Freeing realization... children don't owe their parents anything

Started by easterncappy, July 27, 2022, 11:36:47 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Cat of the Canals

Quote from: easterncappy on July 29, 2022, 11:15:16 PM
She probably is trying to wittle me down - Lord knows how many times I've given into stuff just because she wouldn't stop bugging me about it. But she definitely isn't doing it to make sure I'm safe... even if that was true, which it isn't, it's not my job to give into her weird clingy worries. I just hate that it has to be a long drawn out thought process for me at my age rather than an easy "no, what the hell are you talking about, stop it" like it is for most people.

It took me a long time (I was quite a bit older than your 25) to figure out that respecting when I say "no" is a boundary all by itself, and that if someone was going to repeatedly ignore it, they were showing me they don't respect ME. Anyone like that isn't worth much of my time, and they certainly aren't deserving of an explanation beyond "NOPE."

Leonor

"there's a lot of power in making it so that someone who walked all over you your whole life knows not to do it anymore"

Yes, but it's a magic power. There's a even a name for it: magical thinking. It's thinking that you, by your insight or willpower or healed-ness or practice or just having dealt with her nonsense for long enough, can make another person do or think or say something you want.

Your mom is not going to learn, get it, understand, have a moment of clarity, experience an epiphany, humor you, decide that's just how it is, give in, play by your rules ... Ever. She's going to escalate, and she will be relentless. It is amazing to us healing people the unlimited energy disordered people have to pour into their disruption, long after we would just come to terms or exhaust ourselves or work our way through to a place of peace.

The only person you can control is you. Your special healing journey will be learning to decide on what boundaries work best for you and to put them into practice, and withstand the guilt and grief when you do, and shower yourself with compassion when you don't, and tend kindly to yourself before, during, and after.

Boundaries are for you.

moglow

"She had not known the weight until she felt the freedom." ~Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter
"Expectations are disappointments under construction." ~Capn Spanky, The Nook circa 2005ish

Pepin

Quote from: Leonor on July 31, 2022, 02:53:37 AM
Your mom is not going to learn, get it, understand, have a moment of clarity, experience an epiphany, humor you, decide that's just how it is, give in, play by your rules ... Ever. She's going to escalate, and she will be relentless. It is amazing to us healing people the unlimited energy disordered people have to pour into their disruption, long after we would just come to terms or exhaust ourselves or work our way through to a place of peace.

:yeahthat:

Their unlimited energy is outrageous.  This is how they operate.  I've gone through this with two PDs - NF and CN MIL.   

Sidney37

Quote from: Leonor on July 31, 2022, 02:53:37 AM

Your mom is not going to learn, get it, understand, have a moment of clarity, experience an epiphany, humor you, decide that's just how it is, give in, play by your rules ... Ever. She's going to escalate, and she will be relentless. It is amazing to us healing people the unlimited energy disordered people have to pour into their disruption, long after we would just come to terms or exhaust ourselves or work our way through to a place of peace.

The only person you can control is you. Your special healing journey will be learning to decide on what boundaries work best for you and to put them into practice, and withstand the guilt and grief when you do, and shower yourself with compassion when you don't, and tend kindly to yourself before, during, and after.


:yeahthat:

Many years before the actual NC, we went NC that coincided with the silent treatment from NPDm.  This happened after she stormed out of my house when my DH was in the hospital.  She was mad that she wasn't getting enough attention and she lit into me for not taking care of getting my kids ready for a recital when I was on the phone with DH and the doctor, while googling the tests that the doctor was ordering next, while texting my BIL with details of DH's condition.  Just the night before my enD insisted that DH wasn't going to make it as he drove him to the ER.  He was really sick.  I was home holding down things with the young kids while NPDm got more and more upset that she wasn't the center of attention.  So I'm on the phone with the doctor while NPDm was lounging on the sofa, coffee in one hand, tablet in the other while my young children cried for her help to help them to get ready for this important recital.  Nope.  This was her responsibility and she told my kids and me that if I wasn't wasting time "playing on her phone and computer while they cried" they would have the things they needed.  I got off the call, snapped at NPDm and she and enD immediatly drove 8 hours home, missed the recital and didn't speak to us for months.  DH ended up being fine, but the damage was done.

