Nipping hording in the bud

[square]

I'm not sure if there's anything I can do, but maybe someone has an idea I haven't thought of.

I'm not sure H is a true horder but he sure is a slob. He sells a product online and until a few months ago kept his inventory in his room. He keeps buying more inventory though his business is not growing. He doesn't really have any more room in his room, so he has started leaving boxes of inventory around the house. There is a small but growing pile in the corner of the dining room, and it's not going anywhere. It's probably not even being listed. He enjoys buying inventory more than listing it.

Sometimes I try to clean up this dump, and sometimes I have stuck his crap in his room. This enrages him. He says it's passive aggressive. He says he doesn't have room in his room. He says it's his house too.

I pointed out that I keep my crap in my room. He said I have crap everywhere. I challenged him to give examples. He named... THE HOUSEPLANTS. Apparently the plants in the living room are my personal crap.

Anyway, the only choices I can see are to just deal with it or to make it a hill to die on and fight fight fight. Or, of course, divorce. Any feedback on the first two options?

[Cat of the Canals]

Do you think he'd be willing to compromise: you'll keep your houseplants in your room if he keeps his boxes in his room? And perhaps the suggestion that if his inventory outgrows that space, that he'll need to find somewhere else to store it than the "public" areas of the house?

[square]

That is Option B, ie fight. So you think it's worth fighting the battle?

He is not going to calmly say, hey, that's fair enough. I'm willing to get a plant light and move the plants but he doesn't care, they were just a weapon. I will offer, though, if I decide to fight.

It's hard to know which hills to die on. They all cost so damn much.

I really value having a home I feel comfortable in, but I don't have that anyway. He is such a slob and I don't have the energy to clean up after him. On a few rare occasions I've decided to just do it but I find quickly that I just don't have the strength.

When I stay with my (non) mom, it hurts how easy it is. I do the dishes and wipe the counters. Otherwise everything just stays right. Sweep the floors here and there, but it's always neat and pleasant without hardly any effort. Garbage isn't left everywhere, screwdrivers and boxes aren't just abandoned after sn item is put together, if a knife is used to spread peanut butter it goes in the sink instead of being left to stick to the counter. If someone has a sticky hand it gets washed/wiped instead of being used to open the fridge door and spread sticky to everyone until I give in and wipe it off.

It's so. Freaking. Easy.

[Cat of the Canals]

I don't think I can fairly say whether it's worth it or not. If the plant comment wasn't genuine and was only meant as a gotcha/distraction from what you were discussing (i.e. his boxes encroaching), then offering this compromise seems pretty pointless. And it doesn't sound like it solves the general problem of his leaving messes around.

I've been listening to the Beyond Bitchy podcast, which is about setting and maintaining healthy boundaries. I think she'd suggest something like, "I'm growing concerned with the way your inventory is starting to pile up around the house. I feel anxious seeing this stuff in the shared spaces of the house, and I would like to discuss the idea of keeping these items in your room. Is that something you'd be willing to do?" You'll either get a yes (yay!), a suggestion of compromise (still good since communication is open), or a no (which often tells you something about the relationship).

Of course, the problem with PDs is we can generally figure we're going to get a NO. But often won't even be that direct. They do what your husband did, and turn it around so that now you're discussing the houseplants. If he WANTS to discuss the houseplants at some other time, that's fine. But you're talking about the boxes!

[1footouttadefog]

I would dislike the disorder and clutter.  However I personally would be more uptight about the fact that he is buyi g inventory and not even listing it.

This is a sign of runaway spending that can be devastating if left unchecked.

[square]

Yeah, Cat, I have zero reason to believe he is in the slightest bothered by the plants. He just deflected back onto me then scrambled to buttress that with anything he could. I think he may have even suggested that the sofa in the living room was an example of "my crap." The sofa. The only sofa. That he sits on.

So you suggest trying to have an adult conversation. A very reasonable plan. I just have to decide if I have the guts. I have very little OG. I have a ton of F. If it were one fight I'd go for it. But I'll have to keep fighting.

