Covert narcissists

[Pepin]

I have a few observations about covert narcissists. 

I've just realized that the ones in my life all seem to behave similar to each other.  They all won't initiate conversation or further conversation unless they are asked specific questions that don't involve a yes or no answer. 

The other thing I noticed is that they can be masters at long term forms of silent treatment.  They just withdraw silently seething because you don't agree with them.  And, if you are in their presence, they hardly acknowledge your existence, cut you off when you are speaking with a completely different conversation or insert back handed comments all executed in a way that others just don't see.

These are patterns I cannot unsee and they have happened enough times now that I finally understand the difference between them and the more overt narcissists.  Does anyone else see this too?

[JustKeepTrying]

"That others don't see"

That phrase strikes a chord in me.  There are times when I feel alone when I see it - it's crazy-making.

As for the covert narc, I couldn't say.  But I did see this in my OCPDxh.  That silent treatment would get to me every time.  Truly bothered me and I would do anything to end it.  Ugh.

I am seeing these behaviors in my DDs.  Not sure if its fleas, behaviors they adapted to adjust to their father's abuse, or if they just have some inherited PD traits.  Who knows?  But it is hard to unsee it right?

[Cascade]

Yes, I see these traits in my husband. I don't think I've had a deep conversation with him for many years. I've experienced many silent treatments over the years as well.

[Sheppane]

Yes I see these too. Also a certain smug ness / superiority which is not necessarily as outwardly displayed as in the overt. So a lot of put downs of others especially at work if someone else gets promoted ie it really should have been them because they are way smarter. A lot of envy of others coming out of a quiet sense of entitlement. Lots of passive aggressive behaviour if they don't like what you are doing. Very little direct conversation,  controlling in conversation to keep you on your toes. I also notice regular conversation often involves me being asked lots and lots of questions I think it is to make me feel off balance/ on defence I don't know why. And what I find very confusing is a lot of the time very pleasant and none of this obvious. It's like it simmers at the root the whole time. But if you defend yourself / strongly disagree with something which they perceive as all about them ( even if it isn't) then all the PA gaslighring etc comes out .

[Jsinjin]

I see a lot of these behaviors as just a pattern of who "they" are.   What I mean is my uOCPDw behaves this way not out of a specific plan or even with any intent of causing harm, she is just wired this way.   There isn't any changing it and her behavior is the classic glass half full and in actuality, the glass is half full and at any moment someone is trying to steal her glass and it's a family heirloom.   The silent treatment is because "I just didn't have anything to say to you and I didn't want you to think that I might be interested in having a conversation with you so I don't want to talk"    the backhanded comments seem to be a way to control the environment to make sure no one is getting something that they might not have deserved.  It's like a mouse living in a cat shelter; they see bad things everywhere.

[Dandelion]

I think my mother - probably narcissist - is quite balanced.  Until she's not.  Then its madness and rage, off the scale.  I read somewhere that narcissists can be fine - AS LONG AS the subject matter has no emotional significance for them.   As soon as there is a prospect of narcissistic injury - off they go into Crazy Badlands.

This had always been very confusing to me.  As you could have a reasonable conversation with my mother 80% of the time.  However, the trigger for narcissistic rage or contempt was very unpredictable.  I think she was probably more prone to the 'silent treatment' as you say.  For her the 'silent treatment' was the communication that (a) I was wrong (b) I was bad (c) she didn't give a shit about me anyway (contempt).

She was definitely not the "grandiose" type.  But sometimes I find the descriptions of "covert" don't fit quite either: she wasn't the "martyr" type either, doing  "good works" etc.  She would never really understand anyone doing anything that wasn't in their own self-interest and just for the benefit of others e.g. volunteering or anything like that.  Though she could be pleasant and gushing when it suited her

[Cat of the Canals]

...cut you off when you are speaking with a completely different conversation or insert back handed comments all executed in a way that others just don't see.

These are patterns I cannot unsee and they have happened enough times now that I finally understand the difference between them and the more overt narcissists.  Does anyone else see this too?

I suspect the overt/covert thing is probably a spectrum, and most narcissists fall somewhere in the middle versus being all the way at one end or the other. At least, all the narcissists I know personally have a blend of the two sides. unPD mil is probably a bit more on the covert side, and she absolutely can not tolerate a conversation happening in her presence that she isn't a part of. She will literally start shouting over everyone else, trying to change the topic if she's bored with what's being said. My husband said she also routinely cuts him off mid-sentence when they're on the phone to tell some completely unrelated story.