Well off we went to couples therapy and the therapist insisted that we go back to communication and that we could "train" my PD mom to treat us kindly by using positive reinforcement when she kind to us and our kids and negative reinforcement when she wasn't.  We were so hopeful.  We reinitiated contact with a list of boundaries.  Instead of changing, she manipulated and verbally abused my child behind our backs.  Several years later after she said some horrific things about my younger child and husband and to my older child an me, we ended up NC.

I'm not saying that you should go NC.  Everyone has to make the right decision for them and their families.  But they don't "earn, get it, understand, have a moment of clarity, experience an epiphany, humor you, decide that's just how it is, give in, play by your rules ... ".   They escalate.  They manipulate others.  You just have to decide what your boundaries are, what your consequences are and accept them for who they are. 

easterncappy

Quote from: Sidney37 on July 31, 2022, 02:40:09 PM
:yeahthat:

Many years before the actual NC, we went NC that coincided with the silent treatment from NPDm.  This happened after she stormed out of my house when my DH was in the hospital.  She was mad that she wasn't getting enough attention and she lit into me for not taking care of getting my kids ready for a recital when I was on the phone with DH and the doctor, while googling the tests that the doctor was ordering next, while texting my BIL with details of DH's condition.  Just the night before my enD insisted that DH wasn't going to make it as he drove him to the ER.  He was really sick.  I was home holding down things with the young kids while NPDm got more and more upset that she wasn't the center of attention.  So I'm on the phone with the doctor while NPDm was lounging on the sofa, coffee in one hand, tablet in the other while my young children cried for her help to help them to get ready for this important recital.  Nope.  This was her responsibility and she told my kids and me that if I wasn't wasting time "playing on her phone and computer while they cried" they would have the things they needed.  I got off the call, snapped at NPDm and she and enD immediatly drove 8 hours home, missed the recital and didn't speak to us for months.  DH ended up being fine, but the damage was done.

Well off we went to couples therapy and the therapist insisted that we go back to communication and that we could "train" my PD mom to treat us kindly by using positive reinforcement when she kind to us and our kids and negative reinforcement when she wasn't.  We were so hopeful.  We reinitiated contact with a list of boundaries.  Instead of changing, she manipulated and verbally abused my child behind our backs.  Several years later after she said some horrific things about my younger child and husband and to my older child an me, we ended up NC.

I'm not saying that you should go NC.  Everyone has to make the right decision for them and their families.  But they don't "earn, get it, understand, have a moment of clarity, experience an epiphany, humor you, decide that's just how it is, give in, play by your rules ... ".   They escalate.  They manipulate others.  You just have to decide what your boundaries are, what your consequences are and accept them for who they are. 
Quote from: Leonor on July 31, 2022, 02:53:37 AM
"there's a lot of power in making it so that someone who walked all over you your whole life knows not to do it anymore"

Yes, but it's a magic power. There's a even a name for it: magical thinking. It's thinking that you, by your insight or willpower or healed-ness or practice or just having dealt with her nonsense for long enough, can make another person do or think or say something you want.

Your mom is not going to learn, get it, understand, have a moment of clarity, experience an epiphany, humor you, decide that's just how it is, give in, play by your rules ... Ever. She's going to escalate, and she will be relentless. It is amazing to us healing people the unlimited energy disordered people have to pour into their disruption, long after we would just come to terms or exhaust ourselves or work our way through to a place of peace.

The only person you can control is you. Your special healing journey will be learning to decide on what boundaries work best for you and to put them into practice, and withstand the guilt and grief when you do, and shower yourself with compassion when you don't, and tend kindly to yourself before, during, and after.

Boundaries are for you.

Noted. Thank you both.

