Nipping hording in the bud

[SparkStillLit]

I know he'll go berzerk, but as he will in any case, what about a shed for his shizz? And don't offer an option of no shed. You know how you handle a little kid that, say for example needs to put their shoes on: "Do you want to wear your hiking boots or your cowboy boots today?" But notice there's no option of not putting on your shoes.
"The inventory is piling up in the common areas. We can either find a place for it in your room, or purchase a shed for the overflow."
Yessss, the excrement will hit the air moving device, but it will anyway. At this point you become a broken record and just keep offering those choices, no matter what he deflects with. But the plants! We are talking about inventory. But the couch!! We are talking about inventory. Do you want a shed, or is there room in your bedroom? But the cooking utensils!!!! We are discussing inventory. How about one of those nice sheds frome Home Depot? BUT THE CARPET!!!!!!!!! We are talking about inventory. Can you make some space in your room?

[square]

BUT THE CARPET lol.

I feel like spending money for a shed would be a financial red line.

The more I think about this, the more I realize I'm playing with fire here. I'd explain but I think it's better I didn't. But the real issue isn't what it looks like.

[Poison Ivy]

I hope I'm wrong, but it seems as though your H knows very well how much you are bothered by the clutter and that his goal is to see how much control he can exert over you and your shared space and the relationship. I'm sorry you're in this very difficult situation.

[square]

He is not aware at all. The issue really has zero to do with me.

[Jolie40]

I feel like spending money for a shed would be a financial red line.

I mentioned shed as my husband has one on order
he's getting a smaller one, no windows so it's $3200

apparently, husband has been saving money for it as he paid cash
he didn't tell me 'til last minute he was ordering one


could be a solution for you both
also, he probably could deduct it from taxes if used only for his business stuff

[Poison Ivy]

I hope that your living situation improves, Square.

[square]

Thanks, PI. You are so kind.

[Poison Ivy]

I think you are very kind and patient, Square. Much more than I am on both counts.

[square]

Haha, I should have booted his ass long since, I know 

Not sure what percentage kindness is the reason I haven't. Some, not all.

[Hepatica]

Grew up with a Nfather whose hoarding began when I was a teen. He had this idea to collect "memorabilia" to open an antique shop after he retired and sell the stuff - back in the 80's. That shop never happened. But his compulsion to collect more for "his shop" continued. First it filled up the basement. It drove my Mom crazy she had to walk thru a narrow path to the laundry room. But it was the basement, so fairly out of sight. As they grew older the condition worsened. The stuff began to move into the upper parts of the house. My mother got a large inheritance from a rich uncle and she built my father a large garage type building, with the stipulation that he would put his stuff there. (She is a very house proud woman and this was one of the worst behaviours my father could have done to her, meaning create mayhem in her home.) He filled up the garage and continued to keep all of the stuff inside their house. The fighting between them became absolutely horrendous. They stay together though.

I, sadly, do not have a lot of hope for hoarding behaviour. It is compulsive. It gets worse. It is narcissistic. My father had no empathy for my mother in this. He continued on filling the house up no matter how much she screamed. He cannot care for another person in regards to his compulsions.

If I could say to my mother anything, I would have said, "move." Maybe if she'd had her own apartment and they stayed married, she could be clean and tidy and my father could do whatever he wants. But her staying with him has meant she had to forego her self-care, her sense of pride in her home, her wishes on all accounts.

In the end I think it will be about self-care. When you hit that line in the sand where his behaviour crosses your right to peace and cleanliness and a sense of what you deserve in the home you live in, if that line is crossed and you know you love yourself enough that you do not deserve to be made invisible by somoene else who overrides your boundaries, you will make the decision you need to live better.

The plants thing is a dodge. My father did it to my mother too. He found ways to dismiss her reasonable observations and wishes. He is an entitled and sneaky, sinister kind of man. When my mother was in hospital for six months, and nearly died twice, he did not clean the upstairs of the house, knowing it would be dangerous her for walk in that kind of chaos when she got home. That was not love. And very very hard for me to forgive him for.

[Poison Ivy]

Square, thank you for the reminder that for people with personality disorders, most of the negative behaviors have to do with the PD person, not with anything that anyone else is doing. I'm having personal experience with this again this week. My ex-husband eventually called and let our daughter know that he would be coming here (to my, formerly our, house) to see her before she leaves. I've had the opportunity to see up close many of the behaviors that I hated while we were married, and I see that this is just how he is. (BTW, he has hoarding tendencies, and he admitted that they continue, at his home (formerly his parents' house).)

