Nice waif mom wants to talk

[WinterStar]

So, just got an email from my nice waif BPD mom. She wants to talk in person or on video chat so she can apologize to me and listen to anything I'd like to say to her. She does not understand that this is my worst nightmare. I don't want to do some confront-y thing with her. I've been dialing up the distance with her for years because she cannot interact with me without also hurting me. I know how this will go. She will be so upset, so sorry, so weepy. And if I were to say something, where would I even begin? Maybe start with, "You don't respect my boundaries, like when I told you last year that I don't have anything I need to discuss with you." This offer is, again, a complete misread on her part of who I am and what I want. Though, really, it's what she wants and not really about me at all.

I've also noticed that I can stand up for myself in short bursts and in writing, but I cannot process and respond quickly enough for live, emotionally charged interactions. I end up letting her "explain" away all fault for everything. This is why she misses talking on the phone with me so much. She has the upper hand there. But I've always hated phone calls with her. They aren't ever safe. Sometimes they go well, but there's an ever present threat of emotional damage. They exhaust me. I let them peter out and don't do them anymore. Haven't for years. But video chat. I mean, I hate those on a good day with people I like. And the only reason I see her in person ever is the kids. I'm certainly not doing it for any other reason.

I assume I respond super casual. Like, "Thanks for the offer, but I'm gonna have to decline." What thinks you wise, experienced people?

[Andeza]

Pretty much. I always defaulted to "I prefer texts and email, thanks," when I was still in contact with my uBPDm. She hated it because her preference was to railroad the conversation for 2+ hours and she couldn't do that in a text or email.

[SunnyMeadow]

Apologize to you ... yeah right!  She wants to do whatever it takes to get you back. She can want the call all day, everyday but it doesn't mean you do. 

I like your idea of "Thanks for the offer, but I'm gonna have to decline." and Andeza's reply too! Short and to the point.

[IntoTheLight]

Declining is a good idea, but if you feel you can't decline, maybe it's a good idea to not show or tell how you really feel? Or say that you are willing to do that, but you don't have anything you want to say to her? Or maybe say you'll think about it?

My uBPD mom wil latch on to anything I have to say about my feelings and throw it back in my face when I feel down so I learned to not show my feelings a long time ago. When I have to be in contact with her I refuse to talk with her about things she brings up that are in the past. She is very old now and not able to push me into a corner like she used to. Also, she is dependend on my sister and me.

I have learned waifs can become witches pretty easily. The book 'Understanding the borderline mother', about these archetypes was very insightful for me. I learned more about how to deal with the four types. 

[WinterStar]

Pretty much. I always defaulted to "I prefer texts and email, thanks," when I was still in contact with my uBPDm. She hated it because her preference was to railroad the conversation for 2+ hours and she couldn't do that in a text or email.

Yep. I've stated my preference for written communication before. And it's a genuine preference that I have generally, which I've told her.

But she misses our ridiculously long phone calls where she could drop emotional bombs and manipulate me into staying on the line. When I said I needed to go, she would ignore that and briefly bring up something that would interest me in order to hook me back on. And then just never stop talking long enough for me to say I need to go. Once I finally got off the phone, I had to recover. So much wasted time and energy. I wonder why I don't miss them.

[WinterStar]

Apologize to you ... yeah right!  She wants to do whatever it takes to get you back. She can want the call all day, everyday but it doesn't mean you do. 

I like your idea of "Thanks for the offer, but I'm gonna have to decline." and Andeza's reply too! Short and to the point.

Yes, my mom primarily wants me to go back to my old role. There's a  part of her that genuinely feels sorry. But in talking about it, she's always seeking emotional care and reassurance that it wasn't that bad. She also blames others, mostly her parents and my dad, for everything. So it's not really her fault. And she can use the apology as a springboard to complain about her sad life story. I remember her complaining about how she always had to care for her mom's emotions and how hard that was. She truly has no idea that she's done the exact same thing to me. She thinks she's corrected the problem because she's done the opposite of her mom. Like, her mom didn't talk about things, so my mom tells me everything, including details about her sex life. She's so very proud that she does this, and she always says she does it to help me, so I have to listen to everything she wants to say.

[WinterStar]

Declining is a good idea, but if you feel you can't decline, maybe it's a good idea to not show or tell how you really feel?