We've joked before that she would be perfectly happy with some cardboard cut-outs of us that she could just talk at all day long. Maybe we could wire a speaker to throw in a "yeah" or "uh-huh" every few minutes. Otherwise, she has no interest in what others have to say.

[losingmyself]

This is what I live with, all the time. The passive aggressive snide comments, put downs, you all know what it's like.
I always feel like he thinks that the better/worse another person looks, the better/worse he looks. This is actually a thing I have heard him say multiple times. Everything is about him.
Once, my DS said that he liked his F's tv. That meant to my H that he was saying that our tv was crap. And he got very agitated, as if he had really been insulted. Poor DS was kind of in shock. Is it jealousy? Or that no one can be better than, or equal to him?
So, about H's true personality, he has everyone in my FOO fooled, they all think he's the cat's pajamas. I want so bad to tell someone, but I don't even know how to begin. They will believe me, I have no worry about that, but I am concerned that they will treat him differently after they know, and he'll realize it. I don't know.......is that a bad thing?
He fits the covert narcissist almost to a T.
Cat of the Canals, you're right, I think it's all a spectrum, but it is almost creepy how they so often say the same things and act the same way.
Pepin, you hit on something I have noticed, as well. When FIL comes to visit us, I find myself 'leading' the conversation, because otherwise we'll sit there in silence, H won't speak much. I love listening to him on the phone with some one because there must be so many long awkward pauses. I have kind of stopped talking so much because I figure if that's how they want to visit, ok.

[Pepin]

Yes I see these too. Also a certain smug ness / superiority which is not necessarily as outwardly displayed as in the overt. So a lot of put downs of others especially at work if someone else gets promoted ie it really should have been them because they are way smarter. A lot of envy of others coming out of a quiet sense of entitlement. Lots of passive aggressive behaviour if they don't like what you are doing. Very little direct conversation,  controlling in conversation to keep you on your toes. I also notice regular conversation often involves me being asked lots and lots of questions I think it is to make me feel off balance/ on defence I don't know why. And what I find very confusing is a lot of the time very pleasant and none of this obvious. It's like it simmers at the root the whole time. But if you defend yourself / strongly disagree with something which they perceive as all about them ( even if it isn't) then all the PA gaslighring etc comes out .

Yes!  The smugness, superiority, passive aggressiveness and gaslighting.  I hate the stupid silent treatment even when we are all sitting at the same table together.  And I also see the silent treatment within a group text I am part of.  They make no effort to comment, support or share.  It is completely immature to me and they think they go unnoticed.  I just want to ask: Why do you behave like this?

[Pepin]

I think my mother - probably narcissist - is quite balanced.  Until she's not.  Then its madness and rage, off the scale.  I read somewhere that narcissists can be fine - AS LONG AS the subject matter has no emotional significance for them.   As soon as there is a prospect of narcissistic injury - off they go into Crazy Badlands.

This had always been very confusing to me.  As you could have a reasonable conversation with my mother 80% of the time.  However, the trigger for narcissistic rage or contempt was very unpredictable.  I think she was probably more prone to the 'silent treatment' as you say.  For her the 'silent treatment' was the communication that (a) I was wrong (b) I was bad (c) she didn't give a shit about me anyway (contempt).

She was definitely not the "grandiose" type.  But sometimes I find the descriptions of "covert" don't fit quite either: she wasn't the "martyr" type either, doing  "good works" etc.  She would never really understand anyone doing anything that wasn't in their own self-interest and just for the benefit of others e.g. volunteering or anything like that.  Though she could be pleasant and gushing when it suited her

These are interesting thoughts about the silent treatment: wrong, bad and contempt for.  I experienced this a lot with NF, the raging narcissist.  He made it known how he felt loud and clear.  With coverts, this is done in a very quiet and seething manner.  With NF, he would physically remove himself from the same room I was in and go somewhere else and close or slam the door.  With the coverts I am dealing with, they are present and they work around you or they work through other people to make you feel isolated. 

