Black or white

[escapingman]

Is it all Black or White? I know my STBX thinks all is either Black or White, but do I have to do the same? I will have to blame her on a divorce petition, she refuse to accept it, she has said she will drag me through the courts and make my life hell. She says I am to blame too, I probably am to a certain extent, I have let this dance go on and I have fought back..... in the past. I am Out of the FOG now and I am not interested in any fights, I have little feelings for her, both positive and negative, but I do feel sorry for her that she doesn't get it, but I accept it and know that is how it will be and I can't change it. Right now she have got it in to her head that she can stop this and get me back, it really doesn't matter what I do or say, I am painted white and she has to get me back. As soon as she realise that she can't get me back, I am pretty sure she will paint me black and do whatever it takes to hurt me. BUT, is there a way to get this Black a little bit grey? Is it not worth a try? I have told her for now that I will go with her in a counselling session in a few weeks for an issue she has, I have tried to help her with this issue for years. I have promised her to hang fire on proceedings until we have had this sessions, right or wrong I don't know. But what I do know is that I owe this to my kids, if I can help STBX just a little bit to be a better mum I do that. For my selfish bit I will also do this as it would make me feel a little bit better if I at least try, what does a couple of weeks do when I have already been with her for 15+ years. As I said, I am Out of the FOG and I am looking to my future and what my options are. Is it mean to give her hopes (she is giving herself hope) when all I am trying to do is help her? She has said she wont go if I don't come, threats I know, but I could not forgive myself if something happened regarding this issue and I didn't sacrifice a couple of weeks when I already sacrificed so many years.

My plan is clear, the divorce petition is there waiting to be submitted. It can be done tomorrow, or in a week or in a months time. If she says she will contest it I have 2 options as far as I know, one is to put all blame on her and drag her name through the mud and fight for myself. This is really not the option I want, it will exhaust me and she would smear me to everyone. The second option would be to wait until April, I know this is not ideal what so ever, but I think new divorce laws are coming in my country and you can file for divorce without blame. This would not require her to agree and therefor she can't contest it. She would also be kept less angry as I would not blame her. But, I can't see how I can manage another half a year with her with doing MC and GR.

So in all, there are 3 ways.

1) Get her to agree to my divorce petition that she is at fault with mild accusations
2) Fight fire with fire and do all it takes to win
3) Wait until April and go down the blame free route

Option 1 is obviously my preferred one, but I am afraid she won't agree to this. Then option 3 would be my second option, but I can't see me managing to wait for that long and I know for sure her abuse will ramp up again, especially since she can't go through Christmas without any big melt downs. So I can see option 2 happen, despite this is the one I really want to avoid. Option 2 will start as soon as her next rage comes, unless I have managed to get option 1 before.

Sorry for all rant and I don't know if anything makes sense or what I really want with this. Suppose I just need some validation on my thinking or if I am just going bonkers.

[Associate of Daniel]

Is separation now, then filing after April an option?

Probably a silly question.

AOD

[escapingman]

AOD, yes that would be one option. I will need to talk to my solicitor about all pros and cons, but right now I am just trying to breathe and get by day by day.

[Boat Babe]

Separate asap and prepare for an easier divorce in April. That's what I think.

[square]

I think him staying in the house is required for custody reasons - not a lawyer, just my understanding of the legal advice he already got.

I don't know, escapingman, but she is perfectly willing to put you in a bind. I wonder if you can shift the pressure to her. Like you'd be willing to wait... but if she does X or Y, you're filing. And prepare to follow through.

[blunk]

EM, first I want to say that I am so sorry for all that you have been going through. A few of the things that you wrote struck a chord with me.

I have promised her to hang fire on proceedings until we have had this sessions, right or wrong I don't know. But what I do know is that I owe this to my kids, if I can help STBX just a little bit to be a better mum I do that.

