Convinced hes "so ill" - no-one can tell him different

[p123]

Visited him last night and think I did well.

He brought up the Social Services visits hes cancelled. Basically wanted me to agree with him. I told him "Its up to you, I can't tell you what to do can I?" and changed the subject. It felt good.

He go on to say that "But they might charge me for the visit?". Which is always the bottom line with Dad - hes terrified he'll have to spend money its insane. (even though hes been told this is a free service).

I found out Social Services have even offered to do an application for him to see if he can get funded care (I dont think he can but might as well). His answer - nope and hes NEVER EVER paying to care.

Pretty sure he expected me to say "Aw OK Dad I'll look after you if ever need dressing, feeding, and washing. I'll quit my job, leave my wife and kids and come and live with you".

Nope I told him if he couldn't look after himself, don't expect me to do it because the answer is no. If he decides not to pay when hes in the predicament then I'm pretty sure Social Services will take the matter out of his hands anyway. So better to sort it all out now just in case, but if he doesnt want to then its his decision.

Hes not happy.

I feel really good....

[Seven]

Good on you. It's freeing isn't it?  Seeing their sour face when you set boundaries or not tell the, what the expect to hear.

[moglow]

He go on to say that "But they might charge me for the visit?"

Gray rock: I don't know, dad. You'd have to ask them. [change of subject]

"But what if I need ..." I don't know, dad, you'd have to ask them. That's what they do.

My best advise is never ever say you will or won't do xyz, don't volunteer information or your opinions. That's something to be challenged. As my brother says, he can't get your goat if he doesn't know where it is. It's time to move your goat. 

[p123]

Good on you. It's freeing isn't it?  Seeing their sour face when you set boundaries or not tell the, what the expect to hear.

Yes definitely. Im happy now with myself if that makes sense. I've tried to help him sort out care and hes refused so what more can I do.
If it becomes a real emergency in future then hes made his bed now.

[p123]

He go on to say that "But they might charge me for the visit?"

Gray rock: I don't know, dad. You'd have to ask them. [change of subject]

"But what if I need ..." I don't know, dad, you'd have to ask them. That's what they do.

My best advise is never ever say you will or won't do xyz, don't volunteer information or your opinions. That's something to be challenged. As my brother says, he can't get your goat if he doesn't know where it is. It's time to move your goat. 

Like that one about the goat. Yes its working with him - well for me anyway. Hes not taking a blind bit of notice and carrying on as normal.....

After this I had the extreme love bombing. "Oh you're so good to me", "What would I do without you", "Come and give me a hug".

Nope you still arent completely switching off and think I'm going to rescue you when this all goes wrong.  Its not happening because its now ALL your fault.

[nanotech]

Visited him last night and think I did well.

He brought up the Social Services visits hes cancelled. Basically wanted me to agree with him. I told him "Its up to you, I can't tell you what to do can I?" and changed the subject. It felt good.

He go on to say that "But they might charge me for the visit?". Which is always the bottom line with Dad - hes terrified he'll have to spend money its insane. (even though hes been told this is a free service).

I found out Social Services have even offered to do an application for him to see if he can get funded care (I dont think he can but might as well). His answer - nope and hes NEVER EVER paying to care.

Pretty sure he expected me to say "Aw OK Dad I'll look after you if ever need dressing, feeding, and washing. I'll quit my job, leave my wife and kids and come and live with you".

Nope I told him if he couldn't look after himself, don't expect me to do it because the answer is no. If he decides not to pay when hes in the predicament then I'm pretty sure Social Services will take the matter out of his hands anyway. So better to sort it all out now just in case, but if he doesnt want to then its his decision.

Hes not happy.

I feel really good....

Yay! Love the last line of this quote!
It's so empowering  and gratifying when we just don't accept the problem as ours, so that they can begin moving goalposts, gaslighting us  and generally messing with our head.
It isn't and it never was. None of these issues are.
My dad is just the same about not spending money. His dentist had recently stopped treating NHS patients. He's had a letter about it. He can easily afford private dental care, or he can change dentists. His issue is that he doesn't know what's covered by their dental health plan, and anyway he won't be setting up a direct debit ; ' I'm NEVER doing THAT because of  fraudsters and scammers!'
So he waits for me to solve it!   
His entitled brain is like- 'Cmon Nano, now's the time to play your role for me! '
 

Nope. 
I simply suggested he ring the dentist for advice. No advice coming from me, not any more.

