She has lost the plot

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hhaw

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2021, 03:10:02 PM »
I wish I'd had myself in therapy before filing.  Not with any T, but with a Buddhist leaning Trauma Informed T to help me learn to regulate my Nervous System.  Buddhists strive to cultivate a way to live with less suffering and more joy. 

I suppose getting the kids into T won't be possible, bc pd parents typically don't want anyone looking behind the curtain.

In that case, it's even more important for the good enough parent to get T so they can model coping strategies and navigating trauma for their children.

You don't need your wife's permission to see a T.  Maybe the sg can see a T secretly, but the GC would give the game away.

Fight for every inch you can get.  Evidence to show the court your situation.  Advocates to help you and your children through current and all future struggles.  Witnesses to stand up and do the right thing.

Good luck,

hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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escapingman

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2021, 09:06:16 AM »
Hhaw, I am doing a lot of self therapy at the moment listening to audiobooks about recovery. I am going to continue with this to build myself up as much as possible. I am also hoping I can get the courage to get a therapist specialising on this kind of problems. But, I am always having in the back of my mind that any time now it can/will be unbearable and  I just have to go. To always have an alternative I keep booking hotels on a flexible deal so I can just go when this point is coming. I can't see it being to far into the future as I am struggling to just bring myself to be in the same room as uNPDw.

The kids needs to get a T, but there is no way I will be able to arrange that whilst still living with her. We are supposed to be the perfect family that everybody else envy. No problems are allowed to be taken with outsiders, except uNPDw's problems of course as she can tell anyone about how horrible I am......

However, I am pushing it now and I am doing alot for myself. Things I would never have imagined a couple years ago. I go on my own trips, work related or not. Booking myself massages, going to the gym, classes. But still, not enough but at least going in the right direction.

Suppose I am still to scared to just go, not completely Out of the FOG. I think I am waiting for it to be bad enough, bad the fact is that it was bad enough years ago.

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square

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2021, 10:20:12 AM »
To wait for a (relative) crisis wonít work because you need to be doing the planning. You can do the planning without committing to pull the pin. Just because you see a lawyer doesnít mean you must file. You can see a lawyer and figure out the steps to take. And then one day if you feel like youíre ready to jump, you CAN.

You may have to slip into a new habit of cash so you can pay for a lawyer on the downlow. Start by withdrawing like £50 or £100.  Come up with a reason. Take the blowup on the chin. A week later do it again. Say itís for the pub maybe. Wonít go down well but oh well. Youíre an adult. Or something else.

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hhaw

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2021, 12:10:03 PM »
EM:

Understanding the dynamics of your dysfunctional relationship is part of the puzzle.

Understanding how it effects your Nervous System, what it does to your ability to problem solve and access logic..... learn how to shut down fight or flight mode and ragain your emotional and biochemical footing is another piece of the puzzle you're entitled to and can seek out for yourself in Therapy, if you choose.  Maybe.  Hiding a Therapist from your PDw might be necessary and possible.  Feeling entilted and worthy enough to take that step, without discussion or explanation, might help in ways you can't see yet. 

I don't know and I wouldn't have known when I was wearing your shoes either.

What I do know is what I wish I'd have changed and what resources I'd have availed myself to.  I DID see Ts, but I didn't know there were Trauma Informed Ts with Buddhist leanings.... if there were at that time.  Talk T didn't help in any small way. 

I needed to get myself in a better headspace.... for everyone involved.  More planning and doing what I could, then putting the divorce/pd/worrying about my children on the backburner would have meant less worrying myself into an exhausted primal state where logic and creative problem solving skills were outside my grasp. 

You NEED to be able to problem solve and calm your Nervous System...... you're your most valuable asset.

Good luck and I'm glad you're cultivating as much self care you're managing. 

hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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escapingman

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2021, 12:24:11 PM »
Thanks so much for all input.