[square]

I said I'd update if there were any developments, noting it would be a long time.

He moved the clutter to his room 

Since starting this thread, the clutter expanded to at least twice the size. It lined the wall behind the dining room table. You could get to the chairs to sit, but barely. I hated it.

I had expressed my feelings once, as I had already described, and he shut me down.

Months later (and months before now) I had gently asked if he had any plans for the boxes. He got defensive but didn't attack. So he knew.

Finally, I recently set up a cleaning service to come in ($$$, sigh). I mentioned I needed just a couple of things from him to prepare - move a heavy thing, deal with the trash, and deal with some easy crap of his (pile of clean laundry on table, etc.) On his own he mentioned The Pile, assuming I included that in my requests. I said it would be nice but didn't seem realistic, it was a big job and the company was coming in soon.

Lol, he reacted like it was a challenge.

I honestly did not think it would be done, but he kept mentioning it. I told him it would be great if it was done by end of year. I felt that was both soothing and encouraging him to work on it in a realistic timeframe, but it was like he heard me saying he couldn't do it. Wtf?

Two days before the company was coming (first thing in the morning) no progress was made. I accepted that.

The night before, he went into a whirlwind. And he moved it all! DD was ecstatic, walking back and forth in the empty area.

Large amounts of the house looks nice right now. I am looking forward to DD driving in spring so I can take stuff to Goodwill. There's no clutter in open spaces anymore but closets and stuff are backlogged because I can't get anything out of the house. I can't wait!

[Poison Ivy]

Hurray!

[1footouttadefog]

Even having part of it cleared and tidy must be a super relief.  At least anybody who see will know someone at least tries and how nice that you and your DD get to enjoy a nicer space. 

The flip side is that it took the fact that stranger was coming to make it matter.

Sigh.

[square]

He isn't motivated by his image, does not care one whit. He's a hermit. He hates the world and figures the world hates him and that's just fine with him. Other than a normal amount of minimal politeness to store clerks he has no mask.

I think there was a confluence of events. On some level he knew the pile sucked, even if he wasn't able to admit it. I found that as much as he doesn't seem to see clutter and uncleanliness, he does still enjoy it being clean, so I think he did want to get the most out of the opportunity of the crew coming in.

And finally, while he is in his dark phase of the year, he did come up a bit from rock bottom somehow - not sure how. He wants to succeed at the business, though he is really physically/mentally unable. But he used the deadline as motivation to get some of his inventory sorted, and he has been making some progress in his work.

[1footouttadefog]

Hopefully the money being invested in the housekeeping will reap more such progress on his part. 

I am reminded of home homeopathy concept of treat in my like with like.  Where a small bit of adding more to the problem causes the body to find a new equalibrium.

[square]

You guys were right and I was wrong about something.

He was spending money on the inventory that he didn't have. He ran up debt.

I am posting this to hold myself accountable. Because I find myself burying this and not facing it.

He confessed it to me, as opposed to me finding it out.

I did observe in myself that I do not feel I am allowed to have any feelings about it. I can't be upset, demand answers, demand he account for himself, can't be disappionted, can't be nervous. I have to be supportive.

When I cone close to betraying any emotion I see he will short circuit and break apart.

If I let him down, his disappointment in me would motivate me even harder to fix it.

If he lets me down, I think he would just break and be unable to cope.

I can't seem to face this even just in my head. I ignore it. But it's a problem. We are going to have to pay a large debt. We are in trouble. This affects me and also our DD.

This hurts to post but I'm doing it.

[Poison Ivy]

I'm sorry, square. This situation (like many others with people with PDs) is a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[square]

PI, thank you. I think you understand. You were braver than me but I am thinking this is going to be the point where H and I are going to drown together, or I'll have to let go.

I do not believe PD is what caused the debt, I think brain damage. PD is sort of in the way but I think if he had no PD it would not help. He seems unplugged from reality. There is this blank look in his eyes.

I think I have a one year deadline to make some sort of move. I'm scared.

[Cat of the Canals]

I don't know if this will help you or not, square, but this video gave me a new perspective on fear and anxiety: https://youtu.be/6n8i7ua0mSw