As for the martyr complex...the coverts I know do pretty much ZERO volunteering or giving back to their community.  They are mainly quiet and keep to themselves.  But they thrive off of being a martyr within their own tribe, complaining about their stuff and taking no action.  They suffer just for the sake of suffering because it garners attention - and they never learn from past suffering.  It is like they just keep building on it.  Or they continue to share things that probably others really don't need to know but they do it for attention and admiration.  They aren't proud to have achieved something difficult; they are proud to share it because it promotes the height of the pedestal they perch on.     

[JustKeepTrying]

This has helped clear some thoughts.  My OCPDxh played the martyr.  All the time.  The long-suffering husband overwhelmed at work he has to keep going to in order to keep the insurance for his sick wife - me.  Or his kids.  Anytime he could martyr - he would.  And I fell for it year after year.  My poor poor overworked husband.

And then to friends, neighbors, and his boss - his poor wife sick with cancer or his kids with whatever - bought him lots of grace and sympathy.  Now that I walked out on him he is using those same tactics with his daughters.  And they are buying it.

But volunteering was only done when a superior would see it - like the company volunteer day kind of thing.  Whenever I volunteered, I would get the feeling that he was so put upon.  I stopped it because the grief I would get at home wasn't worth it. 

The silent treatment was his favorite form of punishment.  He would just turn away or leave - no words and silence for sometimes days.

I never thought of it as covert.  A favorite phrase of his is "be like the wind."  Drift through life and no one notices.  He hated whenever I would raise my hand or put myself in any way in the limelight.  My personal feeling is that covert means he can get away with it.  If he drifts like the wind, no one will notice how strange he really is.

[Pepin]

A favorite phrase of his is "be like the wind."  Drift through life and no one notices.  He hated whenever I would raise my hand or put myself in any way in the limelight.  My personal feeling is that covert means he can get away with it.  If he drifts like the wind, no one will notice how strange he really is.

Yes, martyr and silent treatment.  Ugh.

"be like the wind" hits hard.  Not going to lie.  You make an absolutely brilliant point with this about their being covert that they follow through to a T.  They are really strange!  It is a complete act that they put on to disguise themselves.  They don't want the attention but secretly can't get enough of it.  And isn't that strange when you think about it?  The ones I know are very low key but quite cunning.  One uses "waifery" (a word I just made up) to thrive.  The other one thrives on subtle back handed comments to deflect attention onto themselves without really wanting the attention.  Strange way to behave....and they get away with it with the biggest devious smile. 

[ploughthrough2021]

Very interesting forum.  I am just learning about covert vs overt narcissim.  My wife is definitely in the overt spectrum.  So much so that I can see the kids roll over their eyes over some of the things she says... I just let them fly over my head these days.

[Lauren17]

There are so many points in this thread that I don't know where to start.
The holding on to grudges. I remember commenting on that early on. "How can you still be mad about that? It happened 3 days ago!" Little did I know.
Yes, smug superiority.
Yes, silent treatment. Also long silences. uBPDh will sometimes go days without saying more than hello to me.
When he's forced to interact with people, say an aunt comes to visit, he does the peppering with questions thing. He's a master at answering a question with a question. And he can pretend interest and ask questions on any topic. I think it's an avoidance technique. Keeps him from having to share.
I agreed that there's a spectrum here. And mine is solidly on the covert side.
I found that Debbie Mizra's list of what it feels like to be living with a covert passive aggressive narc could have been written by me.
One final thought is that he knows he does all this. He once told me in very proud tone that he doesn't shout when he gets angry. He has ... other ways... of showing his anger.

[Free2Bme]

  ....true, where to begin.

Lauren17, sounds like you are describing my updxh.  The silent treatments were strange sometimes lasting a very long time to a point that I could not differentiate where one ended and another began, or why.  It was like he wanted me to both suffer, and simultaneously draw him out as to why he was so angry. 

I noticed that in my H's NPD playbook of silent treatment rules , that just because I was getting silent Tx didn't mean he could not break the silent Tx in order to be snide, mean, or launch into another rage.   

He once told me after a huge painful (abusive) argument, "Free2Bme, all I have to do is wait a week and you will come around wanting connection".  He knew I would eventually drop trying to resolve the issue if he obstructed resolution long enough = me using peace-faking to save my sanity.  In his twisted thinking he was "winning".......ugh!