How to respond to "but she's your motherrrrr"?

[5isRed]

I recently made the decision to cease contact with my NM. There are very few people in my life that know any details about my relationship with her, so it has been a bit of a surprise for one particular person in my life to hear that I've made this decision. I'm honestly baffled by a text from this person saying that she hopes I'll reconsider and someday make amends with my NM, giving sympathy to my mother for a very unhappy life and being incapable of making the needed changes. This person has been horrifically hurt by my mother, and I even made the mistake of trying to make up for it for years before realizing it was not my responsibility and was just part of a pattern of over-developed sense of responsibility on my part, from years of abuse from NM.

I'm looking for resources to read about how to deal with or respond (if I decided it's warranted) to people who say this sort of thing. It is incredibly triggering to hear people tell adult children of NPs that they should forgive and instead try to set boundaries. Like we haven't tried? Are you kidding? Thousands of $$ in therapist bills, hundreds of $$ in books, websites like this.... and I feel like I'm suddenly being gaslit all over again by someone who should know better... who has been told about plenty of the horrible things NM has done (and been on the receiving end of some truly awful behaviors themselves) so there isn't some sudden confusion here. I wanted to respond to the text (but haven't) asking if she would suggest I stay with an insidiously abusive partner, who I finally got the courage to leave after 4 decades? Of course not. But just because this is a mother? Good grief....I am trying not to look for offense here, but it feels like an utter lack of empathy YET AGAIN in life. I don't want to shut this person out of my life, but I am prepared to make a healthy distance, if this is how they're going to behave.

[Cat of the Canals]

I think the simplest way to handle it might be to set a clear boundary. "I know you mean well, but I'm not looking for advice. What I'd really like is a listening ear." Family estrangement makes a lot of people very uncomfortable, and they end up saying a lot of stupid things that are way more about THEIR discomfort than anything to do with you. This isn't meant to excuse the behavior -- it is absolutely a form of gaslighting, in my opinion -- but I doubt this person was thinking about the specifics of the abuse when they said it.

Depending on how the boundary-setting goes (and the level of intimacy of this relationship), you might address the issue directly at some point in the future and have a discussion about how their response made you feel.

Last but not least, know that there's a whole forum of people here who understand you and respect (if not outright applaud) your choice to go NC.

[moglow]

I tend to take the path of least resistance as long as possible, as in not responding to provocative statements like that. She feels how she feels, and her opinions are hers. You -as a separate person- have and are entitled to your own.

Telling me what I "should do" as it relates to my mother? No ma'am. That's an conversation we're not going to have, or at best once, to firmly but politely state my position on the subject. I first considered a snotty "I hope you'll reconsider what it's taken me to get to this point, what I've been through with her." but nah, that's unnecessarily harsh. Perhaps "I understand what you're saying and you mean well, but please understand this is not a conversation we're going to have." Then DON'T. When brought up thereafter, you don't respond. Change the subject. End the conversation or visit. And understand that by doing that you also can't talk to her about your mother and anything said or done going forward, or she'll feel it's okay to comment/advise again. You'll likely have to agree to disagree on this one - she likely is battling her own feelings but that's not yours to fix.

Boundaries. We all need them and they're not a bad thing.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello and welcome,

Someone on social media with some good insights about this is Josh Connolly. I have not researched much about him, but what he has posted on instagram lately often clarifies the message that I think we need to hear more often as survivors of parental abuse.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QgtPoEnuSZg

Also, recent posts by Nate Postlewait have addressed your question head on:

https://www.instagram.com/nate_postlethwait/

It is very common (unfortunately) for people to question our decisions around contact with our own family members. Very common.

I have come to believe that most people do not have a clue what is involved in our experience. Some of them had family experiences a lot like ours, and are not willing to look in a mirror yet.