I hate to be this blunt, but I don't know how else to word it...I hope you don't take offense. It is NOT up to you to help her be a better mom. That is something that has to come from within her. She has to be willing to do the work for herself, and for the sake of the children.

She has said she wont go if I don't come,

This is straight up manipulation. Back to what I said above, if the issue is important to her, and something she really feels she has to work on, she would go on her own. To make herself better, to be better mom for her children. It is more likely, as you said, that she will be looking to blame you, and possibly get the T to "take her side". Do you really want to subject yourself to that? And, if she is successful, could she later use that against you in court?

I have been following your story, and this seems IMO like just another way for her to keep you hooked. She knows now that you are serious about divorce, whether she admits it or not, and this gives her at least a few more weeks to try to wear you down. You mentioned previously that your solicitor felt you had enough evidence to have her removed from the home. That speaks volumes, and more than likely means you have a case to prove abuse of both yourself and the children. That could definitely be to your benefit in divorce proceedings, and may even limit her to supervised visitation.

I know that the whole process is scary, especially when the PD is making threats. When I divorced my bpdxh, he did a lot of the same things your wife is doing. First he wanted to fight for us, then he hated me, blamed me for wasting 20 years, threatened to tell my family, the courts, and even my employer "all about me and all of my dirty little secrets" (I still have no idea what these secrets are), he was going to burn down the house, harm my dogs, harm himself. I was prepared for whatever he threw at me, but in the end he did none of it. He came to the divorce proceedings, stated to the judge that he agreed to what was in the settlement, and that was that.

I do know one thing for sure, I was not able to think clearly while I was still in the house with him. I was constantly on edge (literally shaking when I had to be in the same room), couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, and my work was suffering as a result, which made me fear for my job. I know this is just a forum, and none of us know each other personally, but...if you were a friend asking for my advice, I would tell you to file now...including the action to have her removed from the house. IME, with a PD, there will always be another reason to delay. With my x it was that he just starting a new job and he didn't yet qualify for insurance (heart condition), he got sick and was hospitalized (different issue, not life threatening) and thought he was going to lose his job even after he was assured he was safe as he had doctor's notes, and on and on. Even if you choose not to proceed with the divorce until April, you need to get into your own place, away from her, so that you have the time and space to think clearly about everything. I wish you well on whichever path you choose.

[pushit]

 

I'm with blunk on this one, it sounds like your wife is just making up reasons to make you feel guilty and keep you strung along for a while longer.  The reality is you can't help her become a better mom, you can't be responsible for her getting treatment for whatever the issue is.  We can't change people or force them to do anything, they need to want it themselves enough to take action.

[Penny Lane]

I agree with everything blunk said, and I agree that if it's an emergency (including for your own mental health) you should file now and remove her from the house.

But ... if you can handle it, and especially if you can physically separate in the meantime, I would wait to file until April. Long term, I think having a situation where she doesn't have to admit fault or agree to anything will get you better results. With a divorce you should absolutely be prepared to fight and defend your boundaries if you have to. But if you can find a way to deescalate the conflict, that's even better. And a PD is going to have a really hard time admitting fault ever, even in an extremely mild way.

Of course you need to be prepared for B at all times.

Or, brainstorming, can you file now and then kind of slow roll it until April? Definitely talk to a lawyer about the pros and cons, and ideally a therapist who understands PDs can help guide you.

Whatever you choose, this will be really hard. But there is so much happiness ahead of you! We're all rooting for you.

[square]

I 100% agree this is just her latest manipulation. 100%. Straight up.

I don't have any feelings on whether you should wait until April or file now or something in between. It's complicated and you will make the right choice.

In my previous post, I just wanted to caution against leaving the house IF that legally impacts your custody. From where I stand, that issue is a priority.

And, just don't forget, you have power. A lot of it. We nons do not enjoy using our power against another person, and I think that's right. But in situations like this, I think it would be wrong to let her gain the upperhand. She will not use her power for justice or fairness, only to get everything she wants, absolutely no holds barred. She unhesitatingly harms your CHILDREN for her sick benefit.