What is really making a difference is that my cognitive dissonance is getting better, her mask slips way to often for me to even remotely start thinking it could get better. Yesterday she lost the plot for me helping one of the kids logging on the the school system, she needed to see it being done so she could help in the future. Today she went full blown mental about the kids sports team (she hates it and she has no involvement in it), there is a dads chat group where we have some light hearted banter. She told me she must join the group, I said no. She insisted she need to join the group and said the reason was so she could now when there is any changes to the schedule. I told her she doesn't need to as I would tell her of any changes. She then kicked off saying she has to join it and why can't she join. I couldn't help myself and told her the talk is to adult for her. She absolutely lost it starting to screaming at me, then I just told her "I told you". Now she refuse to take the kids to training, cause obviously the kids should be punished for something I have done.

Anyway, this just jump started my planning AGAIN. I need out before I get seriously mentally ill myself.

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hhaw

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2021, 01:22:16 PM »
How are you documenting your situation?

Remember, your behaviors will be judged also if you're recording.

Talking to the best attorneys in your county will prevent your stbx pdw from hiring them.

hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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escapingman

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2021, 01:29:55 PM »
Hhaw, I am just writing down the incidents and then recording as much as possible. Yes, I am aware my behaviour will also be looked at if ever using the recordings. But I am pretty sure anyone with an ounce of intelligence listening to them would now what is going on. She has now pity played it and told the kids how horrible I am treating her like a child and she has gone round in the house talking to her self saying this and that activity is not age appropriate for her. 

I have lined up a firm to speak to, just need the conviction to do it (which I think I have now).

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square

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2021, 01:51:19 PM »
You donít have to be committed to leaving to talk to them. Just go and get the advice you need.

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Poison Ivy

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2021, 02:26:07 PM »
 :yeahthat:

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escapingman

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2021, 02:51:47 PM »
I am committed to leaving, she has just gaslighted her self out of any other option now. Made another lie and turned GC against me again, it makes my hearth bleeding when I hear GC laughing at me making jokes about me based on utter lies.

Just need to get massif together and the leave thus weekend. Couldn't care about anything else other than just break free. I can fight for the kids from a distance, I am of no use when at home in this environment.

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pushit

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2021, 06:45:01 PM »
Regarding getting the kids in therapy - a great time to do this is right after you file.  Have your attorney propose it to her attorney, you can say it's simply to help the kids process the divorce.  When the eyes of the court are watching it's hard for the PD to deny something that would be good for the kids, her lawyer will know this and guide her towards agreeing to therapy.

I've had better luck with therapists that list dialectical behavior therapy as something they practice, they tend to be more familiar with PDs than your normal, run of the mill therapist.  Having a therapist that is familiar with PDs helps because they can spot the peculiarities in the PD's behavior and quickly ascertain who the problem parent is.

Good luck!

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hhaw

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2021, 12:26:20 PM »
My experience with PDs and TS for their children is dismal.  Even when they agree, they sabotage and pull the kids out if they can't control the situation completely.

By that I mean control the T so they're the one making false allegations to authorities about the "normal" parent, which is next level fockery.....esp if GC is being directed to lie by stbx mum.

I've never seen a PD allow therapy where they couldn't completely control the narrative. 

Looking down the road...... I'd try to get myself and SG NTO therapy before filing so it's in place with a T who understands the plot before the PD has a chance to say yes or no to the choice of TS.

This also sturdies up the narrative around the PD's abusive treatment of dad and the SG...... it's a paper trail. 

Hopefully, the Judge won't allow the PD to end SG's therapy once PD discovers it..... hopefully it's in place and one of the things the Judge wants to keep status quo. 

Hopefully the T can support the SG, help her understand and navigate the adult conflict/personal attacks, but more importantly ADVOCATE for this child during what promises to be an ongoing nightmare through SG's entire life....a toxic, blaming, critical, immature PD mother posing as a victim while weaponizing children and pulling the trigger without thought, remorse or the ability to self reflect on those choices, IME.

I'd consider contacting a domestic violence agency and asking for further support, advice and any protective measures for the children available.  It may be useful documentation down the road corroborating the diary, recordings and SG's situation.....GC's situation. 

