Freeing realization... children don't owe their parents anything

[easterncappy]

Children don't owe their parents anything, ever, outside of what is owed to all other human beings (politeness, basic respect, etc.).

Before a child is 18, the only thing they "owe" their parents is adherence to reasonable house rules - that's just the nature of being a child, though. They don't owe their parents hugs or kisses... because those should always be given consensually and enthusiastically. They don't owe their parents adherence to some idea of a "perfect child", in terms of hobbies and interests and career trajectory. They certainly don't owe their parents friendship or a shoulder to cry on. Children are not things to be enjoyed by the adults in their lives, they're human beings with rights.

After a child is 18, they don't owe their parents anything. They aren't a retirement plan or an investment for their parents. They don't owe their parents visits for the holidays. They don't owe their parents a room in their house when they're older. They don't owe their parents the fruits of their labor. They don't owe their parents praise or even a "thank you" for providing food, shelter, and clothing - that is the bare minimum parents have to do so that the government doesn't take their children away. And most importantly, they don't owe their parents help with any psychological or behavioral issues, we aren't here to fix our parents. Children don't owe their parents or even contact once they are adults - no one is owed a relationship with someone over strands of shared DNA, even familiar relationships should be based in respect, kindness, and love. If your children think you treat them poorly and are unpleasant to be around, they don't have to keep you in their lives just because you're their parent once they move out.

This isn't to say that the relationship between a parent and a child should be cold, emotionless, and promptly end when they child is 18. But in most families, where there aren't issues with personality disorders and abusive tendencies, boundaries are always much clearer and everyone understands what is and isn't appropriate. Parents are much more likely to be genuinely loving and selfless towards their children, parents typically don't expect unreasonable things of their children, and children grow up to be thankful for a genuinely good childhood. They continue relationships with their parents out of love, they do things for and with their parents for the same reason we do things for any loved one, not because of fear or obligation or guilt. Most parents can't stomach the idea of making their child uncomfortable unless it's absolutely necessary. So these things don't need to be said for most people.

I have to repeat this to myself a lot lately. My parents are both so used to making unreasonable demands of me that as I'm trying to disconnect more and more, I find myself still slipping up and giving into some weird thing or another that a parent should never ask of a child. I literally have something almost word for word like the first two paragraphs of this post typed up on my computer and I reread them all of the time. Just today, my mom asked if I can let her track my location again - I'm 25 years old, married, expecting a baby, and I live an hour away from them. "I just want to know you make it home safely every night!". I didn't give her the response I should have... I still said "no", but I gave her a flimsy and not fully correct reason as to why I'm not going to do that. I had to be told by others that it's abnormal for parents to have location sharing with their adult children, that's how enmeshed I was.

Sometimes I feel bad because I feel like I got cheated out of a good childhood while everyone else got to have one... then I realize, I can be free now. I don't have to keep giving into it and it feels a lot better having freedom after not having had it, because I know what I was missing out on. Others don't. Lol

[Cat of the Canals]

Yes! I saw someone recently phrase this same concept as: parenting is not transactional. Don't have kids if you have expectations of being "paid back" in some way.

Because at the end of the day, our parents are the ones who chose to have us. We had no say in the matter. To put any sort of assumption of emotional reimbursement (or otherwise)on that is ridiculous.

Just today, my mom asked if I can let her track my location again

I'd like to nominate "absolutely not" as a potential response for any future request like this with no further explanation. I mean, YIKES!!!

[moglow]

Just today, my mom asked if I can let her track my location again

Going out on a limb here - I'm guessing outright laughter isn't quite the response she's looking for.

There is no reason for a parent to track location of their adult children, much less adults who have families of their own. I'm not finding any exceptions to that anywhere in my brain.

[Andeza]

The only potentially valid reason I can think of is if the adult child requests it because they have a dangerous job and they want a second pair of eyes checking on them now and then. But even that is straining reality, and I only mention it because my DH works in potentially lethal areas and has me track his location in case I need to send his boss looking for him.

No, we don't owe our parents anything. We do owe ourselves respect and safe boundaries.

[kethartikt0kb00m]

I was just thinking about this the other day... I have a culture where it isn't explicitly stated but it's heavily implied that the relationship music give and take. You have to do something for them for them providing for you. And I just felt like something was always wrong with that but it was never said it was always strongly suggested and implied with guilt reading expectations.