[p123]

Nano - Oh yes. I think all of us would be willing to help our parents if we can....

BUT, like you're Dad, I've realised if he won't listen, makes stupid decisions, then makes the situation a complete nightmare why should I then give up my life when it could all have been avoided? I've told him and told him.

BUT he wants the world to work the way he wants it. Free healthcare because "I paid my taxes" and his sons to come running when he wants them to. Because thats how people are supposed to do things in his eyes.

I give up now. Hes getting worse with not spending money too - hes obsessed with it now. Oh well what can we do?

[nanotech]

Nano - Oh yes. I think all of us would be willing to help our parents if we can....

BUT, like you're Dad, I've realised if he won't listen, makes stupid decisions, then makes the situation a complete nightmare why should I then give up my life when it could all have been avoided? I've told him and told him.

BUT he wants the world to work the way he wants it. Free healthcare because "I paid my taxes" and his sons to come running when he wants them to. Because thats how people are supposed to do things in his eyes.

I give up now. Hes getting worse with not spending money too - hes obsessed with it now. Oh well what can we do?

Yup you're so right.  My dad told me that the dental plan said it included 'inspections and hygiene treatments.'
Then he asked ME if it would include fillings/ root canals.... etc.

Um well no, At £20 per month, likely not.  But to my dad, I had to say,
' I don't know, ring them and ask.'
As far as opinions on his health and life choices go, these days, I'm Switzerland.

My dad, unlike yours is ok on the phone.  Easier for me on this point - your dad cites hearing loss then does nothing to resolve it. He wants you to make the phonecalls.
I'd love to help my dad join the dental plan, or find a new NHSdentist.
I can't do either of these things-  because then it becomes my decision I imposed upon him, and then down the line it becomes my fault when he inevitably finds something to complain about.
So they actually end up worse off than non PD parents!

[p123]

Nano - Oh yes. I think all of us would be willing to help our parents if we can....

BUT, like you're Dad, I've realised if he won't listen, makes stupid decisions, then makes the situation a complete nightmare why should I then give up my life when it could all have been avoided? I've told him and told him.

BUT he wants the world to work the way he wants it. Free healthcare because "I paid my taxes" and his sons to come running when he wants them to. Because thats how people are supposed to do things in his eyes.

I give up now. Hes getting worse with not spending money too - hes obsessed with it now. Oh well what can we do?

Yup you're so right.  My dad told me that the dental plan said it included 'inspections and hygiene treatments.'
Then he asked ME if it would include fillings/ root canals.... etc.

Um well no, At £20 per month, likely not.  But to my dad, I had to say,
' I don't know, ring them and ask.'
As far as opinions on his health and life choices go, these days, I'm Switzerland.

My dad, unlike yours is ok on the phone.  Easier for me on this point - your dad cites hearing loss then does nothing to resolve it. He wants you to make the phonecalls.
I'd love to help my dad join the dental plan, or find a new NHSdentist.
I can't do either of these things-  because then it becomes my decision I imposed upon him, and then down the line it becomes my fault when he inevitably finds something to complain about.
So they actually end up worse off than non PD parents!

Ha ha I get handed letter from the bank with, in big letter, changes to terms and conditions. And then he asks me whats the letter about? Eh?

The phone thing with Dad is crazy. I talked into an appt to get a new one - it must have played on his mind. He got the special phone (never left the box before) and said I dont need it now ive got that phone. LAst week - hes back to "I'm no good on the phone I can't hear". OMG - help yourself a little bit!

Well aware though if he had perfect hearing it'd be "I get flustered on the phone"... Can';t win.

