mind reading

[tiredofsad]

My updh hates asking for anything.  So when I don't do whatever he was wishing, but never told me, that I would do, I usually find out by the silent treatment or an explosion of anger.  If I ask why he didn't just ask he will say, it's better if I don't have to ask.  Or, everybody would want that!  You must have know that's what I would want you to do!  That's how I found out he wants me to make breakfast for him every day.  Because his mom did that for his father so I should have known.  So now I do that really quick every morning so there will be no anger.  Except one day I forgot.  Maybe I was tired, I don't know.  He sat next to me for a little while.  I guess he was getting super angry and trying to magically make me know he wanted breakfast.  Finally after a few minutes, didn't seem like very long to me, I said, oh I haven't made you breakfast yet.  What would you like?  Then he exploded with anger that I had not gotten him his breakfast right away.  I was honestly bewildered and said why didn't you just remind me?  He said, that would be humiliating. 

Why would he feel that asking would be humiliating?  I do not understand.  I have made him breakfast every day for years, but  briefly forgetting that one time was humiliating for him.

[Cat of the Canals]

Humiliating is definitely an odd word for it. 

I read an article a while back about how there seem to be two types of people: those who prefer to be asked directly for things and those who think asking directly is rude and therefore prefer to have people "hint" at what they want.

Example: Askers want to hear, "Could you give me a ride to work on Thursday?" Whereas hinters prefer, "I don't have a ride on Thursday..."

The PDs in my life are definitely more on the hinting side... it makes me wonder if they were taught as children NOT to ask for things? And then as the PD progresses, it becomes an entitlement. "I shouldn't have to ask for things."

Anyway, your story reminded me of the time my dad bought a cherry pie for my grandmother's (PDmom's mom) birthday. It turned out she hates cherry pie, and even though my dad had no idea, PDmom was FURIOUS with him. They got into a huge fight over it. She still tells the story as if he should have known her mother hated cherry pie. 

[moglow]

Odd trains of thought there - he couldn't simply ask what you want for breakfast or offer to make it himself?? How's that humiliating?

With Christmas looming, this reminds me of one when my niece and nephew were young. Mommie dearest decided no "meal" on Christmas even rather snacky snacks whenever whoever was hungry. So the kids are in the kitchen with me, snacking on this or that as we're putting some things together. Mother EXPLODED that they were snacking when she'd just said that's what we were doing ... "I MEANT it's for LATER!" As if we were to somehow know what she meant or the fact that obviously the kids were hungry and why not give them something now?? Without another word she flipped off all the burners on the stove and stomped out!

It's like she had this vision of the "right way", never communicated it to anyone and just expected it to somehow happen. It would be different if we had a routine, traditions with her. Everyone was going on guesswork.

[GentleSoul]

Hello Tired of Sad

Sorry you got this going on.  Exhausting.

I share this in the hope it gives you comfort, my late uPD husband was that way too.  He NEVER said anything directly, he NEVER said what he wanted.

He wanted me to read his mind. Then when I didn't get it right or like in this instance, if I forgot, he would give very passively aggressively nasty.

Saying it is humiliating just strikes me as yet another way of playing the victim and manipulating.   

I now make a point of ignoring anything anyone hints that they want to me.  I feel if they have not got the good manners or maturity to politely ask for something directly, that is their problem not mine. 

I had been trained as a child by narc/alcoholic parents to jump to attention and immediately serve everyone.    I am overcoming this conditioning. 

[Associate of Daniel]

I'm sorry, Tiredofsad.

My uNPD exH would do the silent treatment. (A lot - and eventually it became permanent silent treatment).

When I'd ask what was wrong his answer was one of, "If you don't know what's wrong there's no point in me telling you." or "If I can't say something nice I won't say anything at all." or, "Nothing."  And then continued silent treatment.

It makes no sense - if you want something from someone but don't tell them, you end up not getting what you want.

But I guess pds need the attention and supply more than the specific thing they actually need.

As for the word "humiliating", my uNPD exH sometimes uses what I call big words.  They're words not usually in his vocabulary and he tends to throw them in, I guess to try to feel more intelligent than me? (And I'm not intellectually intelligent by any stretch.)

The trouble is, a lot of the time they're words that make no sense within the context he uses.  He obviously doesn't know the meaning of the words.  It's hard not to laugh at him on those occasions.