I watched a video of Dr. Ramani basically bringing it home to seeing parents who want to be sort of reimbursed for taking care of you and putting a roof over your head and giving you food and clothing where orphanages can also give you food and a place to stay as well that's  pretty standard. That shouldn't mean that all of a sudden you have to take on all their life stress, and their burdens and sort of do the things that they're asking of you and not allowing you to have your own life and be independent. To make you feel guilty for not doing so.

It's like they see me as an investment and they're waiting to get their return on the investment. I can't help but feel sorry whenever they bring up that they cared for me their whole lives and struggled so much whenever I try to set up boundary or say no to something I think is unreasonable. I get afraid because I know first comes to guilt, and when that doesn't work they will get disproportionately outraged all of a sudden almost like they're trying to shock me into saying yes. all the while still maintaining their victim hood.

Children are a gift and parents should have children because it reminds them about why life is worth living because when you get older you start feeling those things and living your life for your children is supposed to remind you about the importance of life not an opportunity for you to live a second life. But I'm past the stage of feeling depressed about it. It is nice to hear someone like you expressing your thoughts on it because it makes me feel like I'm not alone. So thank you, you may not know if you did anything but you did a lot just by sharing.

[easterncappy]

Going out on a limb here - I'm guessing outright laughter isn't quite the response she's looking for.

There is no reason for a parent to track location of their adult children, much less adults who have families of their own. I'm not finding any exceptions to that anywhere in my brain.

I'd like to nominate "absolutely not" as a potential response for any future request like this with no further explanation. I mean, YIKES!!!

The only potentially valid reason I can think of is if the adult child requests it because they have a dangerous job and they want a second pair of eyes checking on them now and then. But even that is straining reality, and I only mention it because my DH works in potentially lethal areas and has me track his location in case I need to send his boss looking for him.

No, we don't owe our parents anything. We do owe ourselves respect and safe boundaries.

I appreciate this, it's very validating. Lol

For context, I'm related to another woman who smothers her kids, let's call her Betsy. As time goes on, I realize that Betsy's dynamic with her kids is pretty much the same as my mom's dynamic with me... but my mom always spoke negatively of Betsy's parenting. During today's conversation, she said "listen - I'm not trying to be a helicopter parent like Betsy is! It's just that I'm your mom, I'll always be your mom, and I'll always worry about you, I just want to know you're safe at night". I'm wise enough at my age to know that this is just deflection. She is exactly the same as Betsy, she knows I think Betsy is a bit coo coo, so she needs to make sure I won't think she's like Betsy. When I was younger, this worked very well for her. I used to think she was nothing like controlling Betsy, because she told me she wasn't, and she was very good at putting thoughts into my head and convincing me to say "yes" to things I didn't really want (and guess what became a recurring theme in other relationships in my life as a result of this).

It's odd that I have to think my way through this really hard just to arrive at the conclusion of healthy boundaries. Even if my mom wasn't deflecting, her desire is inappropriate and controlling. Even if she's worried, it's not my job to let her walk all over me just to satisfy some irrational emotion. What does location sharing have to do with my safety at night? I live an hour away from her in a very safe area, and I have a husband, two dogs, and guns to ensure my safety. It's all excuses and just translates to "I need total control and oversight over you". Back when I used to share location with her all of the time, it was really creepy and uncomfortable. I'd be at the store and I'd get a random call from her where she was giggling about how I'm at the store, like it's just a cute thing that we know each other's location all of the time. I'd leave her house and she'd say "I'll just check Google Maps to see when you get home!" like it was a totally normal thing. I felt completely suffocated and my husband and all of my friends thought it was absolute psycho behavior on her part. I felt so guilty when I finally turned it off but I could finally drive to buy some bread without getting a creepy phone call about what I was buying.

PD parents have a type of power over their victims that other types of PD people don't have, I think, because we're raised into the dynamic. For a long time, I felt like I wanted all of this... even though I was always uncomfortable, I couldn't tell you why I was uncomfortable, but I was. My knee jerk reaction was to say it wasn't that bad and that I liked it, even though I always felt dread and panic about the idea of being tracked (among other things). My mom convinced me that we had an extremely close bond like no two other people have, so all of these over the top things that are considered excessive even between loving spouses are perfectly fine between us.