Part of the reason why my wife doesn't speak to him is shes a Nurse. He would badger her with questions and say how he disagreed with what the consultant had said. She got sick of saying "you'll have to speak to the consultant". Next time she visisted he'd badger her again!

[bee well]

P123,

I am sorry your Dad continues on in this way.

You have been doing your best. In my opinion, there's nothing more you can do but to keep on doing that. If you feel that you stumble, pick up again and keep working on it.

The circularity of it all is frustrating, and it's hard to realize there's not much you can do about certain behaviours of his, other than to help reasonably as long as it does not bring you harm, and to also protect yourself and your chosen family.

I find that to be a challenge in certain situations with my DH's family. It hasn't gotten to the level you describe but there are parallels with the manipulation and the crazy making. I read your post and think about what we could be facing in the future.

You wrote: "... I've realised if he won't listen, makes stupid decisions, then makes the situation a complete nightmare why should I then give up my life when it could all have been avoided? I've told him and told him."

He's your Dad and you care about him but you were not born with a job. You are not obligated to give up your life for him or anyone else.

I see a lot of solid feedback you have gotten from the others, I think a lot of us reading could learn from what has been written on this thread, including myself.

Please keep taking care of you first. You will get through this.

[p123]

Thanks BeeWell......

Oh many times Dad has said to me "Well I looked after you when you were young, so its my turn now, and you're family need to understand this".

Which is crazy indeed.... Basically, he wants me to ditch my family and put him first. I remember one xmas day he was in hospital and he wanted me to visit 9am. I said whoa let me open presents with the kids first - his answer "There'll be other xmases for the kids, this year I need you".

No reason for me to be there 9am at all of course he just wanted me to be.

I think thats always been the hardest for me. Hes my Dad - I dont want to abandon him. It takes a lot until you finally see it.
Now I KNOW I can't help him or do what he wants. Only way would be to quit my job, leave my wife and kids and move in with him if I'm honest.

[p123]

I rant a lot on here - a lot of it is anger with me - at him!!!!

I see other grandparents doting over his grandchildren. He hasn't see my kids in years and hes not bothered AT ALL . He is so focused on what he needs me to do for him they're just an annoyance to him that take my attention away from him. This annoys me MASSIVELY.

Then I see him not listening to doctors, not listening to ANYONE.  I see him basically acting like a baby - there are people dying of cancer who make less of a fuss than he does. This is the man-baby who swears he can't make it through the weekend because his hayfever is so bad.
Then expecting me to pick up the pieces. Thats the same.

Being the world cheapest person. Hes got £1000s in the bank but hes obsessed with not spending any of it. For no reasdn at all it seems. So he goes without things that could help him etc - again I'm supposed to pick up the pieces here.

Probably the worse is its all about him. I tell him I've got other people who rely on me too. Nope couldn't give a monkeys. That annoys me the most.

[bee well]

Hey p123,

It's understandable you would want to come back  and write more. You've got a lot to get out of your system, with what you are dealing with. The important thing is that it helps to express it here. I hope it does.

The self centeredness of it all if mindboggling. A common theme on these boards are the fuzzy or confused roles. A lot of children seem to be doing a lot more worrying about their parents than vice versa. Of course it's natural that we help our parents as they age, but we are talking about something else entirely.

Oh, and that going without/scarcity mentality sounds familiar too. I watch my ILs who would rather wait and endure sickness (or so it appears) than to pay for a private exam. and it's not like that would mean doing without in other areas.

Of course it's all about him. If your Dad is anything like some of the people that have brought me into this forum, he rarely if ever sees things from points of view other than his own. I don't know him, but some people are not just capable of doing that. That doesn't justify or excuse it, but that's how they are.

Too bad for him that he isn't enjoying his Grandkids the way he could. He's missing out.

[p123]

Hey p123,

It's understandable you would want to come back  and write more. You've got a lot to get out of your system, with what you are dealing with. The important thing is that it helps to express it here. I hope it does.

The self centeredness of it all if mindboggling. A common theme on these boards are the fuzzy or confused roles. A lot of children seem to be doing a lot more worrying about their parents than vice versa. Of course it's natural that we help our parents as they age, but we are talking about something else entirely.