I agree about keeping my emotions close to the vest. If I share emotions, she sees the opening to share hers. I try to talk about preferences and leave emotions out.

I know other waify people with BPD turn into witches. My mom does not. She has to see herself as nice always. She always does the "right" thing. Because of this, I never viewed her actions as abusive until I was in college and a counselor told me she was abusive. Even then, I viewed it as unintentional and didn't hold her responsible. I understood my Ndad's abuse when I was 8. Once I heard about NPD, I knew he had it. But it took me forever to pin my mom's PD down. Lots of lit on BPD has the witchiness front and center.

[moglow]

The closest I'd be willing to let that get is "Thank you for offering but I believe I told you some time ago there's nothing I need to discuss. Please just tell me whatever it is you'd like to say."

A teary waify "what can we do to fix this" ain't gonna fix it. Just because it's the holiday season and she's trying to save face with whoever doesn't mean anything has changed. It took years (decades?) to get to this point and nothing in her treatment of you has changed or the relationship would have changed. Yes you've shut her out, because you ran out of options and the same conversations weren't getting you anywhere.
If she has things to say, say them. Period. You don't. No harm no foul and she can do with that whatever she wants, as she would anyway.

[WinterStar]

She can want the call all day, everyday but it doesn't mean you do. 

SunnyMeadow, thinking more about this, and it's so true. But in her book I'm not allowed to want something different than what she wants. Somehow to her it means I don't really love her. And it's not enough to do whatever she wants out of love, I'm supposed to want it too. So I've spent a lot of my life trying to convince her that I really did want to go to that museum with her again even though I hated it. Or, yes, I absolutely loved that tone deaf gift you got me last year, mom. The alternative was to clean up all of her messy emotions, which has always been my responsibility. She has never wanted to know what I want or think or feel. Unless it's what she wants me to want or think or feel.

[WinterStar]

The closest I'd be willing to let that get is "Thank you for offering but I believe I told you some time ago there's nothing I need to discuss. Please just tell me whatever it is you'd like to say."

A teary waify "what can we do to fix this" ain't gonna fix it. Just because it's the holiday season and she's trying to save face with whoever doesn't mean anything has changed. It took years (decades?) to get to this point and nothing in her treatment of you has changed or the relationship would have changed. Yes you've shut her out, because you ran out of options and the same conversations weren't getting you anywhere.
If she has things to say, say them. Period. You don't. No harm no foul and she can do with that whatever she wants, as she would anyway.

I don't even want to hear what she has to say. I stopped asking her how she is forever ago. I just say, "I hope you're well." And I do, but I don't want to be dumped on. This is her main problem. I was her favorite emotional dump and a steady source of reassurance and love, and she's upset that she doesn't have that anymore. What I did for her was never enough, and once I figured that out, it didn't make sense to twist myself into a pretzel all the time anymore.

Back in April of 2020 when everything shut down, my mom invited the whole family to keep in touch and was giving out assignments on how we could all participate. I was nine months pregnant and unexpectedly homeschooling three kids during a global pandemic. The idea of another thing to do made me crazy, so I declined. She called my brother and wept. He told me to fix it. I was done. Done done. I mean, it's one thing if you can't support your daughter during a particularly hard spot, but she needed me to support her. All my life she's convinced me that she has things "harder", so of course she needs support, and I don't get any. That was a clarifying moment where I clearly had things harder, but the dynamic was the same, and I will never, ever get real support.

[Leonor]

Hi Winter,

My Queen mom got waify from time to time too. It was SO confusing! She's begging me to let her in, she's tearing up saying she loves me, she just wants to know what I need from her ... And yet all I feel is NO. What's wrong with me?

What I realized after lots of work was, that "NO" was truth. No, that's not right, no, that's not support, that's not what is good for me.

You're right, it's all about her. It's always been all about her: Oh I never got this from my mom, so I'm going to get it from you. Me me me me. My mom my childhood my pain my needs my me me me me.

NO.

An adult exposing a child to adult sex is child sexual abuse. It doesn't matter if she says she was trying to be open with you. Or teach you something. Or treat you like an adult. Or not know that was inappropriate. Or not what she meant. Did she have these conversations with the supermarket cashier? The mailman? Your elementary school teacher? No. So she did know about appropriate boundaries, and privacy, and respect. But she is a narcissist, and abusive, and so she decided to abuse you.

