Hiding money when your spouse watches everything

[Prototypian]

My uOCPDw has multiple credit detecting systems in play monitoring our lives.   It's not specifically to monitor me but just because she trusts nothing.   She controls everything even though I do all the work for finances.   We make plenty of money through my jobs and my companies.   House is paid off.  I cant make transactions without her knowledge.  She even handles all the retirement accounts and has had them in money markets for years because she is always "going to decide where to put the money in different funds"   this despite the fact that I work in applied math in forecasting and investing.   But the fear and lack of trust extends to day to day life.   I pulled 20 USD out of the bank to give my son for something related to his team pooling money to buy their coach a gift card and before I even pulled out of the bank parking lot she called to see if I had pulled money and why.   She sees every transaction even taking the kids out for ice cream.   I don't control anything; no credit cards other than my business travel card and I don't even know the login codes for our banking or funds.   She is so over controlling that I know within seconds of me opening a bank account I would get a million questions.  I had to set up Paypal to make some ebay purchases for my vintage car and that was a fun inquisition by her.

I'm asking because I own a second home nearby that is almost finished. It's been almost finished for years.  My father helped.me.a little with the construction.   It was a renovation of a cottage.  My spouse hates it because it was done as a reno by my family when I had a mental breakdown from her.   There are still multi thousand dollars to go with the AC unit, some cabinets and finishing things out.   But my spouse watches everything and suspects everything.   What are some.optioms.for.me?

[square]

Do you ever do the grocery shopping or pick up household basics at Walmart or the like? You could pick up $10 gift cards each time you shop, and let them add up.

If she demands the receipt for your shops, how do you feel about drawing the line on that? To say you will not be providing them anymore. That you will be throwing them all away now.

I understand she will flip out about this. But how do you feel about it?

You are paid by direct deposit, I assume. I once had a job that allowed me to split my direct deposit into two accounts - I put a flat amount into a savings account and the rest in checking. What if next time you get a raise, you don't tell her (or say this year the bastards are being tight) and divert the raise to your secret account?

Similarly, even without a raise what if you diverted a small amount now, even $50 a paycheck. If she asks, tell her they have changed the withholding amount or something.

Is there any item you could argue is cash only? For example, in my town the hairdresser doesn't take credit cards, and there is a liquor store that doesn't either. Maybe you found an indie coffee place near work. If you like a coffee every day then you're taking $30 cash out a week, every week. You need the coffee to work so you don't lose your job.

I wish she could grasp how abusive it is that you do not have access to the money you earned.

[square]

I wonder if there is a way you can leverage purchases for vintage car parts.

Tell us, where miggt you have any discretionary spending, like with car restoration? I know she asks you but I'm assuming she """"let""" (ughhhhh) you have the items even if she freaked about the PayPal account.

Another idea, maybe talk to a banker. Tell the banker the problem. I have no idea if they could originate a cash loan for you using paid off collateral you own. I do see problems here, of course - like if they mail something about it.

Sorry, my ideas probably stink, just trying to brainstorm. Maybe it'll help you think of an idea, though.

It's hard for us to know where you have any wiggle room.

Um, what about selling the vintage car Or something else. And tell her you're buying another car to fix up with the proceeds. And just keep putting her off - "the one I was going to buy fell through. Looking at another one now."

I dunno.

[square]

Sorry for spamming your thread. But what is tge game plan? Let's say, hey presto, you got your money. What then?

[notrightinthehead]

You can make a lot of plans to deal with such an unbalanced set-up but ultimately you will have to decide if you want to continue to allow her to treat you like an incapable minor or if you stand up to her.  You will have to accept that you have enabled her behaviour and that she stands on your shoulders - that's what gives her control over you.  Only if you decide to take back control and face her rage and behave like an adult would - have their own account, refuse to explain why they draw 20$,  make their own decision and stand by them - will there be any change.  As long as you behave as you have until now,  all will remain the same.

[escapingman]

I have had the exact same with my STBX uPDw, she has scrutinised every purchase, every receipt, every cash withdrawal. In the end I just had enough and cancelled the paper statements and cut her out from seeing my transactions. I also got a new credit card she has nothing to do with. First she moaned about it and assumed I am doing something dodgy. She probably still think that but I don't care.