Your power can right the ship. You won't use it to humiliate her but to protect yourself and the kids. She will stop at NOTHING. You can stand up and set limits.

She doesn't want a divorce. You have divorce papers. It's a laugh that she has YOU dancing for her, at all. It's time for her to dance for you. And if not? Too bad.

[hhaw]

What Blunk said. 

And further.....this latest manipulation isn't the stbx manipulating you, em.

It's you allowing it, despite all indications and warnings THIS exact kind of manipulation was coming and then some.

What worries me is how effective her small manipulations are when you're not more deeply mired in the shite.

What happens when the stbx pulls out the big guns?

She knows you always give in. 
Because you always have.
It's how you got to 15 years with her.
The PD repeats what has worked for her in the past and that's your guilt and nice guy image of yourself, imo and my experience.  I was a nice guy too.

You are leading her on, whether you like it or not.

You are, for as long as she gets something for her manipulations/threats/terroristic displays.  You're right when you say she thinks she can save this marriage. She believes that, bc she always has.

I'd like to think your stbx might actually enter therapy for herself IF YOU follow your original plan and stop giving her hope.

Your kids are on this roller coaster too.  Economy of motion/expense/trauma are important, ime.  Mainly bc you'll get healthier, stronger and more stable when you're away from the PD.  You're wasting precious energy you could spend on yourself and children, but squander on the PD bc you feel she might benefit from your efforts.  I honestly believe she's more likely to escalate more drastically, bc you're entering into T with her.  I say this bc PDs tend to resent deeply anything they're forced to do to get us back in line.  Esp if their effort fails, ime.  They turn it into a huge...."You made me do X and now I have to punish you!" It's a thing best avoided, ime.

Blunk got it right, imo.

Be ready to answer the question....
"Why would you go to T with her IF all your accusations are true?"

It's super likely she'll escalate this to nuclear levels......when you begin stating PD facts, people will wonder why you stayed this long AND sometimes they wonder out loud....
What did you DO to the PD to MAKE her act that way?  That's when you can prove your case and produce evidence, ime.

Best advice is to treat dumb questions as an opportunity to teach.  Be helpful, give short answers and don't count on anything good coming from that counseling session.  The PD will want to control the session, not grow or learn from it.


Continued good luck, em.

[SonofThunder]

EM, you wrote "but I think new divorce laws are coming in my country and you can file for divorce without blame." 

In matters of high importance and high risks, i typically choose the option(s) that have the most 'knowns' vs 'unknowns'.  Your #3 of your three choices contains a very large unknown, because you have no control over divorce laws and it may NOT happen, because of the politics of a very few powerful people.  So imo, only #1 and #2 are considerations for you.

Since I believe fear of abandonment (foa) is the most powerful, hallmark trait of PD's, getting them to agree to abandonment (being alone to face themselves) is imo, not going to happen.  Therefore #1 is unrealistic unless there is  A: Another man in her life (not facing real foa)  B: Enough money in the settlement for her is, in her mind, worth facing foa. 

In none of the options, did you even bring up custody of the children. Imo, that is a HUGE factor since they are verbally abused and manipulated as flying monkeys, by your uPDw.  Since they are not adults, they need YOU to protect them. If #2 is the way for EM to get full custody, then #2 is my choice for you. Most soldiers dont yearn to go into battle, but many believe the hopeful shorter period of war-hell is better than the long term hell they face for not going.  AND, many soldiers willingly go to war to improve life for their children.  Your uPDw's confronting behaviors crossed into friendly allied territory many years ago and it may be time for her lie in the bed she made.   

If you choose to go to #2 (a legal war of truth, not to hurt or hate), with the mindset of taking back the invaded territory of your sanity and physical health (for both you and your children) does #2 offer you full legal custody of your kids?   