NO. Not anymore.

[WinterStar]

You're right, it's all about her. It's always been all about her: Oh I never got this from my mom, so I'm going to get it from you. Me me me me. My mom my childhood my pain my needs my me me me me.

NO.

You're absolutely right. The most confusing part is that she would say, "I didn't get this from my mom, so I'm going to do this for you." Even though it was really for her the whole time. And if I said, "I don't want that", she'd just do it anyway. Sometimes she'd tell me that it was good for me even though it was poison. And even though she did the "opposite" of her mom, she really did the same thing. Her mom didn't take her cues and didn't give her what she needed. So, she turned around and didn't take my cues or give me what I needed. She never really listened or believed me. And I've never had the heart to directly say that because it would devastate her to know this. I mean, that's if she believed me.

There's something hilariously selfish about, "Make yourself available in the way I want so that I can apologize to you." Even now, she misses the opportunity to say, "I sense that I have hurt you and would love to know what you want."

[moglow]

Ah. She wants to apologize? She should do that and be done with it. She doesn't get to decide what you do with that apology, or that things "return to (her idea of) normal." And you STILL dont have to discuss anything. But no - I notice she didn't simply offer said apology, she dances around it. She puts conditions on it, that she has to see you, knowing that's something you've avoided.

Her offer reeks of a guilt trip in the making. Given what you've said, I wouldn't respond. She's gonna do what she's gonna do either way, but you have nothing to say, so what's the point.

[blacksheep7]

You're right, it's all about her. It's always been all about her: Oh I never got this from my mom, so I'm going to get it from you. Me me me me. My mom my childhood my pain my needs my me me me me.

NO.

You're absolutely right. The most confusing part is that she would say, "I didn't get this from my mom, so I'm going to do this for you." Even though it was really for her the whole time. And if I said, "I don't want that", she'd just do it anyway. Sometimes she'd tell me that it was good for me even though it was poison. And even though she did the "opposite" of her mom, she really did the same thing. Her mom didn't take her cues and didn't give her what she needed. So, she turned around and didn't take my cues or give me what I needed. She never really listened or believed me. And I've never had the heart to directly say that because it would devastate her to know this. I mean, that's if she believed me.

There's something hilariously selfish about, "Make yourself available in the way I want so that I can apologize to you." Even now, she misses the opportunity to say, "I sense that I have hurt you and would love to know what you want."

My M also did not get it from her M, she died in her early thirties so M was brought up by a step-M, then an aunt.
She tried to parentify me but failed.  I felt that it wasn't real love, she never protected us from our raging NF.  She succeded with my sister, the last in line, the lost child.   We are only supply to them, to the emptyness of their self which is the main objective of their  phone calls but at the same time, they will say that there're calling to see how we're doing....yeah right.  They don't listen, only keep in mind what offended them.  My M never believed me either, everyone else was right except me, the truth teller.  They are BIG manipulators.

Stick your boundaries WinterStar

[WinterStar]

Her offer reeks of a guilt trip in the making.

Guilt is her main manipulation tactic. But I figured out that I'm not responsible for others' feelings, so as much as this situation is uncomfortable for me, I don't feel guilty about it.

[WinterStar]

I felt that it wasn't real love, she never protected us from our raging NF.  She succeded with my sister, the last in line, the lost child.   We are only supply to them, to the emptyness of their self which is the main objective of their  phone calls but at the same time, they will say that there're calling to see how we're doing....yeah right.  They don't listen, only keep in mind what offended them.  My M never believed me either, everyone else was right except me, the truth teller.  They are BIG manipulators.

Stick your boundaries WinterStar

blacksheep, thanks for the encouragement. My mother also never protected me from my raging NF. She told me she stayed with him to protect me. She told me that if she had divorced him, he would have had partial custody and she wouldn't have been there to protect me, so she stayed. This of course meant that I was around his rage every day. And, she still left me alone with him at times. Plus, she never actually did protect me even when she was present. She just made excuses for him. My favorite is, "He loves you, he just doesn't know how to show it." So the whole "I stayed with him to protect you" line is just nonsense. And it's worse than nonsense. It's abusive. It's gaslighting. She stayed because of her own issues, and then pretended it was a selfless act.

