Black or white

[SonofThunder]

My only opinion/advice is same as previously. Focus on removing the children from PD behaviors.  Since PD behaviors are IDD cycle behaviors and you and your children are, because of the declaration of the truth-war in a pending divorce, experiencing rapid IDD cycles every day, sometimes multiple times per day.  But all stages of IDD are PD behavior. 

Therefore imo, either you and the kids legally get to be separate or she has to leave (legally through a protective order for you and the kids).  If you focus on protecting the children and you are with the children, you will protect yourself as well. 

Again, imo this is a truth war to protect children and yourself.  If the truth is that your wife is (and has been) abusive, and you can prove it, than protecting your kids should not be a problem (legally).  The opposite is true as well, as this is a truth-war.  It is not a hurt-war or a smear-war or a fix-your-PDw war.  It is a truth-war to protect children and therefore as their guardian, protect yourself as well. 

I hope you are documenting her rolling around on the floor crying one minute and then normal the next.  You may possibly have a legal case for a psych evaluation in order to enforce a protective order for you and the kids, and she will have to go elsewhere. 

SoT

[escapingman]

You are spot on SoT, but I am still trying to figure out which the best way to do this is and to cause as little disruption as possible. But I have some to realise that whatever I actually do, it will be the worst betrayal in STBX eyes and she will kick off. The only solution she will accept is that I withdraw my plans and go back to status quo where she can go back to behave like nothing has happened. I don't feel like I have to honour anything I have said to her as it has been manipulated and engineered by her anyway. Anything I say, is ignored, the letter from my solicitor has been ignored. What else can I do? There is only one option left, it is to file and don't give a second thought to what she thinks, after all she blames all the abuse on me anyway.

SG spends almost all time with me, we watch TV together in my office, or she lays on the floor playing on her phone. We went to the park for a kick about, came back and STBX and GC was rowing, STBX playing all of her tricks on GC, I felt sick. SG closed the door to them and told me we should have stayed in the park. I think SG is coming Out of the FOG just by watching me, GC is still in it but I reckon she might come out soon as well as she is getting it all now.

Went out with some friends yesterday, was being picked up by them and STBX tried to control me in where I should wait for them to pick me up. Apparently it was rude to wait outside the house, I should sit inside and wait until they came and knocked on the door.  I really don't think a normal person gives a darn about if you wait inside or outside. But, boy did it feel nice to go out with normal people and not have to worry about if anything would go wrong and potential outbursts.

[hhaw]

EM:

".....trying to figure out how to cause as little disruption as possible....." is an impossible task, ime.

Getting out will create huge disruptions.

Creating a calm environment to introduce your girls to healthy boundaries/family systems will create huge disruptions.

You're in a double bind.    Damned if you proceed with the full evidence and damned if you don't.

You can't see down the road far enough to understand the first choice is the quickest way out of what you can't avoid, no matter what you choose

The saying goes....
The kind cut is the stinkiest cut.

The more wiggle room the PD has, the more chaos and confusion she'll spin, bc that's what PDs DO.

It feels personal.  You feel responsible......but that will fade.  Trust me. 

Allowing her to create confusion waters down your ability to move through the divorce with economy if motion and ...
Trust me ....
You want to prioritize that fir the sake of everyone, particularly the children.

Create your safe space.

Model healthier family systems for your girls while you still can.

What software you and your wife have installed in their little Nervous Systems is what your children have come to know as "normal."

Your old coping strategies will be tested and bested through this.  Accept that and turn to new strategies.....even if they don't seem to help.

They will.

I promise.

Meantime be very kind to yourself.

Suspend all judgment and replace it with curiosity.

Breathe.... All the time, slow and deep.  Fill your lungs, bottom to top, like a vase.

Practice accepting what you can't change.... just let it be.  Put it down.  Let it go and turn to those things you CAN do, like organizing your evidence.

Then put the story down for a while and BE present for your girls.  Really look them in the eyes and be there with them in the moment.  DO cool stuff with them.

Soon enough you'll notice more peace around the PD's efforts to unhinge you.

You're creating more emotional distance when you practice breathing and mindfulness, ime.

Soon you'll understand how it works. 

You're creating new brain pathways....giving yourself a second or 2 before reactivity hijacks your Nervous System and tanks you down old rabbit holes.

Creating a moment before reactivity gives you more choice, ime.

Your ability to respond and be responsive will build stronger, like a muscle, with practice.

Again, be super kind to yourself......
and breathe, EM.

[pushit]

but I am still trying to figure out which the best way to do this is and to cause as little disruption as possible. But I have some to realise that whatever I actually do, it will be the worst betrayal in STBX eyes and she will kick off.