I feel very sorry for the pD mum, but it's impossible to help people who lash out and do trauma when and if we try, ime.

In that case the primary mission becomes self care and mitigating harm to the children.....and I would like to see the courts SEE, understand and adopt that mission instead of assume everyone lies, split the baby and fail to protect the children, yet again in these situations.

Self care, bc someone should model a functional file for the kids and create a safe place to land.

Self care, bc you're obligated to save yourself, even if you can't save your wife.

So, back to interviews with attorneys and TS, I think.  Now is the time to build the theory of your legal case AROUND your documents and evidence.

You shouldn't say or allege what you can't prove, ime.

Most cases come down to he said/ she said, which is a maddening process when children are involved....we owe it to them to do better than that, ime

Documenting well enough so court officers, including the dumb bunnies likely to buy into the PD narrative but documenting wee enough they SEE the facts, without being able to deny or excuse them....is crucial, ime.

This begins with how we talk about the PD, always, so our voice isn't dismissed as vengeful or unhinged in a typical "divorce" ever.  Even though the PD has been cruel and relentless in her mission to turn the kids against you..... she's still the beloved mother of your children.  You should come across as a loving husband who has tried to "help" his....what do you call her when discussing your situation with attorneys, dv people, judges, neighbors and you FOO/ children?

The narrative....
The theory of your case begins with your evidence and you shouldn't lable your wife EVER, ime. 

You should state facts in a calm, concerned manner to allow listeners to come to their own conclusions.  If you succeed you will create advocates in the telling of your story, ime, instead of people who assume you're lying, or worse, crazy for putting up with what you're alleging without facts.

You want to preserve your integrity while showing the court you're interested....no.....INVESTED in facilitating the best possible relationship between the children and their mother.  You need the court to understand that and believe what your stbx w will likely support with PD behaviors IF you can just hold steady, not get triggered or say negative things about her.

If you pull together the evidence to support your case....you have more ability to limit harm to you and your children, ime.

IMHO, that would look like a good T who monitors the children's mental health, understands the situation and is charged with making reports regarding the Mum's behaviors as they affect the girls......if you can get that from a Judge, that might be helpful and limit the PD weaponizing the children....maybe.

If the PD can't help herself, and you've been able to show the Court harm to the children, maybe supervised visits only till Mum at least fakes appropriate behavior for a while.....then the T is back
monitoring the girls around visits.

It's going to o b a nightmare, no matter what you do, so I advise doing everything you can do to help yourself and your children through the difficult break up and beyond....which is learning good coping strategies, boundaries and emotional regulation for a lifetime of COWs (crisis of the week) bc there will always BE COWs

Having a PDmum is a difficult start in life.  Understanding and learning to COPE with a PD mum could be the silver lining in it.
Evidence collection, organize it, get familiar it so you can calmly lay your hands on any piece of it to back up every statement you make.
Theory of your case needs to be formed around the evidence. 
Good attorney.  You should choose wisely, bc your mental health will be greatly compromised IF you don't feel believed or understood by them, ime.
You need to believe in your counsel AND  if you don't, fire and hire someone better suited early on, rather than later.  Attorneys are tools we wield.  Once you hire an attorney....he or she is your pony.  You pet, feed, saddle and ride your pony through this process.  Avoid making them angry....many have huge egos, ime. 

Establish your story and integrity....never make a judgment or say a cross word about the PD.....be impeccable with your word, always.  The children are the important thing, the children the childrenthechildren.  Always.

Even with your attorney, choose words carefully.  Make it a habit to BE steady, consistently level and compassionate towards your stbx....we have compassion for mentally ill people....right?  She's not the enemy.  She's unwell and the mother of your children.  You made children with her, so be prepared for most people to have zero sympathy for you.  It's ok.  You don't need sympathy.  You need people to do their jobs and, unfortunately, good evidence is the leverage one uses to get compel jaded, very bitter court officers to step up and actually put your children's best interests IN the mix.  IME, they pay lip service to it, roll their eyes and do what they can to scrape their plate of your case as quickly as they can as priority.  Sad, but true.  You have to PROVE everything and always be someone the court CAN trust enough to give you what you're asking for.