Some of them had / have parents who are not like ours at all, and they just don't want to educate themselves on parental narcissism. I have come to believe that these people tend to side with the abuser because they do not want to believe the survivor. They might say they do - but when it comes down to it, a lot of people do NOT want to believe survivors. They do not want to acknowledge the complex injuries that were inflicted by a narcissistic parent. They have the luxury of staying in denial - and I have learned the hard way, not to try to change them.

In my opinion, these are not the people who will show up to support survivors - they are still busy being in denial about narc abuse. They are not ready to support survivors- and their approach with us is unhelpful, and like you said, feels like gaslighting (which it often is).

Take care of yourself, and yes, think carefully about whether there is any value to you, in responding to this person.

Trees

[5isRed]

WOW- thank you all. These were incredibly supportive and helpful responses and lightning fast on top of it!

Treesgrowslowly- I will definitely be reading those posts on Instagram today and watch the youtube.  Thank you!
Cat & Moglow- spot on, as usual. Thank you.

I think I made a mistake in telling this person about my decision. You're all right- she is not ready to face her own issues with my NM, and they are massive. (understatement) I also suspect this person does not want to believe my experiences, because she's idealized my life/perceived family, as compared to her own situation. I know this is my guilt-complex kicking in, but I am actually sorry that I even told this person (for them, not me). It was probably insensitive of me, considering the dynamic with her and my NM. When I do interact with her again, I will avoid the topic completely, and if she brings it up, I plan to gently say something along the lines of "I know you care and do appreciate it, but this isn't something I'm looking for advice on. I probably shouldn't' have even shared that I've gone NC. Let's talk about something more interesting- like the kids."

This community is such a relief to have found. Thank you, I suspect I'll be here for awhile.

[Starboard Song]

I'm honestly baffled by a text from this person saying that she hopes I'll reconsider and someday make amends with my NM, giving sympathy to my mother for a very unhappy life and being incapable of making the needed changes.

It is incredibly triggering to hear people tell adult children of NPs that they should forgive and instead try to set boundaries. Like we haven't tried? Are you kidding? Thousands of $$ in therapist bills, hundreds of $$ in books, websites like this.... and I feel like I'm suddenly being gaslit all over again by someone who should know better.

I wanted to respond to the text (but haven't) asking if she would suggest I stay with an insidiously abusive partner, who I finally got the courage to leave after 4 decades? Of course not.

Welcome to Out of the FOG.

I completely get it. We've been NC with my in-laws for 7 years. We've been radio silent for 4 1/2 of those. And many people don't understand. A few of thoe who don't understand, even, are those who ought to know better. You said it just right: it feels like gaslighting to have them counsel in favor of boundaries and patience. It is triggering and hard.

Many people will have suggestions on how to handle this. I want to respond with one specific angle: I counsel patience and boundaries with these people, and maintenance of the relationships if at all possible. I encourage us to never call these people Flying Monkeys unless they are working on the PD's behalf, as enablers. And this is why I counsel patience with these people (but not with a PD with whom you're NC).

1. We spent 45 years putting up with this crap. My wife was on the business end of it. And yet, one week before NC we were still not NC. I think we have to recognize that if it took us decades to see the light, we cannot just look at other people, point at it, and say "look, the light," and expect them to join us. Everyone is on their own timetable of discovery.

2. They are almost always right. Our experiences with PDs are weird. They are exceptional. They are the rare thing. Normally, when family members have a spat and estrangement exactly the right thing to do is to forgive and forget and move on, perhaps with boundaries. The experiences we've had are hard for people to understand who've never seen it. The impossibility of boundaries, sometimes, seems like an impossibility.

With this person, my suggestion would be to not argue or persuade. My shut-down line in these situations was "Thank you so much for your concern. I know you care about me. I treasure family and take family relationships very seriously. This was a difficult challenge, and I've given it every consideration, and tried every alternative. This is my course and I am dedicated to it and I won't be changing my course. I appreciate your friendship."