Sounds like you're starting to see this, but you'll need to get yourself to the state of mind where you just go ahead and make the best decision for yourself and the kids and leave it up to your wife to decide how she'll react.  There is no way for your course of action to cause less disruption because the disruption part isn't up to you.  And I know that's hard to do while you're in the storm, so don't be too hard on yourself.  To be honest, it took me awhile after I divorced to finally get there.

The poor behavior will never stop, and it will take on different forms over time.  All you can do is observe, react, and mitigate the harm it could do to your kids.  I'm almost 3 years out and it is still happening.  The only difference for me at this point is I have removed myself from the consequences of her poor behavior, she has almost zero impact on my life now.  I just need to keep an eye on how the kids are doing emotionally and show them healthy ways of interacting with others.

Put yourself and the kids first, release her to be free to be an adult and manage her reactions on her own.

[escapingman]

I am almost there mentally, I really need to realise that whatever I do I need to disregard STBX's feelings and how she will behave. It is unpredictable and I don't owe her anything. I am trying to stay out of any interactions with her, but it's hard, she just had a nasty interaction with GC. I just want to go in and stop it, but from experience I know that they both will turn on me as she is still deep into the FOG (as a kid would be wanting to please her mum). I am going to have to speak to my solicitor early next week and make a proper plan, do we go for having her removed? If, so do I have enough evidence 100% or do I need to stick it out for a bit longer and collect some more. It's hard to do this to someone you been with for so long, but it's not like she considered my feelings during all these years.

Thanks again for all your support.

[escapingman]

You just got to wonder how up their own backside they are. So the facts are, I have told her I want a divorce, gave her the reasons that she is abusive. She got a letter from my solicitor about the coming divorce. She cries, love bombs and threatens me, she then manipulates me into saying I think about it to keep the peace for the kids special event, then  she tricks me into agreeing to a counselling session with her. And now she has been emotionally abusive to GC, then threatening me that she is not going to let me go to a work trip next week that is paying for not just me but also for her salary as we both own the company. How deep does she want to dig her hole? If she stops me going, which I kind of hope, I will file on the spot and have her removed from the house. If I can get away, I speak to my solicitor and file the week after when I am home. I really really have had enough.

[square]

How can she stop you?

[escapingman]

How can she stop you?

I assume by leaving the house forcing me to stay, or telling me she won't let me go. Then obviously it's up to me if I still go or stay. But that would be an immediately action for filing.

[square]

I assume the first scenario puts you in a bind of leaving children alone. Definitely a bind. Do you mean she would just leave for the day? You could plan ahead, do the kids have a friend's house they could go to. Then mom is absolutely forced to pick them up - how would it LOOK if she didn't??

Saying words "I won't let you go" doesn't impress me too much. Does telling her you won't let her abuse the kids work?

[escapingman]

Just need to add that I think the chance of her actually stopping me from going is near zero as she would look bad to others if she did.

[escapingman]

She is definitely loosing it now when I MC and GR her, it's getting easier for me as I don't have any feelings left for her. I spent all day with SG, we had a fantastic day and she told me she love me more than anything in the world. STBX spent all day with GC and they where rowing and shouting at each other all day. I just need to get GC over in my team so she also can enjoy a peaceful life. I am getting there, the FOG is clearing more and more. I have said I am out of it before, but out and completely out is two different things.

[square]

I see you are vigilant for her every reaction. This is good at this particular time, as the opening volleys of the Truth War have been fired. It's a bad way to live, overall, though, isn't it?

I guess the big thing going through your mind is where the red line is. Where do you pull the trigger. And what battle plan do you enact.

I don't know where your red line is. But I sure agree with everyone else that "easy" and "low conflict" and "minimal damage" are NOT on the table. You have tried and tried. But you cannot make that happen alone. She has declared to you, explicitly, that it will be total war.

Either you surrender to her (lower conflict but at enormous cost to you and children), you fight but try to be careful and she takes a big chunk out of you and the kids, or you grit your teeth and stand up to honorably fight the Truth War and fight it to win. There are no options that don't take damage.

It's an awful position you're in and I don't envy you one bit.

I hope you will gain tremendous clarity this week with your solicitor.

[escapingman]

Square, the red line has been crossed. There is no way I am not filing, but it's about timing now. If I knew she would be removed tomorrow I would do it tomorrow. I have always thought I would like a 50/50 custody for the children, I have changed my mind about that I want her out, I don't think she can manage them. Short term yes probably, as she still tries to be better than me, but during a divorce and past it I really don't think I can trust her with the kids. Her emotional abuse to the kids is just to much, how she was punishing GC today and she didn't even knew what she had done was just killing me - especially as I know I need to keep a distance to their fights as they quickly turn against me together.