[Cat of the Canals]

Back in April of 2020 when everything shut down, my mom invited the whole family to keep in touch and was giving out assignments on how we could all participate. I was nine months pregnant and unexpectedly homeschooling three kids during a global pandemic. The idea of another thing to do made me crazy, so I declined. She called my brother and wept. He told me to fix it. I was done. Done done. I mean, it's one thing if you can't support your daughter during a particularly hard spot, but she needed me to support her. All my life she's convinced me that she has things "harder", so of course she needs support, and I don't get any. That was a clarifying moment where I clearly had things harder, but the dynamic was the same, and I will never, ever get real support.

No wonder you have no desire to go down this road with her! This is clearly a one-way relationship in her mind, so she wants things settled so you can go back to supporting her. And I'm sure the idea that YOU MIGHT NEED SOME SUPPORT NOW AND THEN is a foreign concept to her. That, or she's like my PDmom, and her version of "support" isn't actually support.

Yeah, I don't blame you at all for not wanting to have this conversation in any way shape or form. I think a polite decline is a smart way to go.

She's begging me to let her in, she's tearing up saying she loves me, she just wants to know what I need from her ... And yet all I feel is NO. What's wrong with me?

What I realized after lots of work was, that "NO" was truth. No, that's not right, no, that's not support, that's not what is good for me.

Thank you for this, Leonor. It is EXACTLY how I've always felt with my own Queen mom. It was so confusing for so long and you just spelled it all out.

[WinterStar]

That, or she's like my PDmom, and her version of "support" isn't actually support.

Bingo! She used to come over to "babysit the kids." Of course, she arrives late. She wants to chat while I'm trying to get ready to go. She has a bazillion questions about what might happen while I'm gone and how to handle it. She doesn't know how to find things in our house in order to cook, so we have to prepare a meal she will eat with the kids while we're gone. She doesn't like most food, so we have to try to jump through all the ever-changing dietary preferences. She makes incredibly stupid decisions. I would write out these really detailed explanations about the kids' routine to try to think of every eventuality so that she would know what to do. Then, she sent my daughter to school without a coat on a very cold day where she had an outdoor field trip. My list didn't say anything about my daughter putting on her coat. I mean, how could she have known that my daughter should have a coat? I had to leave the hospital where my husband was having surgery, go home, get the coat and take it to the school before the field trip bus left. My mom didn't want to load the other kids into her car and go the half mile to the school herself. Or walk it. Then, when I get back from wherever, she wants to tell me every. Single. Thing. That. Happened. While. I. Was. Gone. The kids ate x number of crackers and went outside for x amount of time. The debriefing takes longer than the amount of time it took her to babysit. Literally. Then, she wants to visit with me to make the trip worth the drive. By the time she's left, I'm completely worn down. And then she tells everybody that she helped me out babysitting and she's so glad to be able to offer me that kind of support. She never had that support when her kids were little.

[LavenderLime]

WinterStar - I totally get what you're saying! It feels much safer to stick to written communications where you can take your time in your response. I freeze up and forget my tools if I'm on the phone or worse, in person. And yeah, no way am I doing a video chat!I roll my eyes way too much and my face doesn't hide my true emotions LOL
My mother just tried something similar in person under the guise of wanting to "connect" with me since "we used to have such a good relationship" - um, no, we never really did, I just didn't have my own mind and life then. I felt myself tuning out, waiting for her to be done. Then she was crying, asking what she did so wrong - I stopped her and said we weren't going to do this, not going down this road again because it just goes around in circles.  I got up and changed the subject - luckily I had to go to the store to get her something, so I went and did that to get away.
Good luck! We're all here for you!

[Cat of the Canals]

Winterstar, my own PDmom loves to paint herself as Grandmother of the Year, but my brother confessed to me recently that she hasn't babysat for his kids in over a year. She and my dad live fifteen minutes away from my brother, and apparently the last several times they were supposed to watch the kids, they just never showed up and didn't answer the phone when he called.  SIL always feels obligated to say "but she does so much for us" when she dares to utter a complaint about my mom, but I'm wondering at this point what exactly she does for them???