** #1 sounds like joint custody and so your kids suffer with that (potentially having that continued suffering effects carry well into their adulthood, like many of us here on Out of the FOG).  I personally believe if the only way for you to have full custody is a #2 full-on legal war on TRUTH of abuse, then it is your fatherhood duty to try your best for that reason alone. 

I came out if the fog after my kids were adults and out of the home, but you have an opportunity to fight NOW for your kids future mental and physical health.  If you can get full custody (full legal control) of your children, then you have a HUGE legal advantage to work with going forward, regarding any visitation with their mother, and that is a KNOWN vs the unknowns of #1.  Again #3 is an unknown all by itself, so imo should be discarded. 

SoT

[escapingman]

You get me crying here, I can't believe that a bunch of "strangers" would care so much about me and my situation. I just can't believe it, you have all shown me more compassion and sympathies than I got from my STBX for 15 years. I am mentally worn down, my chest feels tight, I feel like I almost want to throw up. I have no appetite, I force myself to eat. The only thing that makes it bearable to be in the same house as her is to have a drink, take the edge of this and pretend this is just a bad nightmare.

I can see clear what is needed, or as clear as I can in my mental breakdown. I need out, I just need out. I can't save the kids from within. Me or her needs gone, as soon as possible. When I agreed to this session with her that was very much to also get myself away for a week just before. After some consideration, and reading all your advice, there is no way I can participate in that. I don't really know about the options I put on there before, I just need out. I won't last another year if I don't go. I am going to my all to make it through over the weekend, lie to her, pretend whatever it takes, then go away for a week and decide next steps from there. I am shaking, I feel revolted, I feel discussed by just hearing her false voice. 

I have spoken to.....
.... My doctor
.... My solicitor
..... Social Services
..... The Police
..... One of my oldest friends.

ALL told me to divorce her. I should do that, shouldn't I?

[square]

EM, you don't have a choice. Reread what you just wrote. Getting through the day is requiring heroic efforts that are hollowing you out inside.

Imagine waiting a year. A year of this.

Imagine doing it the rest of your life.

[SonofThunder]

EM, im sending comrade, truth-soldier strength vibes to you for the journey.  So again;

....Out of the FOG friends around the world
....Doctor
....Solicitor (and the law)
....Social Services.
....The Police.
....One of your oldest friends.
....TRUTH
....Your CHILDREN.

You are NOT alone, but you have sought after counsel from many in that list.  What you MUST do alone though, is answer your final question, as none of the good counselors above can make that for you. But....its only a decision....a decision to either go to a truth-war (not intending to hurt, smear or bear false witness) and bring yourself and kids into a place of peace.  Or decide not and allow your children and you to suffer in the continued siege of abuse.  A decision to make and move BRAVELY forward in whatever decision you make.  Wars are lost on indecisiveness and failure to boldly move forward in the face of battle-hell. 

Once you make the final decision, then all the counselors above are with you/available to you through the truth-war.  You are not alone, but must only decide alone. 

SoT

[escapingman]

She got the warning, the letter from my solicitor about a divorce based on her "mild" faults. She denied and said she would fight it. I need to go full on filing for divorce based on her abuse, including all her sh*t. Anything else and I will lose.

Thank you all.

[SonofThunder]

She got the warning, the letter from my solicitor about a divorce based on her "mild" faults. She denied and said she would fight it. I need to go full on filing for divorce based on her abuse, including all her sh*t. Anything else and I will lose.

Thank you all.

So, Did you choose your #2? 

If yes, go boldly and highly planned/organized, using the solicitor and the law and not retreat any longer.  Divorce is a boundary don't forget.  She cannot stop you from pursuing, but only attempt to make it more difficult and lengthy and potentially hurtful (and controlling) on the kids by her own ability to control (in her full or joint custody).  Therefore protecting the kids is, imo the MAIN goal for you in a divorce and your peace can come after, as a result of a protective battle victory.