If you say it like you are announcing a peace treaty at the end of a war, people will tend to shy away. Good luck.

[NarcKiddo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Hvu5TT8D4&list=PL3QtnfcMTMhG_sBaquE-Y4VeN9kPyj6Hm&index=15

Dr Ramani has much to say on this sort of subject. The above video is just one example.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I've fallen back on a shortened version of what Starboard says above.

"But it's your family! Your mother! Your children's grandparents!"

"Yes, so you appreciate what a horribly difficult situation we were in, that we needed to cut ties for our family's safety."

Awkward silence.

It's okay. Those who know me in any capacity can see for themselves I'm a relatively normal person. I don't have to explain it. It really only ever comes up around holiday and special occasion chit-chat. Those who are close to me know and accept the situation, even if they don't have detailed information. It's really just not relevant to most of my relationships.

[Starboard Song]

"But it's your family! Your mother! Your children's grandparents!"

"Yes, so you appreciate what a horribly difficult situation we were in, that we needed to cut ties for our family's safety."

Awkward silence.

[JustKathy]

Hi 5isRed, and welcome to the forum.

I think we've all heard that line.... But she's your mother. As others have said, if this was an abusive spouse you'd be getting hugs and words of support. But walking away from a parent, especially a mother, is somehow considered taboo and not understood or accepted by most people.

By the time I went NC with my own mother I had been diagnosed with both GAD and PTSD. When I started to have chronic headaches and breathing issues my doctor told me I had to eliminate the source of the stress. So when people questioned my decision to go NC, I kept it short and said that my mother's abuse had caused physical symptoms and that I had to distance myself for health reasons. That would always shut it down. I've found if you make it about your health or personal safety the person won't argue it. At least that's been my experience.

Also, thanks to those who posted the video links. Those were very validating, particularly Josh Connolly's. It helped me a lot.

[easterncappy]

I recently made the decision to cease contact with my NM. There are very few people in my life that know any details about my relationship with her, so it has been a bit of a surprise for one particular person in my life to hear that I've made this decision. I'm honestly baffled by a text from this person saying that she hopes I'll reconsider and someday make amends with my NM, giving sympathy to my mother for a very unhappy life and being incapable of making the needed changes. This person has been horrifically hurt by my mother, and I even made the mistake of trying to make up for it for years before realizing it was not my responsibility and was just part of a pattern of over-developed sense of responsibility on my part, from years of abuse from NM.

I'm looking for resources to read about how to deal with or respond (if I decided it's warranted) to people who say this sort of thing. It is incredibly triggering to hear people tell adult children of NPs that they should forgive and instead try to set boundaries. Like we haven't tried? Are you kidding? Thousands of $$ in therapist bills, hundreds of $$ in books, websites like this.... and I feel like I'm suddenly being gaslit all over again by someone who should know better... who has been told about plenty of the horrible things NM has done (and been on the receiving end of some truly awful behaviors themselves) so there isn't some sudden confusion here. I wanted to respond to the text (but haven't) asking if she would suggest I stay with an insidiously abusive partner, who I finally got the courage to leave after 4 decades? Of course not. But just because this is a mother? Good grief....I am trying not to look for offense here, but it feels like an utter lack of empathy YET AGAIN in life. I don't want to shut this person out of my life, but I am prepared to make a healthy distance, if this is how they're going to behave.

What I always want to say, but can't (I want to remain a little classy): "So what? Any two morons with the right junk can make a baby. Babies are not college degrees you earn after years of hard work, they're little people that come from a few minutes of an easy and fun activity that any adult can do on a whim. The fact that my parents did the bare minimum for CPS to not get called isn't an accomplishment, they'd have done less if they could legally get away with it! What they gave me was barely enough for a dog to survive and not for a human child to thrive. If my husband treated me the way my parents do, you'd tell me to call the police on him! If they wanted me in their lives, they would have treated me better, they had decades to figure it out."