I suppose you're right in that very few PD people will ever seek help for the way they are. It's a cliche at this point, "the first step is admitting you have a problem". So her being able to change her behavior is basically out of the question and it shouldn't be a goal for me. You see how deep this thinking goes? Earlier in this thread I was saying things like "it's not our job to fix our PD parents". And there I go, trying to fix my PD parent. The feeling of obligation is very strong. I wouldn't have caught that... or maybe I'd have only caught it if someone else said it, that tends to be my specialty. :P

But am I wrong to think that I need to learn to stand up to her? Even if it makes her lash out, oh well. If she wants to end up on the "call the police if this person ever shows up to the house" list along with her creeper husband, that's her choice. I feel like I'm failing myself if I don't learn how to deal with this kind of manipulation. In my mind, I have to learn how to firmly say "no", with no explanation, even if she's doing her routine of screaming that she's going to commit suicide and that life isn't worth living and that I hate her and blah blah, you all know the drill (even if your PD parent's exact flavor of irrational behavior was different it's all the same at it's core).

Or maybe NC would just be the better option. Not to sound like I'm making excuses (I'm the first one to point out that real life abuse is not 24/7/365 brutal torture like it is in movies - the good times don't invalidate the bad times), but most days of the week are fine. We talk about our pets, our plants, what we've cooked recently, and the conversations are totally normal. I feel like I need to learn to be stone cold when on day 7 of an otherwise good week, she decides to pull some ridiculous stunt.

I did get a smile out of the idea of "training them" like dogs. If only. It only took one of my dogs a couple of times of firmly being told "no" to stop eating out of the other dog's bowl. Wish my mom was that simple.

Leonor

"It's a cliche at this point, "the first step is admitting you have a problem". So her being able to change her behavior is basically out of the question and it shouldn't be a goal for me."

Right. The first step is admitting that you have a problem. Your problem. You. Not your mom. Not how do I handle mom or what's up with mom or what will mom do or what should I say if mom ...

Admit that you have a problem with you.

And it's not really a problem at all, but the most healing and most loving thing you can do for yourself. It's the first step towards light and warmth and being able to experience safety with your husband and delight in your baby and joy in yourself. Your first step is to turn towards you.

It's picking up the phone and calling a therapist. Or a support group. Or a family resource center. And saying, "Hi, I am an incest survivor, and I'd like to make an appointment with a trauma therapist."

Seriously. #@€& your mom.

NarcKiddo

Quote from: easterncappy on July 31, 2022, 08:52:33 PM

But am I wrong to think that I need to learn to stand up to her? Even if it makes her lash out, oh well. If she wants to end up on the "call the police if this person ever shows up to the house" list along with her creeper husband, that's her choice. I feel like I'm failing myself if I don't learn how to deal with this kind of manipulation. In my mind, I have to learn how to firmly say "no", with no explanation, even if she's doing her routine of screaming that she's going to commit suicide and that life isn't worth living and that I hate her and blah blah, you all know the drill (even if your PD parent's exact flavor of irrational behavior was different it's all the same at it's core).

Or maybe NC would just be the better option. Not to sound like I'm making excuses (I'm the first one to point out that real life abuse is not 24/7/365 brutal torture like it is in movies - the good times don't invalidate the bad times), but most days of the week are fine. We talk about our pets, our plants, what we've cooked recently, and the conversations are totally normal. I feel like I need to learn to be stone cold when on day 7 of an otherwise good week, she decides to pull some ridiculous stunt.


You have to do what is best for you in the full knowledge that she will not change fundamentally. To some extent she will react to your behaviour in a reasonably predictable way most of the time. So you can mostly be in some sort of control of the situation, and you by now can generally read the signs of when things are about to blow up. For me grey rock and observe/don't absorb works pretty well. It is emotionally exhausting for me but I am prepared to do it if it means she does not push me over the edge to NC. Like you say, there can be good times. Although they are as exhausting as the bad times because I have to be ever alert for something that might tip her over into bad.

I don't stand up to my mother - I withstand her. I look at it like a sea wall. Sometimes her waves are just gently lapping at the wall in a nice and calm way. An outsider might look at the height of the wall and say "good grief, why on earth did the town planners build such a tall and robust wall? It's clearly unnecessary." But if they were to see the height and force of those waves when she blows a gale it would be abundantly clear why the walls are the way they are.
Don't let the narcs get you down!