Oh, and that going without/scarcity mentality sounds familiar too. I watch my ILs who would rather wait and endure sickness (or so it appears) than to pay for a private exam. and it's not like that would mean doing without in other areas.

Of course it's all about him. If your Dad is anything like some of the people that have brought me into this forum, he rarely if ever sees things from points of view other than his own. I don't know him, but some people are not just capable of doing that. That doesn't justify or excuse it, but that's how they are.

Too bad for him that he isn't enjoying his Grandkids the way he could. He's missing out.

One positive out of it all - I know Im not going to be like that at his age....

[Starboard Song]

One positive out of it all - I know Im not going to be like that at his age....

We think about that a lot. I suspect we all struggle to understand late-onset personality challenges, and are all more susceptible than we think.

That's why I so often emphasize Radical Acceptance: if we are constantly outraged about the behavior of others now, we are likely to stay that way, even when their behavior doesn't warrant it. We each deserve and need the personal strength that shields us from unwarranted demands and opinions of others. We deserve and need the strength of boundaries that don't just stop us from DOING, but also shield us effectively from the emotional damage.

Years of outrage, dismay, shock, and spitting into the wind can leave us vigilant and hurt, with a loss in our native humility and flexibility. And this can happen as our bodies and minds start to make us unhappy with our place in the world.

I encourage all of us to start the project now, to ensure we are our strongest when we need it most.

[Poison Ivy]

 

[p123]

Im away this weekend. Spain for the weekend.
Visiting Dad tonight. Tempted to not even tell him  to be honest. But he'll work it out when I don't call him.

I just know what will happen:-

- "Oh you've only just started work at that place they won't be happy with you taking time off" - How many times have I told him its my client NOT my employer. I'm not working the line at a chicken farm. Obviously, I've cleared it with them.

- "BUT, but, but - YOU DON'T GET PAID !!!!!!" - This one REALLY winds me up. How many times? No Dad I don't I get paid per consultancy day and my client generally budgets for holidays. They'd be less than impressed if I bill 260 working days for the year! Besides which, I have no plans to be the richest man in the graveyard like you?

- "BUT, what about me? How will I manage?" - Jeez. Generally, I visit him once a week. I'll go tonight. I'm back next Tuesday so will prob go see him next Wed so no visits missed anyway. Also, since when did I qualify as an ER doctor or consultant in case of emergency.

Can guarantee by Friday (I'm going Saturday) he'll be "ill". Hes done it before. Last time he asked "so can you cancel because I need you here?". Yeh like low cost airlines will deffo refund the day before a flight for no apparent reason. Even better was "Can you stay home and your wife can go with the kids?" Yeh Dad, you've been divorced twice, I have no plans to go that way.

His best one was "Yes but I'm ill you can claim on holiday insurance that a close family member is seriously ill". This was laughable. Seriously ill? As in suddenly made something up. I'm assuming insurance companies need some sort of proof - a medically qualified would see within 5 mins that Dad was not ill - just old.

Wait till he hears about my 3 weeks in Florida in August. Thats always fun. He was "ill" for 3 weeks before, 2 hospital visits, 1 ambulance. Ignored them all and went anyway. He even told me "Have a nice time, I might not be around when you get home. Leave you're number so someone can contact you if something happens to me".

First day I got there, called him "Now don't worry but I've been to hospital again in an ambulance". Jeez. Im 8 hours flight away Dad, I ain't coming home. Worried about it for about 2 seconds then put the phone down and took the kids to Disneyworld.

[bee well]

Hi P123,

It's good to hear you are going to Spain.

Judging from your Dad's past behaviour there is a very good chance he will do his best to guilt you about your much deserved break, if hasn't already done so.

From my point of view his insistence on pay or perceived lack of, and meddling in your work affairs, is an example of this. (The reasoning is as follows: unless one has a strict 9-5 and beyond schedule, and works one's self to exhaustion while simultaneously becoming a billionaire there is no reason to take time off. This is an exaggeration on my part but I think you see where I am going with the idea...) This insistence also a way to wear you down and diminish what you do so he can remain in control. He may be getting on in years and acting wonky, but it's still all about control.