But it's all true, for more mature and well-rounded reasons than how I made it sound. Don't send a text like that, lol.

I have no idea what your childhood was like, but in the book The Ultimate Betrayal (primarily about mothers excusing sex abuse but very informative about the psychology of abusive parents in general), there's a section on when the abused person doesn't want to accept that they were abused. The example it gave was a young lady who was abused by her stepdad with mom covering it up, and when she had children of her own, her mom allowed those children to be abused in a similar manner as well when she babysat. When the therapist tried to explain to her that her mom is at fault here, the young lady didn't take it well. "I get what you're trying to do, you're trying to get me to blame my mom! It's not my mom's fault! She can't help it! She does everything for me! She's a good person! You're wrong!"

Moral of the story (to me): Not everyone wants to accept things for how they are. Not everyone wants help. A lot of PD's and non-PD's (who are that deep in the FOG or may even benefit from the dynamic) are just not going to accept that there's something wrong. These are the kind of people that end up becoming enablers in relationships and families with PD abusers. No point in getting into the reason why, but they do. There's all sorts of potential for being a flying monkey here, or just gaslighting you (not even necessarily intentionally), so it's best to cut your losses and keep this person at a distance. Not necessarily full NC, but you're more than likely just going to get hurt and accomplish nothing if you try to explain these things to them.

[lkdrymom]

I think the older generations were brainwashed to believe that no matter how abusive a parent was they were to receive some sort of honored status that exempted them from any consequences of their actions.  The younger generations have started to realize that they do not have to put up with abusive behavior even from their parents.  60 years ago most women would have to put up with an abusive husband, even their own families would not take them back to protect them.  Now a woman wouldn't think twice about leaving.

A coworker and I bonded over having to manage difficult parents.  Her situation was awful while mine was just very annoying but I was much better at boundaries than she did and she was from a different generation than I was.  Another co-worker who was 20 years older than I would often say to me "but he is your faaaather..." as if that made it all alright.  She had a much better relationship with her parents so she just could not comprehend how I was not willing to sacrifice my life so his wouldn't change.  Plus it was already ingrained in her mind that it was her duty to care for her parents.  Most people who say this do not have a toxic parent to deal with so they just cannot comprehend.  My coworker with a difficult mother said it was such a relief to have me to talk to because she could say how she really felt and not feel judged.

[donutmoonpanda]

Anyone who responds this way to you going NC with your mom, it's about them. It's not about you. They're just thinking about themselves, their experience, their mother, etc., etc. It has no bearing on your situation or your life. In essence, they aren't hearing you. They're just wrapped up in their own experience and not practicing empathy.

Because this person knows your mom, they probably just aren't ready to see the toxic dynamic for what it is, because of what that might mean for them. But if this was someone who didn't know my parents, telling me to abandon NC, I'd likely ask them why they think everyone has the same experience/relationship with their parents as they did.

I struggle to deal with people who think I should just reestablish contact with my PD parents. Just the thought of it is frustrating and offensive, probably because I spent so much of my life feeling unseen by my parents. They scapegoat me, distorted the truth, and made me question myself and my sanity. And for some reason, it's all too easy for people to see my relationships and say "Oh just get over it" or "bury the hatchet with your mom already." They don't care about the facts. It makes me feel invisible and unimportant all over again. I'm right back in that helpless childhood place. Something people tell me on this forum is that I'm all grown up now, I'm not helpless, and I never have to be that helpless kid again. That's what we're doing here. Taking the power back and learning to love ourselves.

[Leonor]

Yeah, right? Like, oh I had no idea she is my motherrrrr. That's why I lived with her when I was growing up ... and her parents are my grandparents! Gosh, it all makes perfect sense now! Thanks so much for your brilliant insight!