Take control of your life, it's worth it!

Good luck!

[Poison Ivy]

I strongly recommend that you (1) not set up hidden accounts and (2) work on becoming comfortable with responding to her questions. Here are some sample responses:
"Yes, I spent money."
"Yes, I withdrew money."
"I wanted to buy something, and I did so."
If you ever get a divorce, you will have to reveal all assets, and hidden accounts (even ones set up because of irrational questions from a disordered spouse) will raise issues for you that you likely will have difficulty defending.

[Lauren17]

I've been down this path and I've used most of the advice posted, even though some seems to contradict others.
I stopped asking for permission to spend small amounts. If I was questioned, I gave a short, straight answer, then didn't engage in the drama. eg. "I gave son $20 for ice cream" end of discussion.
I looked for wiggle room in our money habits. For me, credit cards were watched, but a set amount of cash each week wasn't. I also did the extra cash back feature when using credit cards at places like the grocery store.  I set aside $20 here and there over several months until I had enough to open up a secret account, plus a credit card. (I checked with my lawyer before opening this account)
I respectfully asked for a tour of our finances along with login info. What if something happens to spouse? How would I pay bills? 
Also, you'll need all the info if/when you file for divorce. I spent months tracking finances so I knew exactly what was what before I filed.

[Poison Ivy]

 

[Prototypian]

Thanks all, I don't care about assets or her taking half and out kids all have large 529 (US college savings accounts) to pay for college and we only have one kid at home and she is 16 anyway.   "Alimony" isn't something that hurts me as half enough is still enough.   I'm fortunate and blessed to be where I am financially and to provide for my family.   The house we live in is paid off, the cottage in downtown nearby is paid off but isn't finished being renovated again because she controls so much.   I don't believe her OCPD behavior is about controlling me specifically; it's about the irrational fear of something being wrong.   We have bank stuff going back over 25 years; every single check (who uses checks anymore), every statement, every single mutual fund statement prospectus and even the annual instructions for every tax document including the ones that say "this page intentionally left blank".   Her control over me is horrible all encompassing fear of something, anything being wrong.   

I guess there is no way to get the control of any of the money secretly.   Her fear and distrust of all things has made her extremely vigilant on every front financially.   She uses an online budgeting system that she will spend hours and hours reconciling every US penny and even comparing things bought at the grocery to ensure that one item isn't more than another on sale elsewhere.   I can't just buy a set of things at Home Depot, I have to go throught he receipt with her line by line so that she can categorize the info.  Which is strange because one of the companies I started and sold specifically dealt with AI for interpreting that type of things on travel receipts automatically for larger companies.   

But back to my issue.  I suppose it's just being willing to deal with the rage.   It's just a scary thing because of just how unbelievably violent and fast it launches and how much it has to override anything going on.   I've had her completely interrupt business calls I was in at home in an angry rage because broken glass was in the trash and she was demanding to know right then what had broken (answer, a picture frame of the district cross country of the year runner certificate given to my son who didn't care but man was mwly wife despondent about it). I was once sitting with my mother outside having coffee and my spouse found that I had moved a pile of things from the kitchen table to the bedroom tontrynand make the space look nicer and she came out so furious that my mother thanked me and cut her visit short because my wife was so enraged.   It's purely a fear thing for me.   The anger is hair trigger and so fast and willing to break all norms and boundaries of things that you can't believe are upsetting.   One of us loading our own laundry and it appearing that the washer is overfull for our own clothes can spark a violent explosion.   

I promise I'm not here because I haven't tried things and wanted this to stop.  Being a victim is never something I wanted.  I never saw this growing the way that it did and it wasnt until about 5 - 6 years ago that I realized this wasn't normal.

[Poison Ivy]

Divorce is easier when the couple no longer has (or never had) minor children. I encourage you to prepare for ending the marriage by the time your youngest turns 18.

