Dad won't let it go - not seeing my daughter thing

[p123]

I know I've mentioned this before but he won't let it go - its becoming every week pretty much.

Bit of background. My kids are 19 and 9 now. Both I used to take to visit Dad. He was very strange with them, disinterested. He'd pretty much spend 20 seconds then he'd be on to me, "I had this letter, had this etc". while my kids sat in the corner and watched tv for an hour. It was always and still is now that Dad is absolutely obsessed with making sure I'm around to help him. As such the kids got ignored pretty much.

I even remember once he phoned me he had something important to ask me. It wasn't I can't even remember. I walked in the door with my daughter who was prob 4-5 at the time, and he said "Oh you've brought her".

Dad would often if he swing an extended visit want me to take him for a ride in the car. So my daugher would sit in the car for 30 mins to get there, another 30 mins driving to this country park he liked. He'd always want a cup of tea then he'd want to go home. Of course, my daughter wanted to play om the swings they had there. I remember him saying "yes but I want to go home NOW, and sitting in the car in a mood because I took her on the swings".  IT was always all about him.

One xmas he was in hospital xmas day. I said I'd be there when I could to visit him - no he wanted me there 9am. I said look let me open presents with son (who was 4-5 at the time). I always remember "No I want you there at 9 there'll be other xmases to spend with your kids, I need you to visit me".

Another xmas when he used to visit us for xmas lunch. 30 min drive to get him, 30 min back to our place. Repeat later. Anyway this particular year he was convinced he was ill (he wasn't) and couldn't make it till the GP opened in a few days and needed an ambulance. I'd driven home.  I remember my son 8-9? was waiting at home for me to come back to build one of his presents or something and Dad knew this.
But of course Dad is there "Im calling an ambulance" and stupidly I thought I can't leave him and spent 2-3 hours talking him down. Biggest regret ever for me - son was upset and as you can image so was my wife.

10 year gap between my kids. When I told him we were having kid no 2 he actually said "why are you doing that?" and was really mean about it. At the time, it was obvious all he was thinking about was how me having another kid would divert my attention away from him.

As the years went by, his bad behaviour (along with my brother who I dont speak to) meant he fell out with my wife who doesnt speak to him - his fault. With covid I didnt see him much and I pretty much stopped going at weekends instead going on weeknights so my youngest who was 7 by this time didn't go. Nope he didnt seem to care as long as he had my attention.

At the time too, my brother split up with 2nd partner. Two kids from one relationship, one from another. He doesn't see his kids and Dad doesn't see his grandchildren and doesnt seem bothered. It always struck me as strange that my brother never bothered to force the issue to gain access to his kids and Dad always seemed to agree with him.

So, over the years, Dad has treated me really badly - I still go to see him. I phone him and I know hes got his ticklist in front of him "ask about the family", "ask about work". Sad really.....
Xmas birthdays he makes little effort - xmas time he gave me £200 and said "but the kids something".

Recently hes been moaning that hes not seen my daughter for years. Of course, shes 9 now - she doesn't know him there is no relationship. Hes never ever made a fuss of her - of course she doesn't want to visit him - hes a stranger. But he won't let it go.

I've a feeling its another item on his tick list to be honest. Its struck home that he hasn't seen her and in his eyes "he should". Of course, I can't imagine my wife being too keen - she knows how he treated the kids and his lack of interest in the past. After all, the things hes done in the past. Should I just be thinking you had your chance that boat has sailed.

BUT still I feel mean denying an old man seeing his grandchildren. Not sure if I should be. I've just never ever understood why hes always been like this. Kids he seems to see as an inconvenience. Surely grandparents should dote on their grandkids? Not my Dad.

Not that hes ever made any move as far as I can see to get to see his other grandchildren.

Of course, its going to cause major hassle with my mrs because shes dead set against the kids seeing him because of the lack of interest hes shown in the past. Do I really want to screw up my marriage of 23 years for my selfish Dad?

[square]

He doesn't need to see her.