[easterncappy]

I was just thinking about this the other day… I have a culture where it isn’t explicitly stated but it’s heavily implied that the relationship music give and take. You have to do something for them for them providing for you. And I just felt like something was always wrong with that but it was never said it was always strongly suggested and implied with guilt reading expectations.

I watched a video of Dr. Ramani basically bringing it home to seeing parents who want to be sort of reimbursed for taking care of you and putting a roof over your head and giving you food and clothing where orphanages can also give you food and a place to stay as well that’s  pretty standard. That shouldn’t mean that all of a sudden you have to take on all their life stress, and their burdens and sort of do the things that they’re asking of you and not allowing you to have your own life and be independent. To make you feel guilty for not doing so.

It’s like they see me as an investment and they’re waiting to get their return on the investment. I can’t help but feel sorry whenever they bring up that they cared for me their whole lives and struggled so much whenever I try to set up boundary or say no to something I think is unreasonable. I get afraid because I know first comes to guilt, and when that doesn’t work they will get disproportionately outraged all of a sudden almost like they’re trying to shock me into saying yes. all the while still maintaining their victim hood.

Children are a gift and parents should have children because it reminds them about why life is worth living because when you get older you start feeling those things and living your life for your children is supposed to remind you about the importance of life not an opportunity for you to live a second life. But I’m past the stage of feeling depressed about it. It is nice to hear someone like you expressing your thoughts on it because it makes me feel like I’m not alone. So thank you, you may not know if you did anything but you did a lot just by sharing.

I also come from a culture where children are expected to do a lot more for their parents than I think is normal elsewhere. We moved to the US when I was little, and while there are abusive families and healthy families everywhere, a lot of my parents' ideas about family stuck out more when compared to the average American family. It's important to recognize that all cultures can have wrong ideas about things. You can like the culture you're from but only keep the good parts, and you're free to discard the parts that sound like they came out of the stone ages. That's what I did.

I don't know where you're from, but most countries have some equivalent of what is called Child Protective Services in the US. What your parents expect a reward for is the bare minimum that's legally required before one of these organizations takes children out of a home. What they did for you is the same thing a pet requires to survive, and you're much more complex and require a lot more than a pet does to really thrive in life. What your parents gave you is the same thing you get in a jail cell. In short, it's nothing special and they aren't special for doing it. They weren't going above and beyond for you. I'm not saying your parents would, but many PD parents would do even less if they were able to legally get away with it.

Maybe I sound like a jerk but I'm also a parent. Becoming a parent is what showed me that my parents failed me. I don't understand how anyone can have a helpless, tiny baby and immediately think of what they can get out of a relationship with that baby. My daughter doesn't owe me anything, not even a hug, and she never will. If she gives me anything when I'm old and she's an adult, it'll be because she wants to and not because it's expected. One of the worst things you can do to a child is to turn them into an extension of you, a retirement plan, an investment, unable to say "no"... it might not leave physical scars but your parents clearly have no problem emotionally crippling you for life just so they have someone else to take care of them. Again, sorry if that comes off as mean, but everything you're saying hits really close to home.

You'd think I'm absolutely insane if I told you all of the stuff I did for my parents out of guilt, or because I just thought I had to or was supposed to do it, or because I was scared of what would happen if I didn't. I still have to stop myself from giving into random unreasonable demands even after years of reading these kinds of forums, self-help books for the abused, psychological materials, etc. I feel like I've been trained like a dog and I'm probably never going to have the same sense of self and healthy boundaries that seems to be natural to most people. Again, I don't understand how someone can do this to a child.

[Leonor]

"My knee jerk reaction was to say it wasn't that bad and that I liked it, even though I always felt dread and panic about the idea of being tracked (among other things). My mom convinced me that we had an extremely close bond like no two other people have, so all of these over the top things that are considered excessive even between loving spouses are perfectly fine between us."

This, dear EC, is the sexual abuse. It's called "emotional incest," and it's when a parent treats the child as a partner rather than a child. My mom was like that, too, always saying we had a "special relationship" and turning me into a dress-up doll, a confidante, a best friend, even a date, until a man came into her life and then I was just another mouth to feed.