[Prototypian]

Thanks PI.  I don't know much about divorce.   Our youngest is a sophomore going on junior (US) and her siblings are either just starting college or nearly finished.   I'm not sure the ramifications of that; our second home is literally 4 miles from the primary home and the youngest has a car, college fund already set up and although a minor and living at home has a pretty good social circle with track and cross country (her two older siblings both ran on the same teams and wound up running in large colleges as recruited athletes and she has similar plans although nothing is certain) and she is in FFA which is the US farming and veterinary science program for high school kids where she raises a livestock animal each year.   The kids are well grounded although both girls have depression and anxiety similar to their mother.   

[Poison Ivy]

IMO, you and your children will be better off mentally and physically if you divorce your spouse.

[square]

Here's one thing to consider.

From your descriptions, she blows to 1000+ on a scale of 1-10 for $20 withdrawn, a broken item thrown away, glasses unpacked and placed in a cabinet.

It's almost like you may as well go whole hog and open a new credit card, paperless statements sent to private email, you utterly refuse to budge on it.

I KNOW this will cause her to explode. But from where I'm sitting, how much worse can she even go? You get this for moving a magazine. You can solve your problems for about the same cost as moving a magazine.

That's how I'm seeing it anyway.

[square]

Btw, I do understand the fear. My situation is less volatile than yours but there are times when my nervous system just can't take ONE MORE THING. Like, I'd just break at the idea of one more angry look much less the 24 hour rages that used to happen.

You left for a while. Did you have any degree of relief or healing when you were away? Or did it feel like just a pause, knowing you'd be back in hell soon enough anyway?

[JustKeepTrying]

jsinjin,

my xOCPDh was the same.  I needed to keep receipts for cash for a banana.  I had to file a .29 receipt for a banana and then justify to him why I bought it.  There was a whole folder - it was a whole thing.  I remember one time I was so hungry I scrounged the change from the floor of the car for .99 fries and then made sure I threw away the evidence,  Amazing what we end up doing to keep the peace.

I did all of the above except for the credit card.  I mostly relied on cashback on grocery purchases over 50 because it was easier to hide it there.  Less chance of it being itemized.  I did the gift card thing and still use them today.  When I stood up to him to justify house purchases, he would sometimes back off.  But negotiating never happened.

But mostly I want to say that you need to sit with yourself and ask what is the end game?  What do you want in the end?  If the house will be done soon then are planning on filing?  Or will this be a two-house family?  What do you really want and need?  Ask yourself and the other answers will appear.

[SonofThunder]

Jsinjin,

I have always flowed all the monies I earn through my own personal bank account and I transfer a portion to a joint account, in order to pay for our joint living expenses.  My uPDw is not a signer on my personal account but I set her up as a beneficiary on my own account, in case I take a dirt nap, as I dont desire the monies to be legally locked up in bank limbo waiting for the courts to settle a will. 

You wrote:  "We make plenty of money through my jobs and my companies."

Is your uOCPDw a legal partner in your owned companies?   Are your 'jobs' a part of outside employment (outside your own companies) or jobs within your own companies? 

My uPDw is not a legal partner in my company (im self employed), but if she was, i would be willing to split our monthly income needs first into two individually owned separate checking accounts and then we each contribute an equal share into a joint owned bank account that pays all the marital related bills.  Whatever remains in the individual accounts in full control by the individual who owns the account.   

This would also advance-simulate my living in a divorced state, as where I reside, my assets would be split 50/50 as 'fault' of divorce is not a factor.  If i currently did not have this separate account structure, then it would surely be a PD drama struggle to make it this way, but it would be surely legally do-able.  It would require a heavy lift of the toolbox.   

Is this legally do-able for you to now have two separate bank accounts and a third 'joint' account in which you each contribute equal share.  The joint account management could be managed (although legally structured 50/50) by one person or by both, whichever is less drama.

SoT

[Prototypian]

SOT:

We have never had anything but a combined asset joint single account.  The companies i helped start were incorporated and owned by different shareholders and my spouse was never an owner but I have always put all of the money into just the "bank account".   When we bought our first house in 1994 we just bought it and paid for it.   We moved a few times.   Through that we always just had a bank account; the same one we have always had as a credit union she had with her original first job out of college.   We have retirement accounts all over the place because her life is basically "worst case scenario" so none have ever been consolidated or tied back into rollovers: "what if something bad happens and the IRA crashes etc."


