was going to have a few drinks with them. She sais she couldnt be around me drinking. That we could hang w my friends and they could drink but not me. Thats when I said, well, I guess you wont be hanging w me and my friends. (None of which are alcoholics).

Also , strangely, I was drinking w them kne day and my ex wanted to spend the night together still.

Thia shocked me because I thought she didnt want to be around me when I was drinking.

One important thing for me was to return to Alaska with my son to go fishing. She understood during s negotiation how important it was to me. She agreed. She also wanted to attend. I said we sre going to be catching a lot of fish, eating them and bringing them home. She still wanted to go. Strange.

Why would she want to watch me , in her words , kill souls and eat fish out of a polluted ocean

Not trying to offend anyone as I know you and others sre vegans. I respect you for that.

Ty once again for your continued, incredibly important feedback.
things are not good or bad, they just are....Buddha

my religion is simple, my religion is kindness
be kind whenever possible, it is always possible

The Dalai Lama

JollyJazz

QuoteI read that codependents over give, people please (rescue/fix), then we resent this (persecute), then we become  angry( victim).

Is this whole thing my fault for doing so?

I definitely don't think it's your fault! We learned certain behaviour as a survival pattern, it's like a dance, but you are definitely not to blame for abuse, noone is. Only the abuser is to blame.

Definitely no offence with the eating etc. I really do think her criticising your eating and insisting on coming on your fishing trip was about control. I can't imagine wanting to control someone like that. So not healthy!!

No probs re: support! I really feel for you as I know how incredibly painful it is to be emotionally abused by someone you loved, beyond painful.

But you'll get thru - you're doing an awesome job 😎

foggydude

#29
Tx. Just woke in a sweaty panic at the thought of her w another man and the reality of us not being together.

How stupid of me to deny what was happening and how shocking that I had to take such drastic steps.

I mean yes she attacked me but we were slated for therapy the next day. I could've just waited to address it then but it was too powerful a statement to ignore.

She was shocked I was able to break away and not respond. Her therapist predicted id reach out within 4 days too apparently. I was also surprised her therapist (ours as well) didn't text or call me.

They have a long standing relationship. I felt disadvantaged coming into session with them. My side was taken many times but they knew things I did not. Probably that a BPD diagnosis had occurred. It was opaque to me!!!!

So I now lay in bed, devastated near 4 months after standing up for myself. To defend what was left of my honor instead of just keeping cool and stating I needed space. To leave the relationship.

This panic really sux. Even knowing there is something else out there. That God has a different plan.

You are a strong woman with what uve been thru. You have 0 regret for leaving. I have much regret for not handling this better. Not sure why this is.

I've been one to be able to look, envision and feel my future through meditation and consciousness however, I am not able to. You are correct.....i have not been meditating lately. Mostly because there is a part of me that is trying to manifest her back to me. To envision am feel it. This is the only way to manifest imo. You have to see it and feel it.

I am so conflicted when I do that. I feel I am condemning ber and praising her at thr same time knowing full well she abused me. I feel like I am doing such a disservice to me. Creating an ultimately damaging dishonoring of my own self. Walking through an emotional mine field in my own head.

I am so ambivalent about this decision I made to leave the relationship near 4 months ago. How absurd.
things are not good or bad, they just are....Buddha

my religion is simple, my religion is kindness
be kind whenever possible, it is always possible

The Dalai Lama

foggydude

Even tho I blocked my ex, got a call and an email today. I did nit reach out in her birthday recently either.

I did Not take the call or read said email but i suspect that she wants this laptop still. Or is this just to see if I react? If her power is will intact?

She was creative as she mustve realized I blocked her email as she copied rhe subject into a new email addy as I have a few and didnt block that one.

I was surprised my phone rang cuz I blocked that too but she calls from a restricted #. Maybe this is why it only rang 2x.

Any input is appreciated. I really do want us to work it out bur I won't unless I hear what I need which is so far from her vocab it would be like winning rhe lottery

Even tho I am doing better and I have a great life, ive not secured a better mental future or present yet to see the disparity I need to survive and thrive
things are not good or bad, they just are....Buddha

my religion is simple, my religion is kindness
be kind whenever possible, it is always possible

The Dalai Lama