1foot, I hear ya. The inventory is not very expensive. The purchases are delusional but made from his biz account. Instead of taking income from the biz he spends the tiny proceeds on this stuff. Whatever. It's delusional but it's his stuff, not mine.

[Cat of the Canals]

Can you articulate where the fear is coming from? Is it fear of confrontation in general? Fear of receiving an angry response? Fear that he'll just simply say no or ignore the request?

[square]

Fear of anger, fear of PD attack tactics.

Fear of the stress response in my body, which is tired of having to entertain so much stress.

[Jolie40]

it does cause stress living in a cluttered house

how about saying "it's causing me stress & thus affecting my health"
continue with "if I can't relax in the house, I need a she shed!"

he probably won't want to spend $5,000 for a she shed
"I'm going to get one if you don't clean up!"

[square]

I'm not going to resolve this with reason and without stress. I can certainly say, hey, can we figure out what's fair with this stuff? He will feel angry about it and tell me I'm not perfect either, I leave crap everywhere, he lives here too, I'm so damn picky and critical and constantly on his case about every little thing, he does everything and I sit there and do nothing, ever, he hates me, I'm the worst wife in the world, blah blah.

There aren't magic words from me that will avoid it. He will feel criticized and he will fight to the death.

Is it worth it?

[Poison Ivy]

Square, as I read your posts, I think that there are at least two issues, and the potential hoarding is not the most significant. The one that seems most serious to me is that you're afraid (for valid reasons) to talk to your husband about the "stuff" issue. If you can't talk about basic household matters such as "stuff," it is unlikely that talking about even thornier issues is possible.

Do you want to stay in this relationship? If so, having a living space that meets your needs is important. Being able to talk about the living space is important, too.

[Cat of the Canals]

Fear of anger, fear of PD attack tactics.

Fear of the stress response in my body, which is tired of having to entertain so much stress.

I agree with PoisonIvy that this sounds bigger than just the issue about clutter. If a reasonable adult conversation can't be had, and if the only outcome of you making a simple request is going to be the type of emotional abuse you described, it's understandable (and I'd go so far as to say preferable) that you would avoid it. No one wants to be screamed at and put down like that.

Like I mentioned before, so much advice that seems perfectly fine for non-PDs just doesn't work with PDs. In some cases, it actually makes it worse. It's why so much of the advice here is about boundaries being for YOU and not for THEM. You ultimately can't control his behavior, and it doesn't sound like he's the compromising type.

If I were in your position - explicitly the one where a simple request is met with "I hate you" and "you are the worst wife in the world" type comments - I'd be considering option 3. I know that's easy for me to say because I'm NOT in your position, and these things are always ten times more complicated than they seem. I'm really sorry you're in this position.

[square]

Well, sure, the issue is PD and not clutter or I wouldn't be here. Many of us are looking to figure out how to manage a PD we are not divorced from or NC with.

Boundaries are about me, not him. I wasn't sure if there was something I overlooked. And I am trying to decide if I'm willing to put in the effort to lay a boundary, which would include "being willing to talk to him and risk confrontation," "being willing to continue to address future clutter in some way as it comes up, thereby inviting further confrontation," etc.

As far as divorcing over this, well, I'm not going to. I may divorce but not over this. Everyone on this site would be divorced and completely NC if the standard was that the PDs in our lives do not exhibit PD behavior.

I won't necessarily be told "I hate you" etc. but yeah, I'm going to get a PD response. That's just my reality, and the reality of most here. I'm surprised it's surprising.

[Poison Ivy]

If it were me, I would risk the anger. I doubt you'll be able to nip the hoarding in the bud, but I think it would be worth trying.

[Cat of the Canals]

As far as divorcing over this, well, I'm not going to. I may divorce but not over this. Everyone on this site would be divorced and completely NC if the standard was that the PDs in our lives do not exhibit PD behavior.