Regarding  getting your husband breakfast, I used to do that for uNpd ExH too.  He didn't show any appreciation or thanks for it.

I gently suggest that there are probably days that it is inconvenient for you to do it. You may be unwell or may have an early morning meeting.

How would your husband react if you were to inform him that you're unable to fix his breakfast on such occasions?

He's a grown up and is (should be) more than capable of getting his own breakfast.  He could even fix it for you occasionally too!

AOD

[SonofThunder]

Hello tiredofsad,

Having grown up with a uNPDf and a caretaker mother (i also recommend Fjelstads book on stopping caretaking), i want to suggest that your uPDh may use the word 'humiliating' related to his own disordered belief about his own masculinity and male 'role'.  At the same time, will recommend that the term 'projection' (see top 100 traits in the Personality Disorders tab at the top of the page) be considered as a double meaning in your husbands choice of words. 

My father, being PD self-focused would find it "humiliating" to his own PD image of his masculinity to need to ask his wife for his breakfast.  For your uPDh, having to ask or remind you may be hurtful to his PD self-pride because (projection), it rather should be "humiliating" for you forget....since he assumes himself to be the male lion of the home and his lioness should be serving him, not asking to be served.  What kind of 'king' needs to ask his servants to serve? 

SoT

[Simon]

Is there any reason that he can't get off his arse and make his own breakfast?
Or make you breakfast a few times a week?

I honestly can't think of anyone I know, male or female, who wouldn't pour the breakfast straight over their partners head if they were ever treated like that.

Don't know if you have kids, but if you do, would you be happy with them being treated that way by their partner?

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it sounds like something from the 1950's.
Next time he demands breakfast, give him the number of Uber Eats and leave him to it.

[SonofThunder]

Is there any reason that he can't get off his arse and make his own breakfast?
Or make you breakfast a few times a week?

I honestly can't think of anyone I know, male or female, who wouldn't pour the breakfast straight over their partners head if they were ever treated like that.

Don't know if you have kids, but if you do, would you be happy with them being treated that way by their partner?

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it sounds like something from the 1950's.
Next time he demands breakfast, give him the number of Uber Eats and leave him to it.

Simon,

I grew up in a PD/Caretaker home from the late 60's into the early 80's. My caretaking mother now at 80 years of age, still in 2021, gets up before the sun arises and makes my 84 year old uNPDf his breakfast, followed by his lunch and dinner...every-darn-day.  Sure, society through the 50's was pushing the 'supermom' mentality on women and that has changed a great deal in the last generations, but my mother is of that supermom generation and her parents and prior generations were in those roles carried forward from all prior. 

But, imo, tiredofsad, in her long-term marriage to her uPDh has potentially served him this way (in the FOG) for decades and his PD traits expect it... wash-rinse-repeat.  Stopping caretaking in these situations (i am a caretaking-ended male example, having now been married to my uPDw for 30 years, and caretaking for 20+ of those) is a careful and steady erosion, and especially with a potentially prideful PD male, who's PD-driven masculinity can erupt in very harsh ways, that are very stressful to endure. 

There are sure, effective ways to end caretaking and set new self-protective, strong boundaries, but imo, they are done carefully planned and carried out, to 'condition' the PD to a developing new normal, while at the same time, providing the non-PD spouse a less anger-drama filled living condition.  I understand your reply, but imo, if you have not lived it long-term, its difficult to comprehend and understand the dynamic thats been molded over the decades. 

Therefore i again recommend to tiredofsad, if shes choosing to remain married to her uPDh, a more gentle and manageable longer-term approach to ending caretaking, that first begins with a full understanding of the caretaking past FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) dynamic that exists and also a new out-of-the-FOG toolbox for eroding old ways into a new way of self protection and therefore more freedom from PD servitude.

Understanding the 'mind-reading' issue, which is the subject of this thread, is part of the continued education on the mentality of a PD,  that can be used well for planning and for proper and effective utilization of the Out of the FOG toolbox techniques while simultaneously working toward the conditioning of ending the caretaker role.   

SoT

[bloomie]

Why would he feel that asking would be humiliating?

Because having to 'ask' for something from you puts him in a step down position and recognizes your right to decline - your ownership of your time and energy - versus you snapping to attention and serving him reinforces his one up position, the effectiveness of his control by creating an atmosphere of risk, and his superiority in the balance of power in the relationship.

My two pennies...