Also if yes is your choice, my recommendation is to stick with a truth-war to the full extent of the law. She will feel hurt and smeared but thats just what revealed truth does on its own. 

*Imo, you already 'declared war' previously by the solicitor letter, so imo the "sh*t" you mention would only be made worse in a retreat after a war declaration.  I like the word 'truth' better because 'sh*t' is just a general name you personally give it, as its underneath the umbrella of 'truth', as it has been your (and the children's) experience.  If it isn't truth, then its an opinion or a lie.  Truth wins truth-wars. 

SoT

[escapingman]

Yes SoT, I will need to go for option 2. This will hurt, but I cannot protect her anymore on my expense. I don't know what she will bring up, I had fleas for many years and I have taken her bait at many times. But I know the truth, I can only fight for what I think is the right. This thing about the session is so minor in the big picture, why have I even bothered about it? But if I can get away for a week, regroup and discuss next steps with my solicitor I should be in a much better state. I can't even think when at home, she keeps coming in to me like a yoyo demanding attention wearing me down.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE WITH SOMEONE THAT PAINTS YOU EITHER BLACK OR WHITE! IT IS!

[Lauren17]

I'm late to this thread.
I'm glad you listened to Blunk and to SoT and the kind and honest words of all the others.
You are not alone. I also almost let stbxh talk me into counseling with him. I had the same thoughts you did about helping h to be a better parent. And giving a little now to make things easier later.
We went to a preliminary appointment and he went full victim mode. It took me a week or so of wavering and some similar straightforward words from a friends to stop heading down that path. 
Divorcing a PD is a terrible journey. We will make mistakes. That's ok. We'll  correct the mistakes. We'll learn from them. We'll press on.

[Rose1]

Something to keep in mind especially since you are a man.
DH's expdw threw herself down the stairs and called the police alleging abuse. It was only because his kids told the police what happened that he did not spend a few nights in jail.

He was told if there is a domestic incident someone  goes to jail, mostly the man. However  because of the stair incident they put her on the nut case file. Each time there was a complaint the police still had to turn up. The chief used to come with them because of the delicate situation. A sea of blue with flashing lights regularly for a couple of months.

Do not underestimate what can happen if you are on he receiving end of a pd extinction burst. There have been a number of cases we know about that were similar.

IMO you need to be strategic, and if you have grounds to have her removed, do so. Without delay. Things get bad enough during court without a dv record. We are used to placating but this will not work anymore.  If we allow the pd to call the shots it will not go well.

If your lawyer thinks she can be removed ask him about taking the kids away for a week while its happening.  Expect the unexpected

[escapingman]

Thanks again for all your support.

Having had some time to digest everything and reread your advice and my own thoughts. There is one big problem in all this, and that me myself being to weak to hold my boundary. When it is under constant attack, from 3 angles, love bombing, victimhood and threats, it is so hard to stay focused. I really don't think I will be able to move on with this if I am having contact with her. My heart bleeds when someone is behaving like I have ruined their entire life. Kids are wondering what is going on, how do I try to explain her rolling around on the floor crying? Which of the options it is really doesn't matter, I just need to not betray myself. I will have to contact my solicitor next week and really get to know my options and what could really happen if I leave the house and move out. I think I need out and not have her out as the house is filled with emotions and reminds me about her. If I get out, I might be able to get the kids moved in with me, I don't know, I need my options. Right now she is playing a game, she keep trying to talk to me, engage me, and if I stick to MC and GR she plays the victim for a minute or two, then she comes and tries again, and plays the victim, rinse and repeat. If I engage in a longer conversation than 2 words, she thinks all is forgotten and behaves like we are back together again, and then get extra victimised next time I MC her. It is SOOOOOO difficult to stick to MC and GR ALL DAY LONG, I have kids in the house I want to engage with.

As soon as STBX leaves the house for a couple of minutes, it's like the air just stops and peace just arrives. She went out with GC today, when the door closed, SG looked at me and we both without saying anything just smiled and calmed down.