As far as money; she knows everything in all the money, when bonuses are paid for everything, how much they are, exactly what direct deposit is going, how much from every paycheck goes into retirement account, how much goes to healthcare, exact dates and she has the login access to everything at my job work for the entirety of the finances.   She does work but chose a job that pays below minimum wage because the job offers the flexibility to be away at will for political stuff which is the entirety of her life.   She is a local.politifian.   life has been local politics since the day we were married.   Just after our honeymoon she began attending city council and planning and zoning meeting and has had roles since that day.  None of these are paid and the current role she has as an elected official is probably 80 plus hours per week as she never misses a single meeting with any consituttients, local events, breakfasts, lunches, strategy meetings or state and federal advocacy.   This has been the primary source of anger and dedication that she has had over the years as that side of life is a crusade.

TO ALL OF YOU!!!   Thank you for your heartfelt suggestions and advice.  I do not take the advice lightly and I am not trying to create "black and white" thinking unwinnable situations.

I have been doing a lot of thinking as this recent event is the second time in 5 years where potential self harm has been involved and the uOCPD spouse has not been concerned about that event.   I believe I have a perfect storm of being a person with a deep desire to forgive and to smoothe things out without any challenge and just hope everyone gets along without conflict and that has let this continue without end.

I have been giving a lot of thought to what I want and I know it's always a give and take in a marriage as you can't be simply selfish.   But I never wanted to tie myself to a single community; I wanted to take trips, live different places, travel, build things, give to charity and learn new skills and hobbies.   Deep down I don't care at all about the upset people at the school board meeting because it isn't my mission or values in life to do so.  I earned my degrees because I loved my subjects and I've spent most of my life now doing what she wanted for her crusades.   It's easy to say I don't care about money because I have enough for life to not have crises about money but barring a severe injury I can work from anywhere and support my family financially.   I used to not care what she did since she doesn't run up debt or mismanage things but when an air conditioning filter purchase is a set of questions at a deep level about why and how I made a decision and my time in my collection of jobs is worth more per minute than the cost of the filters, it's just time to put a stop to this.

To answer all, the reason I have not set up my own cards, bank account or anything else is because I have not wanted to fight with her in loud violent arguments.   I do have the wherewithall to do it.  I do make all the money in the house or are least 99 percent of it.  Giving away half or 60 or even 80 percent of it to her would not leave me without a roof, a way to earn plenty of money, capsbility feed myself and have transportation and the ability to work.  I have just been scared of dealing with her and I have difficulty fighting because I don't have time in many cases to stop what I am doing and deal with her rage and questions. 

She does control everything financially now.  And she does so with a lot of controls on place including alerts that are automated on her phone, credit monitoring systems that are paid for and better than free ones and routine checks of banking and accounts.   She doesn't let any details go and will chase down anything that doesn't add up immediately and should be categorized so if I do something financial it has to be an all in type of approach.

Thank you all for your suggestions and support

[IsleOfSong]

You sound like a great guy — a hard worker, very grounded and self-aware. And that cottage sounds terrific.

Also, your wife is a controlling, disordered nutjob. You say she's suspicious about the money and it's not necessarily about you, but she also goes crazy if there's a piece of broken glass in the trash that she doesn't know about. And the thing with her interrupting your work call? Completely unacceptable, and you know it.

I get the fear of upsetting the apple cart — hell, I'm in my own version of this with a controlling, hypercritical, thin-skinned wife who's turned me and our son into people who do the most basic of things in private so as not to get told how we're doing it wrong. But we need to stop the slow erosion of our souls by people like this.

I suggest you have a frank talk with your wife and tell her that you will be spending money wisely and as you see fit ,and will not engage in justifying or defending any purchases you make. When she bitches about it, tell her she needs to do something about her rotten behavior and suggest that she gets into therapy to deal with her unacceptable control issues and anger. We get in life what we tolerate, so stop tolerating your wife's tyrannical bullshit.

If she's already mad about everything, what are you protecting by not speaking up? She may not change, but YOU will just by confronting her. Good luck.

[Poison Ivy]