I won't necessarily be told "I hate you" etc. but yeah, I'm going to get a PD response. That's just my reality, and the reality of most here. I'm surprised it's surprising.

I hope I didn't offend you and apologize if my comment crossed a line. I only brought up divorce because you mentioned it in the original post, but I realize now it was probably more of a joke. I tend to take things kind of literally, so that's on me.

[Andeza]

Hoarding... for me, if I were in a relationship with a pwPD, that would be my hill. Or one of them. But that's me.

I don't know if you have children, but they tend to have a plethora of reasons and excuses for doing what they're doing. "Don't pull the cat's tail" "I was just going to (insert some version of reality where they can get away with it)" "that does not make pulling the cat's tail okay. Don't do it."

Conversations with pwPDs tend to go off on those tangents as well, just like they're four years old and trying to blame anything but themselves. Hence the innocent houseplants getting dragged in.

The broken record technique, should you decide to address it, will be your friend.

[square]

Cat, no worries, not offended at all! I wasn't joking about divorce, just saying I'm not there (yet?), so wondering between addressing it and just adding it to my growing pile of unmet needs/wants.

I've got a few votes to address it. I'll update if I do.

It might be a while, though.

It's not often that I wake up and say, hey, it's calm today, I think I might like to stir the hornet's nest.

It's usually when he's stomping around anyway and I feel like I've got nothing to lose.

[Cat of the Canals]

It's not often that I wake up and say, hey, it's calm today, I think I might like to stir the hornet's nest.

Totally understandable. I rarely try to set "out loud" boundaries with PDmom or PDmil. Any request will be denied, ignored, or starts more drama than it's worth. It's easier to keep my mouth shut and avoid them. (But frustrating.) At least I have the benefit of being LC. I imagine it's infinitely more frustrating when you share a home.

[JustKeepTrying]

square,

my OCPDxh was a hoarder.  He couldn't pitch anything.  Our basement was full of old boxes, wrapping paper, box after box of receipts and old bills, just about anything and everything.  We added a storage area for old appliance boxes.  When we went through I begged him to pitch the boxes of the appliance we didn't have anymore - he couldn't

It got so bad he would go through our garbage to see if there was anything important that was thrown away.  One time he became so upset becasue my DD had pitched some old holey socks.

I tried to set a boundary  on this.  What became our compromise - unspoken - was the main living room/tv room was off-limits.  That's about all I could do to keep it under control.  Our dining table was a perpetual clutter fest and if I cleaned it - it would trigger the most insane fits.

I found that I was exhausted with the weird and strange back and forth fight over junk.  I am on my own now and my home is fairly clutter-free.  Of course, it's small and my garage is heaped with crap from the house we are trying to sell - but overall I am so much more at peace with the lack of clutter.  I have places that no longer trigger me - you know when you enter the house and you are hit with that frustration, guilt, and anger swirl over not having any control over your own space.

I am not encouraging divorce.  There is another place on this forum if you want to talk it through.  You asked for help on setting boundaries on the hoarding.

First I think that as mentioned above, consider the financial side of this and make sure you are OK there.

Second, there will be a moment where he will be normal.  You will know it and can talk to him at that time.  Until then, just move the boxes to out of sight places.  When he mentions it, say you thought he would prefer the mess to be less obtrusive.  Put it on him.

Third, keep your plants.  that is not the issue at all.  Just something he said to get you going.

I hope this thread helps and we got your back in here.

[square]

That's true, he does have moments of clarity. Not enough, but still, he has them.

I'm a wimp

He had three really good months and then he started unravelling again.

I feel like I was hanging by my fingers off a cliff, then a ledge opened up. I relaxed my arms after a while, just a bit - still on this cliff after all, you see, but the ledge! - and they turned into spaghetti.

And now the ledge is crumbling again and I've got my hands up again but now that I had a little break, it's even harder. The ledge isn't even totally gone, but I'm so tired.

Stress is something I could deal with in my old life. It happens. But now, I don't want to feel cortisol or adrenaline ever again.

Like death from a thousand little cuts. No more.