Maybe that is the answer: 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Anyone who responds this way to you going NC with your mom, it's about them. It's not about you. They're just thinking about themselves, their experience, their mother, etc., etc. It has no bearing on your situation or your life. In essence, they aren't hearing you. They're just wrapped up in their own experience and not practicing empathy.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

I have a particular friend who has a really really hard time with the fact that our family is NC with our FOOs. It's not about us at all. It's about her denial of her own mother's likely uPD, her grief that her own kids won't grow up with tons of cousins, grief at her own parents' divorce, ideological divisions between her and her siblings, etc. She works really hard for her family relationships, they are still difficult, and us walking away from it all and being content with that result feels like a slap in the face to her and her efforts for "family."

[Liketheducks]

This is totally about them.....

Maybe respond with, "Thank you....I appreciate your concern" and leave it there.   It's none of their business.  And, they'll likely be your first flying monkey when things get hard.

[daughter]

I was fortunate not to receive "but she's your mother" from anyone other than my enabler-NF. He often noted it was my "duty to endure her", for his sake, him as always both acknowledging her bad behavior and dismissing my emotional well-being in his own narcisstic rant.

Had anyone else posed "but she's your mother", my response would've been "yes, and that's not enough reason".  By time I was able to allow myself choice of NC, given I'd been such a submissive and dutiful SG'ed daughter, I was certain of both NC decision's merit, and that no other viable option remained for ME.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

I like this from CatoftheCanals(did I get that right?)    "I know you mean well, but I'm not looking for advice. What I'd really like is a listening ear." Family estrangement makes a lot of people very uncomfortable

I'm a mother estranged from my daughter for 14 years, she's 26  now.  I was alienated from her due to her father/divorce; I tried to be a good mom, but I do think in her eyes I was weak.  Anyhow, I get the same comments to me - and, no one knows how it feels and you don't owe anyone an explanation.  Recently, I got it from my doctor! I wish I had CatCanal's response because I would have used it.  For some people, I might shorten the phrase to just, I'm not looking for advice. 

Family estrangement triggers a lot in people - it happens in families and for a variety of reasons.  If this is what you need, I'm proud of you for doing what's necessary.  This is your one life - live it in the way that brings you joy and connects you with people in a loving, functional way. People often don't say the right thing - it usually doesn't come from a mean place, it's because they feel like they need to "fix it" or offer a solution to something you don't see as needing to be fixed.   

[M0009803]

In my own experiences with this:

There is a high degree of correlation between how detached I was from the dysfunctional situation/family member (UPDm in my case), and how I dealt with external people attempting to get me to mend fences.

The more emotionally detached you are, the easier it is to respond in a neutral but concise way.    The external party may keep bugging you for a few months, but enforcing the boundary is not an issue on your end.  After a while, they go back to their own lives.

Having said that, it was much, much harder to do at the beginning because you are so much more emotionally reactive inside.  You want to explain and justify the reasons for the estrangement because it was just so horrific.

Took me a few years to become detached from the situation. It gets easier if you have your own FOC and you make lots of healthy, happy memories with them.  Your FOO just becomes less important over time.

[TimetoHeal]

What I always want to say, but can't (I want to remain a little classy): "So what? Any two morons with the right junk can make a baby. Babies are not college degrees you earn after years of hard work, they're little people that come from a few minutes of an easy and fun activity that any adult can do on a whim. The fact that my parents did the bare minimum for CPS to not get called isn't an accomplishment, they'd have done less if they could legally get away with it! What they gave me was barely enough for a dog to survive and not for a human child to thrive. If my husband treated me the way my parents do, you'd tell me to call the police on him! If they wanted me in their lives, they would have treated me better, they had decades to figure it out."

I had a friend the other day, when I was spinning over my mom's most recent "meltdown", say, "Well, she gave you life.  Nine months in the womb".     I wanted to, but didn't say, "Yeah, I've been paying for well over 9 months now.  SHE owes ME".     I realize this friend is coming from a place of being an abused daughter herself, still very much in denial.  So I can understand why she said it.  But it still hurt.