But in the big picture, it probably wont matter if D-day is tomorrow, next week or in two months time. But it cannot be much longer than that. The way things are going and I am giving her rope, I think she will hang herself very soon. I just need to make sure I am staying as sane as possible until this is happening.

[hhaw]

EM:

PDs often sabotage their own children and lives in order to feel they're "winning,' IME.

They'll bankrupt themselves, their parents, everyone around them to keep a divorce going for as long as they can....gaining them nothing but their children shredded by the Gods if hate and veangence.

It's illogical.  Will never make sense, but us something to keep in mind as you line yourself up in this divorce.

Mitigating harm is a holistic goal.  You try to come out with finances, sanity and children in tact.

You don't get to play nice or avoid upsetting the PD......though you can play pretend till she escalates beyond your wildest expectations. That's about to happen, btw. 

You're trauma bonded to the PD, likely.  Please remember you won't try to use the kids against her like weapons.
You won't keep the kids from her to punish her.
You won't sabotage her life bc you're pathologically unable to settle anything like a reasonable adult, bc you're a fair and decent human being.

Get the upper hand in court and press it to your very best advantage if you want to limit the PD's chaos and trauma to everyone.

If you have decision making power, you'll do the right thing.

The courts will "split the baby" without care for children's best interests IF you fail to SHOW the courts why they need to do otherwise.

Please....show this court why you need their help to provide a sane stable home, sans the PD's ability to abuse all 3 of you at will.

Be the grown up and get what you can.

It's going to be your priority.  You might as well not lose any ground or integrity.

If you go to counseling you send the message you don't really know what you want.  Maybe you'll file divorce.  Maybe you'll go through with it.  The courts see people waffle all
The
Time.

They expect it and quickly are dismissive of the wafflers, ime.

I'll say it again.....
Everything the PD says she needs to remain calm, give you an easy divorce, get healthy is a TrAP.

You will weaken your case and strengthen hers every time you veer from a sound plan made with professional help, ime.

I know how difficult your position is.  I won't lie ....  You're in the abyss.   

You have to go through it to get out, ime, but you'll be happy to feel the sun on your face again.

I promise.

This too shall pass.

[escapingman]

Thanks hhaw!

Right now, it is all about planning and getting this right. I am worried about the fight, I am frankly quite scared what stbx will drag up and present against me. I have had fleas in the past, I have also reacted to her baiting. I have seen how she has taken people down, when she starts she is very convincing. She ALWAYS get her way when she starts, she can argue that black is white with someone and despite the person can clearly see the colour is black agree with her that it is actually white. Right now she has GC wrapped around her fingers, I can't get near her. I am worried what lies she has told her, I mean I am really worried. My gut feeling is that I need so much evidence there is no doubt she is the crazy one. I think I have it, but I need to get it all in order, I have about 500 recordings, many of them useless but some of them gold dust - I need to find the right ones. Now coming up to Christmas is also her worst time of the year, she has not managed one Christmas without a meltdown. Can I manage to wait until the meltdown and record it? I am not sure. Whilst writing this she came into me again asking me to reconsider and fight for the marriage, she just kept pushing and she got visible angrier and angrier when I was not responding as she wanted. In the end she said she was not going to lose her temper and went off in a temper. I am so tired of being worn down like this, whatever I say she completely ignores it. She wants me to give her a definite answer if the divorce is going ahead, but she is not accepting the answer. How many times can you tell someone something before you lose it? Not sure I can be in the same house as her, my mental health really suffers.

[hhaw]

EM:

Are you recording the PD's irrational/abusive behaviors?

If I remember correctly, you had enough evidence to press charges and have stbx removed from the home.

If that's true, consider putting that plan together with your Attorney and whomever is involved with that....the hospital maybe for a psych hold?

You're dealing with an unstable wife/ mother if your children.  You're trying to get everyone into a better/safer space.

It's important you always speak to stbx and about her with compassion.

Tell your story without expectation.  This allows listeners to make up their own minds.

Give facts YOU CAN PROVE.  This keeps you from sounding unhinged while blurting out PD crazy stories without proof, ime.  Build your theory of your case around evidence people can make sense of.  People understand mental health and chemical imbalance issues explained through facts.  Don't use medical terms or diagnose.  Give facts without expectation and allow space for listeners to get upset on your behalf...on your children's behalf.