[11JB68]

This whole thread is very relevant for me and I appreciate everyone's input on this!

[escapingman]

This is such a good thread and very validating for me.

My uNPDw is so so much of a mind reader expecting person. When it is something she expects, not asks for, but just expects, she turns silent and then suddenly snapped. When I ask what the problem is she normally answers "you should now that" and when I say I really don't know she answers "that is the problem, you should know what I need". This would then be followed by a big row (when I was still in the FOG) and silent treatment. She often have told me that I don't know how to treat a lady and she expects me to know what she needs in every moment, I told her that is impossible and she just need to tell me. She refuse though. I have other examples when this creates a big problem too, we used to fly with an airline and sat up front where all the drinks were free. I told her that after the first serving, if you want another drink you press the call button and they come and take the order, or else you wait and see if they come. This same thing happened every time, she never pressed the button, and after the flight complained about how thirsty she was and how bad the service on the plane was. After quite a few times me hammering it into her that she either order multiple drinks at first, or use the call button, she started to order multiple drinks at first and treated the crew with smugness as if she had beaten the system.

I have realised that our entire married life has been like this, she cannot tell me or anyone what she wants and then complain afterwards when she didn't get what she wanted. It is draining. 

[tiredofsad]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful replies.  This is really helpful to me.

SoT, yes, I think you are right about this dynamic.  It is a big thing with my husband about how he is the "head of household" , how much he does for us, how he deserves to be served first, he wants everyone to be waiting for him, at dinner time or if we are going somewhere, etc.

Bloomie, you are also right I think.  It hurts to think this is what is going on, but it makes sense.

My updh will go for long periods and be very nice about the breakfast thing (or just in general).  He will say thanks when I make it, how much he appreciates it, and if there is a day when I have to be gone early that is OK and not a problem.  Then out of the blue WHAMMO the above sort of thing will happen.  When it happened I did point out to him (this was before I had discovered this site) that I usually make him breakfast and why could he not cut me any slack for just forgetting this one time?  and that it seemed like no matter how much I did for him, he always assumed the absolute worst about my intentions.  Then he apologized.  Well, he sort of apologized and sort of excused himself by saying he was just really hungry that morning.  Then he was really nice for a while.  Until the next time something made him mad.

I tried to figure out how I got to this place, because it does sound really crazy to me when I write it down, like why would anyone put up with this?  My updh has always insisted that I am the problem with the marriage and I think I do have some fleas from childhood.  I read a book by an author I used to really like about improving your marriage.  It was all about how men have simple wants and if wives are just nice to them and make them food, etc. then marriages will be fine.  and problems are mostly because wives don't know how to treat husbands anymore.   So the insisting on breakfast thing seemed OK to me, like maybe I was being selfish by not really wanting to do that all the time.  I think I have a lot of trouble knowing when it is OK to say no and what is selfish vs. taking care of myself.

EM yes it is really draining. 

[SonofThunder]

Tiredofsad,

Im so glad to read that you are beginning to recognize that something is not right in your marriage dynamic.  I used to read all types of marriage improvement books prior to coming Out of the FOG, and realized they were useless to me, because im not dealing with two mentally healthy people in a marriage, in which most marriage book and improvement style/topics assume. 

I suggest you read Fjelstads 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist', and more than likely you will learn a great amount about yourself.  You will probably also recognize the marriage dynamic you have with your uPDh and my prediction is the book will open your eyes and mind in a very big way.  The book is available digitally (Kindle or other e-reader) if that helps you to read in private.  Not certain if its available as an audiobook.   

I agree fully with the dynamic you describe.  If your caretaking is to the PD's amount level and liking, your situation may stay calm, but slip up one time, and you will pay for your errors.  Over my decades of caretaking my uPDw, that was also my dynamic and my uPDw also enjoyed raising the bar.  So, just when i finally adjusted to the new expectations on service in some manner (to do's, income, possessions, house size, car brand and so on), her desires would change again and I had to readjust to keep the drama to a minimum and keep her social status on the way up.

As you stated from the beginning, the mind-reading game is just a way for your uPDh to keep you off balance, keep you working hard to serve, keep you confused and feed his need to feel like the king.  Imo, you will not be able to change him, but only change and protect yourself, which will require the Out of the FOG toolbox to deal with his reactions to not being able to control you and his strong manipulative attempts to get the dynamic back to where it was prior.  I can tell you its worth every effort you make to better protect and educate yourself. 