Once you file that divorce, do not send mixed messages about your intentions (if you can help it.)

What is the best case scenario, once you're divorced, escapingman?

Your kids can't escape.  What will their lives look like?  Are you go ing for full custody? 

What would that look like?

Could you handle the girls if GC is full out warring against you?

There are 2 choices....to placate the PD parent
or
exert authority over them through the courts (which is laborious, expensive and extremely time consuming, ime.)

Everyrhing you file should be for maximum gain, bc going back is really tough.

Hashing out every detail may seem extreme, but will be central to getting any peace in your lives regarding visitation schedule, hand off, pick ups.....T for the kids.... enforceable through the Courts....how you communicate, any checks on the PD...you have to go for the reasonable max and do not settle for anything akin to emotional suicide, ime.

You're advocating for your ability to give your children some normalcy and protection in a situation offering none as it should ands, ime.

Don't let the PD talk you out of a good plan you make with great consideration, if you can help it.

Compassionate people are vulnerable to that compassion being used against us.

Make a plan.  Stick to it.  Ask a few good supporters to help you stay that course and not veer from it.... Let the people who don't understand go.

  All suggestions made with hindsight.  Your situation is unique and your own, escapingman.

Good luck












hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Simon

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2021, 04:08:49 PM »
I've never seen a PD allow therapy where they couldn't completely control the narrative.
Dr. T (Shrink4Men) mentions this in one of her videos.
She talks about how the PD will sometimes decide to meet the T on their own first, so that they can suss them out, and if possible get them onside and believing that the normal parent is to blame before the proper therapy has even begun.

It's staggering how they simply must have control over everything.
Personally, looking back, in hindsight, I can see many examples of my BPD ex gf making the decisions through coercion and manipulation, that at the time, I thought were my decisions.

I'm so glad that my relationship ruptured before we talked seriously about moving in together/getting married etc, because there are so many really sad stories on these forums, including escapingman's.

God bless those few boundaries of mine that she wasn't able to break down for some reason, which caused her to seek weaker prey.
I'm a lucky man.

Again, good luck escapingman.
We're all rooting for you.

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escapingman

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2021, 04:50:45 PM »
She is throwing it all on this now, 2 solid days she played the victim card to the kids and have at the moment managed to turn them both against me. She is calling me all the things she actually is, and they are lapping it up (or are they?). At the moment she is love bombing them both and at my expense. I have nothing to say, as soon as I have tried to reason they run to her saying I am mean. I done nothing. I am beside myself.

BUT

All of this is just solidifying the fact I am leaving tomorrow, I can't fight her from home as her manipulations beats anything I say. If I stay I would seriously worry about what I would do to someone that spend all their energy on making my life miserable. I am leaving tomorrow morning, I won't go back. Next week I will contact a family solicitor and start the ending of this nightmare. I love my kids to bits but I can't be with them when they are manipulated against me.

I never knew these kind of evil people existed before this.

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pushit

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2021, 03:03:33 AM »
All of this is just solidifying the fact I am leaving tomorrow, I can't fight her from home as her manipulations beats anything I say.

This is extremely accurate, you can't fight them behind closed doors.  PDs play far too dirty to be countered by a rational partner.  Kudos to you for seeing it prior to leaving, I didn't fully realize it until I left and spent time with the kids without her around. 

When you leave, be prepared to go through hell for a short while.  But, it's a different (lesser) kind of hell.  Instead of manipulations behind closed doors, my experience was a nonstop barrage of BS accusations from her and her attorney.  Know that it will eventually dissipate, once things are out in the open the PD will eventually slow down the crazy behavior.  Just remain strong in your position - there is no reconciling, we're moving forward with a divorce, there will be no changing of minds.  I would also avoid verbal conversations - make the PD put everything in writing so you have time to think things over and it can be admissible in court.

and they are lapping it up (or are they?)