You're the concerned husband and parent trying to "help" his family "heal."

You don't want to be another litigant in a hairy divorce where everyone lies and is punished in the courts, ime.

That's why getting out ahead of this, steering what comes next, is important, ime.

The PD WILL tell her side and it will ramp up, get crazier and more serious, bc that's what they do.  You already know this.

Remember YOU have evidence.  The PD will not.

Control the narrative while you can, right up front, to stop this divorce spiraling into chaos, if you can.

If you can't, strap in for a longer/messier more damaging struggle, ime.

I'm not gonna lie..... there's no easy way through this.  You're choosing between pretty bad, terrible and tragic choices, ime.

Choosing pretty bad (pressing your evidence early and hard to limit the PD chaos) shortens everything up. 

Tragic is allowing the PD enough time and  wiggle room to manufacture more  chaos and confusion than there is, ime.  It's super hard on everyone, particularly the kids and you, ime.

Compassion is protecting your children.

Compassion is presenting yourself as a living husband who's tried everything for 15 years, but come to the end if your rope.  It's ok to accept your wife's issues and abuse are beyond your ability to cope with.

It's ok to be imperfect.... you're human and dealing with abusive treatment.  People react.  You've reacted badly at times.  People understand that.  Be ready to explain the PD's accusations with very short, succinct answers....
It's like a hamburger. 

Give only the burger.
No bun.
No condiments.
No lettuce or tomato.

Traumatized people tend to ramble and go from one story to another.....giving true PD details making us sound unhinged, ime.

You want to come aft your stories around your evidence.

You want to give the burger and stop talking.  Speak calmly and without expectation for ho w your listener will react, respond, proceed with your information.

If you tell people what the must do and feel they might punish you for it.  Just tell your story....think it through and organize it around your evidence.

The stbx will likely have zero evidence.  This means your narrative will be backed up, make sense AND dilute/disprove the PD's wild multi faceted accusations, ime.  Even if you've list your temper.....people will understand the truth of the situation and you can say you can't deal with the abuse any longer .....you have run out if ways to cope.....the abuse has escalated beyond your ability to remain level, protect yourself, shield the kids.

Always go back to the children in your narrative.

Speak calmly.

Give only the burger.

You're the level, consistent parent and husband and you're heartbroken over the situation, which is moving your family into safe emotional space.

You are not lashing out at your wife in anger and it will be clear she's lashing out irrationally.  Steer that narrative.  BE the steady, non judgmental adult who can
1. Protect the kids.
2. Help the PD to be the best possible parent to the children as she can.  The girls need both parents and you're behind forging an Agreement that truly is in the best interest if the children.

You're asking the court to limit the abuse, stop all adult conflict from spilling onto the children and the court might deem supervised visitation with the PD necessary......at least for a while, if you prove your case IN THE Divorce Petition.

Don't allow this to escalate is my advice.

Go right to the truth in this truth war, as SoT says, bc you're heading there.

It's a matter of limiting the PD chaos and confusion manufacture.

Honestly, surprise us the best way to file, IMO.

You don't have that. 

You have the PD plotting and planning and you already know how that goes.

Get in front of it and stay there if you can.....
Best of luck.













The stbx will be

[escapingman]

Ok, so now she is seriously in the Idolise phase in the cycle. I find this hardest in many way as my guard goes down, body starts relaxing and the cognitive disconnance starts. She behaves like everything is normal, if this only was the normal..... but I know, an explosion is only round the corner and something I really can't do anything about. Just need to keep focusing on me, the kids and the goal.

[Rose1]

I agree with hhaw. Be strategic as she says. Focus on your goal and make it fast.

[escapingman]

Please give me strenght, am I supposed to look after a child (stbx)? Last week when she refused to accept the divorce she got me into agreeing to think about it. So I have (no change), today when leaving for a work trip.

STBX: Have you thought about what you want to do about all this?
EM: Yes, I just can't do it anymore.
STBX: What?
EM: I have had enough of fighting, so I think it's best for everyone to call it a day.
..... lots of arguing and blame g from her side....
STBX: So what are you gonna do then?
EM: I don't want a fallout, but I can't continue like this So I want a divorce.
STBX: Just like that? You not even gonna think about it?
EM:I have and I want a divorce.
STBX: OK, then you can cancell all your work and this work trip as I won't look after the kids.
EM: OK, so what you gonna do just walk?
STBX: YES you can forget working.
EM: OK, I think about it then.
STBX: This us not fair, can't leave me not knowing what you are going to do. You need to let me know.

[square]

Just trying to punish and control you.