I wish you the best as you move forward and we will be here reading along and sharing in our journeys on the same trail that most of us walk here on Out of the FOG. 

SoT

[Lauren17]

Simon,

I grew up in a PD/Caretaker home from the late 60's into the early 80's. My caretaking mother now at 80 years of age, still in 2021, gets up before the sun arises and makes my 84 year old uNPDf his breakfast, followed by his lunch and dinner...every-darn-day.  Sure, society through the 50's was pushing the 'supermom' mentality on women and that has changed a great deal in the last generations, but my mother is of that supermom generation and her parents and prior generations were in those roles carried forward from all prior. 

[/quote]

SOT, thank you for describing this. No PDs in my FOO, but plenty of dysfunction. And my mom fell into the supermom role that you describe.  Those of us who were raised that way absorbed that dynamic as truth.
I remember young Lauren proudly stating she would never marry someone who spoke to her the way Dad spoke to Mom. And she didn't. The treatment was very much the same, just packaged differently.
All that to say, TiredofSad, please don't be too hard on yourself.  These things come along gradually and we don't always see them.
Seeing the situation for what it is, is the very first set to protecting yourself next. Learn as much as you can with the traits and toolbox and recommended books.

[Simon]

For those people commenting on my comment about the 50's, my late parents would be in their mid 80's if they were still alive, so they grew up in the same era, where women were supposedly meant to be at home, and the men were meant to be the bread-winner.

My Dad worked hard all his life to support 7 kids, and my Mum made a good home for us all, even when times were hard.
When us kids got older, my Mum also went out to work, and had more of a say in the money side of things. They evolved as time went on, and as things changed.
So, you could say that they conformed to that 50's mentality to start with, but moved with the times.

But as far as my original comment saying it's like something from the 50's, maybe I should clear it up a little.
In the 50's, as we've established, men were supposed to be the bread-winners, and women the home-makers, according to societal pressures.
In the 21st Century, such practices are less prominent, although they still happen to some degree, but it's more down to whose employed and whose not, etc, rather than societal.

But here's the difference, and it's what I was talking about.
In the 50's, the public accepted this as normal behaviour, and in the 21st Century, we don't accept gender stereotypes for the home.
So, when I say "It's like something from the 50's", I'm talking about how someone is still accepting this as normal behaviour.
But let's not forget that this is a Narcissistic Abuse forum, and in the OP's case, I'd say that just accepting being treated like that as a normality, because of their age and "the way things used to be when they were younger" is just enabling the OP's abusive behaviour.

Shouldn't this forum's members point out that abusive behaviour is wrong, without exception?
Maybe the OP is too long in the tooth to change, or too exhausted to fight after so long.
Fair enough.
But let's not pretend it's not abuse, regardless of what decade it came from.

And let's not normalize it, for fear of setting a bad example for anyone new here, looking for a moral compass to help them out of their abuse.
I recently found out that this old guy who I used to live next door to used to physically hit his wife, all the time.
I had no idea.
I used to talk to him over the garden fence about all sorts, all the time, for years.
If I'd known, I wouldn't have given him the time of day.

Abuse grows in the dark, and withers in the light, so I'll always call it what it is when I see it/hear it.
Sorry if it ruffles some feathers, but going back to the OP's story, does anyone really think it's OK to demand your breakfast (without actually saying anything, but through fear from past times breakfast wasn't cooked for him), or face the rage and abuse?
I don't care what age someone is, what background they're from, or what planet they're from, that's abuse.
It may not sit comfortably with you, but you know it's true.

[SonofThunder]

Simon,

In my opinion, the mind reading that tiredofsad described, is both a manipulative-to-control trait of a PD and also a conditioned reaction of a PD to a groomed caretaker.  It takes both imo, for that virus of a PD dynamic to continue to thrive and imo, both are at fault for it thriving (the 50% rule here at Out of the FOG). 

Societal expectations of family and religious teachings, then compounded by developing technology media pressures (print, radio and then television) of that time period, helped to further normalize these behaviors in the larger public realm, where they had previously been normalized in tighter social circles of the home, extended family, church, school and other local gatherings.  Imo, the new media pressures of 'Supermom' coupled with what it meant to be a proud husband, father, and masculine man  in general, exacerbated the situation.  In addition, parents also felt pressures to raise kids to conform to the new media pressures of these expectations which transferred these roles on once again by conditioning in the home. 