But I'd be tempted to asknext time he brought it up, "why?" Would just be curious what he said, no difference really.

[wisingup]

p123 - a lot of us here struggle with the "grandparents deserve to see their grandkids" thing. 

Most grandparents do deserve this & it's good for both the grandparents & the grandkids.  But your dad?  No, the above does not apply to him.  He has consistently demonstrated that he is not emotionally safe for her (nor for you for that matter).  Your responsibility is to your daughter - as a parent you should keep her away from this danger.

[Poison Ivy]

 

[p123]

He doesn't need to see her.

But I'd be tempted to asknext time he brought it up, "why?" Would just be curious what he said, no difference really.

Yeh I have asked - "Well I haven't seen her for years".

Which makes it sound more like a tick box exercise.

[p123]

p123 - a lot of us here struggle with the "grandparents deserve to see their grandkids" thing. 

Most grandparents do deserve this & it's good for both the grandparents & the grandkids.  But your dad?  No, the above does not apply to him.  He has consistently demonstrated that he is not emotionally safe for her (nor for you for that matter).  Your responsibility is to your daughter - as a parent you should keep her away from this danger.

Well thats my wifes take - he doesnt REALLY want to see her because all hes interested in is himself - which to be honest is right, so she doesnt daughter forced to see him.

[Srcyu]

You could say to him, "oh, you will have to ask her mother about that."

[nanotech]

I think now he's thinking he will see YOU more if he's more positive towards his granddaughter.
Plus in his mind she's getting old enough to be able to remember him- legacy and all of that.
They'll never get that these bonds have to begin when the child is young, when you do things for them that are purely for the  child ( park swings). The child may not  remember a lot at that time,  but the bonds are built in the first place by the grandparent giving unconditionally. Of course most grandparents get a wonderful feeling from doing just that, so it's win win.
But some just don't get it. Then they wonder why there's little to no relationship. My dad was and is, very similar to yours.
But sometimes they access glimpses of how things should be- a bit of societal pressure. Now and again he will hear reports of other grandparents being ultra generous-  selling their home in order to pay off a grandchild's student loan. My dad couldn't get over this, and kept repeating ' how generous' . Sigh. He then related it to himself, that he wished he'd been given some 'family money'. His parents never owned a home and he often resented that he wasn't left a house. He was an only one so would have got the lot. 
Now, he has his house and substantial  savings too.
Meanwhile he has at least two adult children who could do with help financially -but he doesn't offer. He has a granddaughter who is in need of a car in order to do her job. but again there's no offer. 
It's disappointing but  applying the three 'cs' to it helps.
We didn't cause it
We can't cure it
We can't control it

[Call Me Cordelia]

p: You know this. You know. He is not a normal granddad. He does not care for your daughter any more than he cares for you. That is, not at all. He has his own agenda. You aren't being mean to him by lessening the amount of terrible treatment that gets kicked down to the next generation. You know.

And yet, here you are again.

I recognize those feelings, but we're no longer in contact with my parents. There's still a part of me that just wants normal family relationships, still grieves when my kids ask something about their grandparents or when a holiday rolls around when it would be "normal" to prioritize time with extended family. There's still FOG. Even remembering they were completely of the couldn't be bothered with the grandkids type. Until I quit, and THEN their grandkids were so important they would go to any lengths to gain access to them.  But still, I occasionally wonder how they are holding up and whether they are just crushed!!!

And that's even having been completely out of contact for five years. I can only imagine the internal conflict if I were trying to maintain even a tenuous relationship with them. Because ALL the work is on us in that proposition. Sure, your dad spins and spins about, "Make a big effort," and he needs groceries or whatever, but his "efforts" at relationship with you actively undermine it, every stinkin' time. Basically you are left piling sand on a sand pile while he tunnels beneath it, demanding you pile on more and more. There should be a mountain at this point based on the work you've put in, but there isn't. It's nothing but a mess. It's obvious why. But you keeping piling on the sand and he just piles on the blame and shame. My question to you is what about this dysfunctional dance actually is working for you? There's something holding you in it.