It was extremely confusing, because I was the golden child for this successful charismatic funny brilliant doting mommy ... Until I wasn't, and I was left feeling desolate and heartbroken, wondering what I had done, feeling like gum on the sole of an old shoe. I kept that image of the Wondermom in my brain, I kept coming to her and hoping she'd be interested, or pleased, or affectionate with me again, and when she was I felt safe and warm and happy. But other times she didn't, and then I felt guilty and embarrassed.

Now as an adult, I am enraged when I think back to how I was begging for crumbs as a little girl, tears streaming down my face as she left me at a series of horrific day care homes, or trembling as I told her I had been assaulted only to be severely punished for staying out late, or as I got older, telling her outright, I need help, I need a therapist and having her tell me to go find someone in the phone book. This, from the woman who dragged us all to "family therapy" when she thought her marriage was in trouble and whose best friend was a child psychologist.

As a mom now, though, and I hope this brings comfort to you, the love I have for my kids is so wide and open and deep that it's like a tidal wave washing over the old fears and miserliness of my mother's "love" for me. It's easy to make a mistake, because I do carry trauma, but it's even easier to apologize when I do. It's easy to squash little people in big mamma bear hugs, and ruffle the hair of my teens, and just be proud of them all the time, and truly want them to be happy adults while I cheer them on from the sidelines (or not, since the teens have explicitly told me that I am NOT allowed to be audible at their games ... But also that I AM expected to be in attendance.) It's

And no you are not permanently damaged and you will not accidentally damage your baby and you never really bought into your mom's nutjobbery, because you did feel uncomfortable and you had to be "convinced" and felt guilty and strangeness around all of it. You were a perfect, precious, strong and self aware little girl and you did what you needed to do to survive.


But it might take more than a book or a YouTube video or a forum, because you deserve more than just a professional point of view or an emoji from fellow travelers. You have your own unique story and your heart's own hurts, and a past that is personal and specific to you. That's where a trauma therapist can help you in your journey, to recognize the amazing, individual healing spirit you are and to guide you to really dig deep to find that little Cappy who just wants someone to see her and say, "I love you."

[NarcKiddo]

It is horrendous what we are conditioned to. And I applaud you for getting wise to it as early as you have. I only started realising something was off in my 30s and only started disengaging in my 40s.

"I am your one and only mother," she says. Well, thank goodness, because I have trouble enough coping with one. The thought of there being more...

[easterncappy]

This, dear EC, is the sexual abuse. It's called "emotional incest," and it's when a parent treats the child as a partner rather than a child. My mom was like that, too, always saying we had a "special relationship" and turning me into a dress-up doll, a confidante, a best friend, even a date, until a man came into her life and then I was just another mouth to feed.

It was extremely confusing, because I was the golden child for this successful charismatic funny brilliant doting mommy ... Until I wasn't, and I was left feeling desolate and heartbroken, wondering what I had done, feeling like gum on the sole of an old shoe. I kept that image of the Wondermom in my brain, I kept coming to her and hoping she'd be interested, or pleased, or affectionate with me again, and when she was I felt safe and warm and happy. But other times she didn't, and then I felt guilty and embarrassed.

Thank you for this. It all sounds very familiar. For as much as we were "best friends" and had "a relationship like no other", she sure did know how to throw me away like a toy she didn't want to play with anymore when something more interesting or lucrative showed up... I've posted before about the day I realized I can never have a normal relationship with her... she basically chose a sex offender who abused me, over me, when I was still a minor and needed her protection, because of his paycheck and the fact that in her mind, I'm a troublemaker for ever bringing it up in the first place. She had betrayed her duties towards me many times in the past, but until that day, it was easy to justify to myself that she was still "Wondermom", as you put it, despite her "mistakes" (which I now know were intentional).

Now as an adult, I am enraged when I think back to how I was begging for crumbs as a little girl, tears streaming down my face as she left me at a series of horrific day care homes, or trembling as I told her I had been assaulted only to be severely punished for staying out late, or as I got older, telling her outright, I need help, I need a therapist and having her tell me to go find someone in the phone book. This, from the woman who dragged us all to "family therapy" when she thought her marriage was in trouble and whose best friend was a child psychologist.