To those living in these conditions back in that time period, it was normal imo, and i have personally interviewed my living relatives on my mothers side of the family, because i was interested in an investigation not into the development of a PD, but in the development of a caretaker.  Its already well documented regarding PD's and mental underdevelopment as a child, but how a caretaker mentality develops, not so much. 

Frankly, i find it naturally brilliant and carefully selective, how a PD (male or female) inherently seeks out the perfect caretaking-trained target spouse, love-bombs them in with a facade (like a fish to a lure), locks them in tight with a marriage contract and kids right out of the gate, and then flips the personality switch to begin PD-feeding heavily on the caretaker they creatively reeled in. 

I personally do no believe any Out of the FOG member is normalizing these behaviors and not calling them emotional abuses.  Out of the FOG exists for these purposes and members come here mostly to explore and have camaraderie with others in abusive situations.   

Again, imo the mind-reading expectation is an emotionally abusive trait of a PD that has been conditioned to thrive by a caretaker.  The PD though, exploits the caretakers traits and continues to raise the expectation bar, until the caretaker physically and/or mentally exhausts their own energy supply and the red flag of a potential problem raises its head in the caretaker, resulting in "welcome new member, to Out of the FOG"...

When a caretaker learns to stop caretaking, the feed supply of the PD starts to dwindle and the caretaker begins transitioning from caretaking to self-care and self-protection, while the PD goes into an internal panic mode. 

Mind reading expectations will eventually fizzle out once the supply is cut off and then the non better be well prepared for attempted covert manipulative PD punishment for their own self-control.  The toolbox is the answer for the non, while they figure out what their life is going to look like going forward, for themselves and their children. 

SoT

[square]

My take is that the PD will leverage anything and everything to theur favor.

A male NPD will happily use all social norms, past or present, to enforce servitude. If times change, they would not; why would they?

A female NPD will use other social constructs at her disposal.

The social norms are just a tool, nothing more.

PD parents use other constructs. Thinking of my MIL, she will talk how things were done "in her generation" to justify how she expects her adult children to behave toward her. While I believe she genuinely believes it, it's horsepucky. My parents are the same age. I have friends from the same generation. They don't have the same ideas as MIL.

But it's VERY effective. We buy it. Very confusing.

[Kat54]

It's so interesting to see this thread. My uPD ex was so good at this. My kids and I always had to be reading his mind. It was definitely a form of manipulation and control.
It was one of the many break downs of communication with our marriage. All I could think of, it was mind boggling.

[Dollydrops]

Its interesting to read this thread.
I've had all the mind reading issues too in my time. It takes me back to my late in laws. MIL did absolutely everything in their home and when her H was made redundant she took a job in the afternoons to help with finances too. She was never allowed to make friends there.  She looked worn out every day. When I suggested she leave him a few small chores to do whilst she was at work she looked at me with pure dread.
I mentioned it again with him present and suggested maybe he could peel the potatoes and bring the washing in.
He did those two things every day afterwards and gloated about it as though he was giving her the world.
MIL after that began talking more to me about her life with him and in short she was just a slave really who daren't say a word or put a foot wrong.
Needless to say I inherited their son who had learned a lot of his behaviour.
I know now that a lot of it is their 'right of entitlement'. Just like mother did everything for dad, they only expect you to see to their needs and never even understand that you may have needs yourself.

My own H was told by me  before he retired early that under no circumstances was I going to accept him sitting on his arse all day whilst I exhausted myself keeping home as well as my job. I left him lists every morning and told him it was his 'new job' and that life would be much calmer if we could both sit down after supper knowing that we'd both done our share.
I can't think of anyone in this day and age who still needs someone to do everything for him unless he is paraplegic.
Just a suggestion as simple as 'it really helps if you get your own breakfast whilst I'm busy' may help. If he refuses after that then he deserves to go hungry.

[Poison Ivy]

My ex-husband seems to think that it is humiliating to ask for help and even to accept help in certain situations. One time, our car got stuck in a snowbank, a passerby offered to dislodge the car, and I could see and hear my ex's emotional struggle, as I encouraged and reassured him that it was fine to accept the assistance. I think my ex feels a conflict between liking to be taken care of and believing that as a man, he should be able to do certain tasks (such as getting a car unstuck).