I also notice he has your daughter in his crosshairs but not your son. That's strange.

[p123]

I think now he's thinking he will see YOU more if he's more positive towards his granddaughter.
Plus in his mind she's getting old enough to be able to remember him- legacy and all of that.
They'll never get that these bonds have to begin when the child is young, when you do things for them that are purely for the  child ( park swings). The child may not  remember a lot at that time,  but the bonds are built in the first place by the grandparent giving unconditionally. Of course most grandparents get a wonderful feeling from doing just that, so it's win win.
But some just don't get it. Then they wonder why there's little to no relationship. My dad was and is, very similar to yours.
But sometimes they access glimpses of how things should be- a bit of societal pressure. Now and again he will hear reports of other grandparents being ultra generous-  selling their home in order to pay off a grandchild's student loan. My dad couldn't get over this, and kept repeating ' how generous' . Sigh. He then related it to himself, that he wished he'd been given some 'family money'. His parents never owned a home and he often resented that he wasn't left a house. He was an only one so would have got the lot. 
Now, he has his house and substantial  savings too.
Meanwhile he has at least two adult children who could do with help financially -but he doesn't offer. He has a granddaughter who is in need of a car in order to do her job. but again there's no offer. 
It's disappointing but  applying the three 'cs' to it helps.
We didn't cause it
We can't cure it
We can't control it

Yes deffo and it think its sinking in with him that his grandchildren dont want to know him....

Like you said most grand parents make an effort but for him for years on a day-to-day basis its all ME ME ME. I don't he ever did all this deliberately hes just so wrapped in what HE needs.

[p123]

p: You know this. You know. He is not a normal granddad. He does not care for your daughter any more than he cares for you. That is, not at all. He has his own agenda. You aren't being mean to him by lessening the amount of terrible treatment that gets kicked down to the next generation. You know.

And yet, here you are again.

I recognize those feelings, but we're no longer in contact with my parents. There's still a part of me that just wants normal family relationships, still grieves when my kids ask something about their grandparents or when a holiday rolls around when it would be "normal" to prioritize time with extended family. There's still FOG. Even remembering they were completely of the couldn't be bothered with the grandkids type. Until I quit, and THEN their grandkids were so important they would go to any lengths to gain access to them.  But still, I occasionally wonder how they are holding up and whether they are just crushed!!!

And that's even having been completely out of contact for five years. I can only imagine the internal conflict if I were trying to maintain even a tenuous relationship with them. Because ALL the work is on us in that proposition. Sure, your dad spins and spins about, "Make a big effort," and he needs groceries or whatever, but his "efforts" at relationship with you actively undermine it, every stinkin' time. Basically you are left piling sand on a sand pile while he tunnels beneath it, demanding you pile on more and more. There should be a mountain at this point based on the work you've put in, but there isn't. It's nothing but a mess. It's obvious why. But you keeping piling on the sand and he just piles on the blame and shame. My question to you is what about this dysfunctional dance actually is working for you? There's something holding you in it.

I also notice he has your daughter in his crosshairs but not your son. That's strange.

Yes strange about my son - hes not mentioned him. I just assumed well hes 19 now so its his decision so Dad hasnt pushed that because I can't make him. My daugher he sees as someone I can "make" go see him. hes always been like that - kids should be seen and not heard and you have to tell them no if the adults have a reason.

I can't really remember my childhood but hes never ever put my kids as a priority, I dread to think what he was like with me.

[Outsiderchild]

It could be that now that your daughter is nine she is getting old enough to useful to him. She isn't an infant or toddler that needs care anymore  After all it is more traditional for the womenfolk of a family to be the caretakers.  Time to groom another generation to fetch and carry for him.  What happens if you leave?  Who is going to take over your responsibilities to care for him?  This is such an instinct for narcissists to always have someone next on the list to be used.  He can feel you pulling away, who's next in line?  Not your son, he's in college, not your wife, she has made that clear, that leaves your daughter.   The real question is are you going to allow that to happen?