I suspect you'll find they aren't 100% on her side, once you create a calm house for them to feel free to be themselves.  It's not gonna happen overnight, but you'll eventually see a change in them.  Remember, a PD's love is conditional, so the kids have to "perform" for her to be loved.  Your love is unconditional so sometimes you will be secondhand news but the reality is they very much appreciate you deep down.  Just hold your head high, never talk negatively about mom, and be the stable, loving parent they need.  Those actions will eventually be rewarded.

I'm going to circle back around on the therapist thing too.  My experience is that any T worth their salt will absolutely demand to speak with both parents before taking a child as a patient.  I'm fortunate that my kids have therapists that aren't rookies, they have seen the parental manipulation game many times.  My exPDw actually tried to sneak them into therapy without me involved prior to the divorce, and the therapist told us to take a hike.  I agree the PD will try to manipulate things, I've found it best to sit back a bit and let the PD burn themselves down.  Never tell the T you think she's a PD, but don't be afraid to tell them what behaviors are happening, but also hold back a little because if you tell them what's REALLY happening it sounds so outlandish they'll start to suspect you're the problem.  It's a delicate dance for sure.  Eventually the PD will act out and the T will see what's going on.  I won't go into details, but at this point all of my kids' therapists see me as the stable parent because I didn't come out of the gate screaming about how mom is the problem, I just let her behavior speak for itself.

And I'll repeat this mantra that's been shared on here a lot.  Remember that it's a marathon, not a sprint.  You're gonna have some REALLY tough days when it feels like the PD has beaten you.  Could be three days after filing, could be two years after the divorce is finalized.  They'll continue to play dirty every way they can, just remember the goal is releasing healthy 18 year olds into the world, whatever small battles you may lose along the way don't matter.

And like me, you'll look back a few years from now when you've found yourself again, and wonder how you put up with this crap for so long.  It's no way to live life.  Best of luck to you brother!

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escapingman

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2021, 07:58:27 AM »
I have left.

Said good morning to GC but got told she is not speaking to me, not a good sign for a kid to be trained to behave like that. SG then came down and spent some time with me, told me she love me more than anything. That felt good. But she will suffer with me away, but what can I do? Last night I laid in bed shaking with anger wonder how anyone can be that mean. Couldn't fall asleep as my body was full of this fight fight fight feeling.

I have various hotels booked for the coming 2 weeks. Going to contact a law firm next week to find out my options. I left all my stuff at home but I don't even care I she throw it all in the bin, I just want my life back.

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DetachedAndEngaged

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2021, 09:03:43 AM »
Wow! Kudos to you escapingman!

I know this is an extremely hard step to take.

You are brave and strong to do this.

Keep up the good work, mate!

We've all got your back.

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hhaw

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2021, 11:29:25 AM »
I don't know how things work where you are.....in divorce....with children.....and a PD.

You would benefit from knowing before you go, ime.

A solid plan would help you feel steady and level....avoid being sabotaged and avoid mistakes.

Once you go....once you file things will escalate like mad, ime.

Be ready to document it.

The kids will think it's their fault you left.

One more thing....if you've been super stoic thru the years..... you've kept secrets and everyone will be shocked when you go.

You should have a group of supporters who believe and understand your situation.....to support your mission and validate your experience, ime.

A good high conflict attorney who's dealt with PD divorces and feels up to this one

I fear your nose is on the PD pebble and you can see nothing else in the field...the other rocks and pebbles and trees and sky.

That you've been documenting and recording is good.  Make sure you take your evidence when you go.

Be prepared for the PD to use the kids in ways you can't imagine.

You might go back to her ....think of it as an opportunity to document your children's reality if you're feeling desperate and stuck in survival mode. 

Any time you raise your voice or get angry.... it's what the PD will be pointing at while posturing dramatically as victim.

Be careful you don't muddy the waters with erratic behaviors if you can.

Good luck



hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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square

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2021, 12:16:07 PM »
Weíre pulling for you.

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escapingman

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Re: She has lost the plot
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2021, 12:41:54 PM »
Hhaw, I have left with literally nothing. I can't go back cause I think something bad would happen. I have to take ut from here.