I'm glad to see what you have written here: "I have no plans to be the richest man in the graveyard." That is golden.

As far as your Dad's continuous waifing and attempts to derail your plans (regardless of the fallout for you and your family), it's understandable and not surprising that your frustration and hurt don't "just go away" in spite of your repeated exposure, as it's the repeated exposure to his abusive behaviour that is causing you more pain.

You say "Hes my Dad - I dont want to abandon him. It takes a lot until you finally see it."

You see it. You are not abandoning him in any way, even if he may see it that way. It appears that if he doesn't have you at constant arm's length, he feels as if you don't care or don't exist. You know that's untrue. It's not your fault and unfortunately you cannot change it, you can only conserve your energy and protect you and your family from the draining effect. (Ergo, the trip to Spain/self care.)

You have determined that you are not in a position to cut off from your Dad, and justly, you want to be available in the case there arises a genuine need. In any case,  I hope that in your time away you might consider turning your phone off for reasonable periods of time (or at least having a set time when you will check messages, and not budging from that), as you likely will not be able to do anything in the immediate while you are in Spain. Nor can you reasonably be available in every moment you are at home.

You predict your Dad's reaction: "BUT, what about me? How will I manage?" and then your response to yourself is " - Jeez. Generally, I visit him once a week. I'll go tonight. I'm back next Tuesday so will problem go see him next Wed so no visits missed anyway. Also, since when did I qualify as an ER doctor or consultant in case of emergency."

That's right. It's just that: you are not an ER doctor. The ER will be there when you are away.  You will visit him when you get home. If he gets sick in the meantime, feigned or not, your being on vacation has nothing to do with that.

If  does "fall ill" while you are away and you find yourself "talking to him" about it when you get back, it might be helpful to practice responding without emotion. It sounds sad, without expressing sympathy and emotion, as any of this will reinforce his behaviour. Easier said than done (and I know you are aware of this.)  From experience, practice=progress. That's what I keep reminding myself in similar situations. (As I have written before my MIL is doing her best to drive me and DH off the edge and has no intention of stopping. Ever.) I don't recall if anyone has already written it here in this thread but there's a saying that come to mind: "Detach with Love." (Love for yourself as well as your Dad.)...

Peace to you.

[p123]

Thanks BeeWell,

Going tomorrow and as expected hes started already. Im even more convinced his "illness" is ALL in his head.

I say I'm going away hes ill and "can't cope on his own". I mention he'd have to pay for home help and suddenly "Im ok, I can manage" and hes well for a few days.

He contradicts himself too. One sentence he tells me how ill he is, then I ask if hes taking the tablets the doctor gave him. Mostly the answer is "1 or 2 a day" (his max does is 8). Then he moans it affects his bowels (know side effect) so I ask do you take the laxatives the doctor gave you to help with this? No. Then I realise he just wants to moan and groan about it all.

I've told him he can't phone me in spain and I can't call him because it costs too much. Even with Brexit, I wasn't sure but most peoples mobile/cell plans still include mainland europe - not telling him this though! I'd be coming back from the beach with my kids and I KNOW he'd be on a mission to tell me how ill he was but don't worry he might be able to manage until I got back hes not sure....

[Starboard Song]

Grab a copy of Mindfulness, by Williams and Penman, on your way out of town.

It is the missing ingredient for happiness.

You already know the degree to which your father's ailments are real or imagined. You know his ingrained habits and the degree to which they are malleable. You know his capacity for respecting your boundaries, and have measured it to the thimble with all your patience. You've even begun to design boundaries that work: ones you can enforce on your own without resorting to a nuclear option. The missing ingredient is your state of mind about all of it.

There are at least five terrible human beings living within a mile of you right now. But none of these people gets under your skin the way this one sad, elderly man does. You deserve to get him out from under your skin. It is your birthright as a human being.

And getting him out from under your skin, you living in renewed peace, is not dependent on him. Magically (and this is empowering), it does not require him to change by one iota.