This actually happened to my mom, by her own mom, and she thinks I'm crazy and dramatic for calling it abuse. My mom left me with her fair share of shady people growing up (including her beloved sex offender), but her mom did the same times 100... just so she could go party. My mom has cried as told me the stories of these people's cruelty and how abandoned she constantly felt, but somehow it isn't abuse? "Everyone did that back then, don't be dramatic". Oh well, I guess you can't get someone to work on a problem they don't accept they have. My mom always made fun of the idea of therapy and she'd say that people make up childhood abuse stories to be trendy.

As a mom now, though, and I hope this brings comfort to you, the love I have for my kids is so wide and open and deep that it's like a tidal wave washing over the old fears and miserliness of my mother's "love" for me. It's easy to make a mistake, because I do carry trauma, but it's even easier to apologize when I do. It's easy to squash little people in big mamma bear hugs, and ruffle the hair of my teens, and just be proud of them all the time, and truly want them to be happy adults while I cheer them on from the sidelines (or not, since the teens have explicitly told me that I am NOT allowed to be audible at their games ... But also that I AM expected to be in attendance.) It's

And no you are not permanently damaged and you will not accidentally damage your baby and you never really bought into your mom's nutjobbery, because you did feel uncomfortable and you had to be "convinced" and felt guilty and strangeness around all of it. You were a perfect, precious, strong and self aware little girl and you did what you needed to do to survive.

I appreciate this a lot. I always like to hear about people who grew up like we did and ended up being excellent parents. It calms me down a lot. The second breaking point for me, meaning that I had to start limiting my already distant relationship with my mom even more, was finding out that I'm having a baby. All of the sudden, I realized I wasn't being dramatic about everything that happened. I genuinely couldn't imagine doing any of this to a little baby who relies on me for everything. I don't think I could live with myself if it turned out that I accidentally made her feel the way my mom did... but then again, that doesn't happen on accident, my mom may not have intended specifically to make me feel terrible, but it was the byproduct of a lot of her bad behavioral traits that she refused to work on or even acknowledge, and my well-being was a fair price to pay for stuff she wanted.

I try to be very aware of how I behave. It never occurred to either of my parents that their behavior was wrong and needed to be changed. I'm terrified to death of ever accidentally inflicting any fleas from my childhood onto my daughter. In the beginning of my marriage, I caught myself behaving just like my mom did towards my husband... and I was horrified. It just came so naturally to react to things the way she does. It keeps me on my toes, that's for sure. But the difference is, I felt remorse. There was a lot of apologizing and even today I have to ask myself "is that me speaking, or my mom speaking?". I'm getting better and better at it.

But it might take more than a book or a YouTube video or a forum, because you deserve more than just a professional point of view or an emoji from fellow travelers. You have your own unique story and your heart's own hurts, and a past that is personal and specific to you. That's where a trauma therapist can help you in your journey, to recognize the amazing, individual healing spirit you are and to guide you to really dig deep to find that little Cappy who just wants someone to see her and say, "I love you."

I'm trying! Insurance is confusing and I've narrowed it down to three therapists I want to get in contact with in the near future that are in my area and I'm... pretty sure they're covered? We'll see. I've been reading websites like this for the better part of a decade and I just keep revealing more and more... stuff I didn't realize was abnormal, memories that pop back up after 20 years, tendencies I have that aren't healthy, etc. At some point one just needs a professional, you're right.

Thanks again.

[Hazy111]

Correct !

" In good enough families the emotional health of the children is the responsibility of the parents , with narcissistic parents the emotional health of the parents is the responsibility of the child "

[easterncappy]

Correct !

" In good enough families the emotional health of the children is the responsibility of the parents , with narcissistic parents the emotional health of the parents is the responsibility of the child "

This is shocking to learn if you grew up with that dynamic. I remember so many nights of my mom crying in my room and I would just say whatever I thought sounded like good adult advice so that she'd finally get out and leave me alone. I wouldn't have described it as "get out and leave me alone" when I was in elementary school, but I remember being like "gee I really wish I could play video games or draw right now and not have to deal with this". It's absolutely incomprehensible to me that most people I know never had to hear their parents complain to them about finances, marriage, sex, legal issues, work, etc. I felt kind of like "wow, I must be more mature than other kids" at the time but now I'm like "wow, I was supposed to be running around outside and playing".