[Rose1]

Setting up the next generation of carers maybe?

[Boat Babe]

On top of all the excellent feedback that people have given you, I want to answer the last sentence in your original post on this thread. Please do not damage the relationship that you have with your wife because of your father. From what I have gleaned from your posts since you've been here is that she sounds pretty awesome. I really suggest you focus on her and the kids.

[Happypants]

"Hhhhhhmmmmmm, my usual tactics didn't work last time    P123 seems to be pushing back against my guilt trips  I'm losing control over him  I guess I'd better start showing some interest in his kids "

[p123]

It could be that now that your daughter is nine she is getting old enough to useful to him. She isn't an infant or toddler that needs care anymore  After all it is more traditional for the womenfolk of a family to be the caretakers.  Time to groom another generation to fetch and carry for him.  What happens if you leave?  Who is going to take over your responsibilities to care for him?  This is such an instinct for narcissists to always have someone next on the list to be used.  He can feel you pulling away, who's next in line?  Not your son, he's in college, not your wife, she has made that clear, that leaves your daughter.   The real question is are you going to allow that to happen?

Hmmm. Not sure.... To be honest, I think its more of tick box exercise from him.

[p123]

On top of all the excellent feedback that people have given you, I want to answer the last sentence in your original post on this thread. Please do not damage the relationship that you have with your wife because of your father. From what I have gleaned from your posts since you've been here is that she sounds pretty awesome. I really suggest you focus on her and the kids.

yeh of course. I know that. All of this, absolutely all the hassle ever has been caused by Dad and no-one else.

[p123]

"Hhhhhhmmmmmm, my usual tactics didn't work last time    P123 seems to be pushing back against my guilt trips  I'm losing control over him  I guess I'd better start showing some interest in his kids "

You're right there..... Like I said went for years where they weren't important. All that was important to him was getting me there..... Like I said he used to see them as an irritant I'm sure.

About a year ago, he was trying to get me to something, I couldn't do it had something with one of the kids. And he basically said something like, just tell them no you have to do this for me. I went mad at the time and told him that as far as I could see he was not even interested - all he cared about was what he could get me to do.

Now I've seen it - hes actually got a list - every call is scripted. His list says "ask about family", "ask about kids", "ask about work". He does this and every phone call he trots it out first up. Its so false. All so he can say "but I always ask how the kids are". How many years they didnt get a mention? And not being funny if you've got to make a list to stop yourself forgetting there are other people in the world then theres something wrong.

I know he sits there and mulls things over. 99.9% of the time his brain is filled with woe is me, I'm so ill, I need my kids to do this that and the other. There is no joy or nice things he ever thinks about. His brain is so filled wit ME, ME, ME like this he hasnt got room to think of anyone else. All he needs is to make sure hes got me on the hook.

What will have happened , bearing in mind its years now, theres been a chink in his ME, ME, ME and hes thought "hang on I havent seen the kids in x years". Like I said took him long enought to work that one day but thats Dad to a T. Nothing is as important as HIM.

Now he'll be obsessed because hes also got his idea of how the world works. He doesn't WANT to see my kids but in his world they SHOULD want to come to see him, and in a way pay homage and respects. If they visited it'd be the same, he'd be glad he'd ticked the box but he still wouldnt bother.

Now I know all this but yes hes a massive nightmare. BUT I just don't have the courage to sit him down and tell him all of this...

[square]

You don't need the courage because there's no need to bother. He would not hear you.

Nothing for you to do except accept that he will bring it up and be ready to shrug it off like a very very tiny gnat that you won't devote more than two brain cells to for a fraction of a second.

[lkdrymom]

I'd point out to him that the last 50 times your brought over his granddaughter he seemed disappointed that she was there.  Tell him she got the hint and will not be visiting. I also agree with the other poster that said now she is of an age where she might be useful to him.  Fetching him this or that. 

My father did the same thing.  Would ask how the kids were then stop listening 5 seconds in.  They know they are supposed to ask but they really don't care. They are just waiting for the moment when we can go back to talking about them.