[easterncappy]

Today, my mom had to bring up the location sharing again. "You do realize that this means that if anything bad happens to you, I have no way of knowing where you are, right?". Uh, yes, I know. I'm a 25 year old married adult and a mother, I definitely don't need and overbearing old woman looking out for me. That's what I have myself, my husband, my dogs, and my guns for. She's not even being honest, because I live an hour away and she's scared to drive on the highway so it would take her closer to two hours to get to me. How would she know something happened to me, anyway? She couldn't even protect me from her creepy child molester husband when I was a helpless child, why would she want to protect me now? Does she think that other adults have their mommy and daddy tracking them "in case anything happens"?

Literally, what is this woman's deal? I keep telling her I'm uncomfortable with it, that it's abnormal, and that I prefer to not share my location with her. "In case anything happens" - well, it probably won't, but I know that if I turn it back on at any point I'll just get more creepy phone calls about "oh, I see you're in that area, could you stop by...".

[Cat of the Canals]

Sounds like it's broken record time. "We've discussed this already, and the answer is no." And then change the subject to something mundane like the weather or whatever. If she won't let it go, politely end the call. "I have to go. We'll talk more later. Bye!"

She's going to keep asking. PDs rarely accept "no" the first, second, third, and 50th times because they're trying to wear you down. The only tried and true method to lessen the behavior is to make it clear that you won't stand for this repeated harassment. You have to institute consequences. If they continue to disrespect your simple and clear boundaries, they lose access to you for a period of time.

[Sidney37]

I am so sorry you are dealing with this, but also so impressed that you are learning these lessons at 25.  I was in my 40s and still making the twice a day phone calls (I was punished with threats of withholding important information about my ill grandmother if I didn't)  when my enD (or possibly PDd) starting insisting that I let him track me on an app on my phone.  I was married with two kids and lived 10+ hours away.  I refused and they were furious.  It has nothing to do with love or worry.  It's about control and coping horribly with their own anxiety. 

[moglow]

Suggested responses:
"You do realize *if anything bad happens to me* you aren't likely to be able to do anything about it, right? I have a husband who's much more likely to get there first and he's the one I'd call." Or better, "That's not something I'm going to debate with you again. I said No and i meant it. IF i were to change my mind, I'd tell you." If she persists, end the call with "i understood you the last time you brought this up and i told you No. I have some things to do, I'll talk to you later/another time." And end the call.

Seriously, you don't have to explain yourself on this or anything else. The joys of being an adult, you get to live your life your way. Her approval or permission aren't needed.

[easterncappy]

Sounds like it's broken record time. "We've discussed this already, and the answer is no." And then change the subject to something mundane like the weather or whatever. If she won't let it go, politely end the call. "I have to go. We'll talk more later. Bye!"

She's going to keep asking. PDs rarely accept "no" the first, second, third, and 50th times because they're trying to wear you down. The only tried and true method to lessen the behavior is to make it clear that you won't stand for this repeated harassment. You have to institute consequences. If they continue to disrespect your simple and clear boundaries, they lose access to you for a period of time.

I am so sorry you are dealing with this, but also so impressed that you are learning these lessons at 25.  I was in my 40s and still making the twice a day phone calls (I was punished with threats of withholding important information about my ill grandmother if I didn't)  when my enD (or possibly PDd) starting insisting that I let him track me on an app on my phone.  I was married with two kids and lived 10+ hours away.  I refused and they were furious.  It has nothing to do with love or worry.  It's about control and coping horribly with their own anxiety. 

Suggested responses:
"You do realize *if anything bad happens to me* you aren't likely to be able to do anything about it, right? I have a husband who's much more likely to get there first and he's the one I'd call." Or better, "That's not something I'm going to debate with you again. I said No and i meant it. IF i were to change my mind, I'd tell you." If she persists, end the call with "i understood you the last time you brought this up and i told you No. I have some things to do, I'll talk to you later/another time." And end the call.

Seriously, you don't have to explain yourself on this or anything else. The joys of being an adult, you get to live your life your way. Her approval or permission aren't needed.

Thank you all. A part of why I made that post is because I learned a long time ago that I need to immediately write down exactly what my parents say and do shortly after the fact. I used to do this in various journals, now it's usually in online posts. Just in case they "forget" or claim that "it didn't happen like that". I probably should have just told her "no" without the "this makes me uncomfortable and it's abnormal" explanation. She probably is trying to wittle me down - Lord knows how many times I've given into stuff just because she wouldn't stop bugging me about it. But she definitely isn't doing it to make sure I'm safe... even if that was true, which it isn't, it's not my job to give into her weird clingy worries. I just hate that it has to be a long drawn out thought process for me at my age rather than an easy "no, what the hell are you talking about, stop it" like it is for most people.

[Boat Babe]

Re the last para of your most recent post: our parents trained us to ask "how high?" when they told us to jump so it's no surprise that when we finally start setting boundaries and/or just saying "no" that we agonize over it. That's why coming Out of the FOG is a gradual process. We have to unlearn the old patterns of call and response. The more we do it, the easier it becomes and doesn't leave us drained for days after. I can now be kind and even generous with uBPDm because my boundaries are pretty solid and, this is the important bit, she also knows this. Plus she's an elderly, isolated uberwaif and knows that if she pisses me off, then she's well and truly fucked.

As you practice self protection, self compassion and self esteem in your interactions, you will start to feel lighter and freer in yourself. Notice the small wins in yourself and write them down. Journalling is very good for this sort of thing!

[easterncappy]

Re the last para of your most recent post: our parents trained us to ask "how high?" when they told us to jump so it's no surprise that when we finally start setting boundaries and/or just saying "no" that we agonize over it. That's why coming Out of the FOG is a gradual process. We have to unlearn the old patterns of call and response. The more we do it, the easier it becomes and doesn't leave us drained for days after. I can now be kind and even generous with uBPDm because my boundaries are pretty solid and, this is the important bit, she also knows this. Plus she's an elderly, isolated uberwaif and knows that if she pisses me off, then she's well and truly fucked.

As you practice self protection, self compassion and self esteem in your interactions, you will start to feel lighter and freer in yourself. Notice the small wins in yourself and write them down. Journalling is very good for this sort of thing!

Thank you. I like this community because there isn't so much emphasis on going "no contact" no matter what. I remember getting frustrated at constantly being told "oh no, I hope you can go no contact very soon!" on other websites I'd occasionally post on back in the day.

It's not about my parents (I obviously don't think I owe them a relationship!), but about me. I feel like I'm never going to grow a spine and learn to stand up for myself if I just run away from these problems. I don't talk to my dad unless I absolutely have to, because he's crossed lines that make him a danger to me and my family, but I feel like with my mom, I can forge some boundaries. I just have to learn how, and then it'll help me in other parts of my life. I understand running away, moving far away, blocking numbers, even changing your name, etc. when your family members are psychopathic levels of dangerous (like breaking into your house and threatening you type of behavior), but if you can safely get away with it, there's a lot of power in making it so that someone who walked all over you your whole life knows not to do it anymore. Not everyone has to view it the way I do, of course, everyone should figure out what's best and safest for them.

I want to get to the point where I immediately pick up on manipulation, firmly tell her "no" without sugarcoating it or giving non-answers ("I don't know, maybe" has been my downfall lately), don't ever give into crying or threats, etc. By God, I'm going to keep trying unless she crosses a line that puts her on the same list as her child molester husband. I feel like I'm exercising my self-respect muscles when I do this, lol. If I don't want to be a doormat anymore, I have to act like I'm not a doormat. I remember feeling almost giddy when I told her "okay, if you want to have hurt feelings, you're free to do that, but I honestly didn't do anything that most people would feel hurt by, so I'm not continuing this conversation" when I called her a couple hours later than she would have wanted on a holiday a couple months back. Just a year ago I would be begging for her forgiveness the second I sensed some sadness in her voice. I need to do this for myself.

[Pepin]

I have found Dr. Les Carter to be amazingly helpful when it comes to framing boundaries.  Having his voice inside my head makes it so much easier to be firm with people in a way that makes me feel strong and clear.

https://survivingnarcissism.tv/about-surviving-narcissism/about-dr-les-carter/

His videos on YouTube are invaluable.  When going NC is not an option, his words are gold.  Dr. Carter is one of many that I follow but it his voice and the way that he frames things that just make tolerating a narcissist *doable*.